US Soldier Uses the Quran for Target Practice

Originally posted by TKainZero
reply to post by bodrul

 

The legal effects of the constituion may stop when you leave the US soil.


But the free thought of the mind and free actions of one does not stop.

I would rather Americans have the 'label' of being rude, rather then being a nation of whimps.

Is shooting the quran a good way to make muslem friends, probaly not.
Is it a good way to express you freedom, probaly...

Question? Is it illigal to shoot the quran in Iraq or other muslem countries? Or is it against Mulesm religion?

TKain,
Instead of having the "label" of being rude, why can't we have the 'label" of respect? We can talk about free speech till we're blue in the face but since this incident happened off base - he's subject to the laws of Iraq. Luckily for him, he left the country before he was subjected to the Law of Iraq. Had he done this in public - he wouldn't be living today. I know it's difficult for us westerners to understand this because we live under the presumed separation of church and state but Iraq holds no value on such a separation i.e. Shia Law. The civil and religious laws of Iraq are one in the same. At any rate, had he done this on American soil would it be as big a deal - probably not; however, he desecrated the holy book of Islam on Islamic soil - do you see the insult in that? Not to mention the fact that it just added tremendous insult to injury.

Also, you said:

"But the free thought of the mind and free actions of one does not stop." I kinda see where you're going but it's almost seems to be a justification for any action so long as it is done freely. You could go sniper off the top of the empire state building while invoking your "free thought and free action" but that does not, in any way, make it an honorable and righteous thing to do. Freedom comes with a checks and balances system called responsibility and this soldiers actions were far from responsible.

reply to post by maria_stardust


Not to thread bump or advertise my own contributions, but to all of you people making vast generalizations without merit, please read this thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Or at least this article
www.csmonitor.com...

Various studies of Muslim terrorists show that most are not graduates of madrassahs but of private or public schools and universities; most are from middle- and working-class backgrounds; some are devout and others are not. This survey confirms these findings:

•Among the Muslims surveyed, 7 percent condoned the 9/11 attacks. The study terms these the "politically radicalized."

•When asked why they supported the attacks, the radicals gave political rather than religious reasons. They have a sense of political frustration and feel humiliated and threatened by the West. Those who opposed the attacks often gave religious reasons for doing so.

•The radicals, on average, are not the down-and-out people in society. They are more educated than moderates, and two-thirds of radicals have average or above-average income. Forty-seven percent supervise others at work. They are more optimistic about their own lives than are moderates (52 percent to 45 percent).

•Radicals are no more religious than the general population and do not attend mosque more frequently.

•What distinguishes them is not their perception of Western culture or freedoms, but their perception of US policies. Even radicals say they support democracy. But 63 percent of radicals do not believe that the United States will allow people in the region to fashion their own political future without direct US influence.

in closing my contribution to this topic, id like to say that i really don't want to kill all the muslims in the world. I was using this forum to excorcise a demon that has been lurking in my head since 9/11 and after hearing everyones worst sides come out, some positve therapy has occurred. (for me)
my personal beliefs align more with live and let live.

i apologize to anyone i offended.

i do want to see radical regligious fundamentalism destroyed, any kind, from islamic to baptists who bomb abortion clinics or shoot doctors to scientologists who kill people rolled up in carpet. Unfortunately, becuase religion is so deeply personal, even if you kill them all, one sneaky one will have said something to someone and it all comes back worse becuase of the martyrdom.

the answer i believe is in education and sharing.
if the people in palestine were given an influx of support from other countries, maybe the islamics would back off of their oppression of the isrealis (who are not entirely innocent in anything they do either)



walk in the light. avoid interfering with the development of another person.


~elgoog~

Why is it always demons? Why do some christians feel it necessary to puke out all their demons into a paper bag when they go on retreats? It's true! A book recently came out by one of the "real time" with bill maher reporters who was recently on the daily show with john stewart to talk about this new book (can't remember his name). For a few weeks he pretended to be an evangelical christian. He went to the retreats, he went to the sermons, etc. One of his retreats involved puking out your demons into a paper bag. That's only the beginning of the wierdness..

For religion, convincing mankind that everyone is possessed by demons is good for business. It wracks people with guilt, it makes people believe they are possessed when they are not, and it instills an insanity into the culture that you an only see from an outsiders perspective.

Invisible demons are the least of our problems at this point.. People instilled with the fear of demons inside them get so paranoid that it is borderline unhealthy. They then believe that this demon must be in them because of all the guilt right? It's religious idealism mixed with paranoia and fear-mongering. But so many people just buy it as truth.

Religion is evil because makind is evil. The entire concept of religious purity is based on denial of people to accept any kind of "impurity" which they perceive as being unholy or evil. Such purity only exists in the minds of crazy people who aren't willing to accept their human faults and move on with life. Religious fundamentalism scares the crap out of me.

-ChriS

It could have been worst !!! He could have used the pages as TP !!!

Oh but its ok for Muslims to burn bibles and American flags though isn't it?
If it was his own Koran he bought then its his property and he can do whatever he darn well likes with it.
Heck he can eat it for all I care.Wipe his behind with it.
Just another load of double standard crap.
The free world DOES NOT live under the laws of the Islamic cult.
And no one, HAS to respect anyone else's religion/cult.
IF THEY DON'T WANT TO!!.

reply to post by vor78


American domestic law can not be applied abroad. Any suggestion that his actions are protected by US law while abroad is nothing short of claiming might is right , and that America is acting us an imperial power.

Seriously....if you want to boost suicide bomber recruitment you couldn't go about it in a better fashion.

That soldier is either the dumbest person in the world and should not be given a firearm...OR he did it under orders to stoke the flames of Islamic extremism further.

[This is my first ever post or second - can't remember]

I've read through the pages and decided to drop some knowledge on this thread for those who are just blaggin' hate speech ect.

Yes, I understand Free Speech, Free Opinions and all the rest, so I'm not gonna stop you from doin' anything. Yet those that are makin' 'claims of facts', I would urge them to show proof/evidence to support their comments and I'm sure we would all appreciate that.

First off, The Holy Qur'an as a target to practice fire-aim is 100% completely wrong in every Muslim's eyes (I speak for every Muslim when I say that).

Secondly, "So what the soldier did this, its only a book" - true, but to Muslims it's absolutley more that JUST a book, its considered the perfect and complete Word Of God and deliberatly offending the Qur'an other-wise is disrespectful, wrong and offensive on a unimaginable scale.

Third, "When Muslims burn or shoot or disrespect a Bible, why are they not punished or taken into account?" - HERE'S the Fact that many do not know, as Muslims we HAVE TO accept parts of the Bible as the Word Of God, we too must cherish and protect the Bible as it was recieved by Isah (AS - Jesus) from God. So any Muslim who disrespects the Bible in such-a-manner (e.g. burning, urinating, spitting, shooting, tearing, etc.) is considered not to be a Muslim or aleast not a very good one.

Forth and finally, I live as - 'Think, make sure, then speak or act'. Basically those who offend or speak wrong of others, without knowledge of them, are being predjudice. As I can say, the Post-9/11 world we live in today has unfortunately portrayed Muslims as 'negative' people, we must remember that a small minority of Muslims DO NOT represent the Muslim population as a whole.

Conclusively - "Can the soldier's apollogy be accepted? Can he be forgiven?" - Well no-one should use any book as a target anyway - it's just common sense. I really don't know if the soldier can be forgiven, if it's a non-Muslim, then most likely not, I'm not entirely sure. It is not me who decides the forgivness, it's God decision and the soldier's will for seeking forgiveness.

P.S. Sorry for the long post, but some things just have to be said and defended.

("When a cause comes along and you know in your bones that it is just, yet refuse to defend it--at that moment you begin to die. And I have never seen so many corpses walking around talking about justice." - Mumia Abu-Jamal)

But its ok for them to burn American or any western flags?
They should shoot them on sight for everytime they do that..I once saw on the news a Greek Cypriot trying to take down a Turkish flag on a pole, one shot in the head was the result...show some respect for our flags and we might do the same for that friggin' book discriminating jews and non-muslims in more then 20 verses ..

Would it have been OK if he was shooting The Holy Bible?

How about "Of Mice and Men" or "Silence of the Lambs"?

It's a book... get over it, people.

Anyone upset over this needs to look in the mirror and take control of their own life. It seems very petty for anyone to judge someone else for not respecting a book, like they think they should.

The bottom line: this man shot a book that meant nothing to him. If you think he should be punished, then I think YOU should be punished!

Originally posted by proteus33
its a flippin book get over it already. its not like its the last copy. if that soldier was trying to make a point by doing this shouldn't his right to express himself be protected under first amendment. i do understand we are over there illegally to limit oil production to keep profits high for oil companies. and no i am not a muslim hater. but its a book last year they wanted to kill a teacher because she picked up a klids backpack that contained supposedly a quran. in my opinion to many people bend over backwards trying to appease muslims. true soldier had poor taste in targets but at least he wasn't using iraqi civilians

First off, I want to apologize to anyone if my point I'm about to make has already been made.

The 1st Amendment rights protect this man while he is IN THE UNITED STATES! Not while he is in another country, a country that holds this book very dear to their hearts. So that argument is dead before you can even get it started. What this man did was intentionally try to inflame the situation that is already strained. To me, if someone took a copy of the Bible and shot it up I would have no issues with them at all. If they were an American citizen and it was done in America. Now, if we were being occupied and the bulk of our country was Christian and one of the occupying soldiers did it knowing that it was a slap in our faces, I would probably be a little pissed off.

So, we have to remove the rights of a U.S. Citizen from this mix because it did NOT take place on U.S. soil. Period. *NOT FLAMED*

Originally posted by ninecrimes
Would it have been OK if he was shooting The Holy Bible?

How about "Of Mice and Men" or "Silence of the Lambs"?

It's a book... get over it, people.

Anyone upset over this needs to look in the mirror and take control of their own life. It seems very petty for anyone to judge someone else for not respecting a book, like they think they should.

The bottom line: this man shot a book that meant nothing to him. If you think he should be punished, then I think YOU should be punished!

You see, this stance is fine for those of us that hold no value in the book. What you all that are taking this stance are ignoring is the very real fact that there are 1 billion people that DO hold this book VERY close to their hearts and revere it. To them it is MUCH more than a book. So when someone who is representing our nation as a whole, a nation made up of ALL religions and ALL nations, goes and does something like this it becomes much more than someone just shooting a book.

If you can't see that then you are purposefully being ignorant on this very sensative subject. What he did was wrong. Does he deserve to serve prison time for it? Hell no. Would he have if he had done it and was a citizen of the country he did it in? Probably. He would have also been lashed. And in some other countries he would have been executed.

You see, just because it means nothing to you does not make this a trivial experience. It's actually quite serious and I think he should be seriously reprimanded at the least for it. He is representing our nation that has already had its image damaged way too much over the past couple decades in the world's view.

lol who cares. its a fairy tale book. no sympathy for any religion from me.

And these people over there are not peaceful muslims. Thats ABSURD.

What about the 1000s of times muslims have done the same to the bible? They didnt apoligise.

Yeah thats right, this goes both ways.

Religion is a sin.



[edit on 21-7-2009 by jeasahtheseer]

Originally posted by dariousg

Originally posted by ninecrimes
Would it have been OK if he was shooting The Holy Bible?

How about "Of Mice and Men" or "Silence of the Lambs"?

It's a book... get over it, people.

Anyone upset over this needs to look in the mirror and take control of their own life. It seems very petty for anyone to judge someone else for not respecting a book, like they think they should.

The bottom line: this man shot a book that meant nothing to him. If you think he should be punished, then I think YOU should be punished!

You see, this stance is fine for those of us that hold no value in the book. What you all that are taking this stance are ignoring is the very real fact that there are 1 billion people that DO hold this book VERY close to their hearts and revere it. To them it is MUCH more than a book. So when someone who is representing our nation as a whole, a nation made up of ALL religions and ALL nations, goes and does something like this it becomes much more than someone just shooting a book.

If you can't see that then you are purposefully being ignorant on this very sensative subject. What he did was wrong. Does he deserve to serve prison time for it? Hell no. Would he have if he had done it and was a citizen of the country he did it in? Probably. He would have also been lashed. And in some other countries he would have been executed.

You see, just because it means nothing to you does not make this a trivial experience. It's actually quite serious and I think he should be seriously reprimanded at the least for it. He is representing our nation that has already had its image damaged way too much over the past couple decades in the world's view.

So what? Why do I care what someone else believes in, especially if they are so fanatical about a book and cry when someone demonstrates their free will / opinion against it. Again, they should take a look in the mirror and wonder why they are so crazy about a book. The fact remains, this book was not the only copy, and it was (I assume) his property to do with as he wishes.

**It is just as much my right to shoot/hate a book, as it is your right to worship/love it.**

What if someone shot a copy of the Star Wars trilogy on DVD? I am a huge Star Wars fan (if you want to talk about religion, there is a Jedi religion), but I don't think anyone would care when I cry about it.

Bottom line: it's not the only copy. It was his property. If anyone has an issue with what people do with their own materials, they are controlling and maniacal and maybe THEY would make for better target practice than the book itself.

**It is not anyone's right to tell someone that they cannot shoot, burn, defecate on, send into orbit, or simply read a book, so long as they worked to acquire the book in question with their own earned funds.**

reply to post by NovusOrdoMundi


Exactly! Oh and it's all right for Muslims to destroy articles of other faiths. People need to stop this double standard! The Muslims have no problem trying to stamp out any other religion, but allah help you if do anything to theirs!!

Originally posted by vor78
While I disagree with his actions, he has freedom of speech and expression as protected by the First Amendment.

I know this may come as a shock to you, but your constitution doesn't apply outside America. I will leave you to try and get your head around that earth-shattering revelation.

[edit on 21-7-2009 by CRB86]

Originally posted by CRB86

Originally posted by vor78
While I disagree with his actions, he has freedom of speech and expression as protected by the First Amendment.

I know this may come as a shock to you, but your constitution doesn't apply outside America. I will leave you to try and get your head around that earth-shattering revelation.

[edit on 21-7-2009 by CRB86]

Not when you're an American with an M-16 and kevlar.

Come on man, if you're going to be so sarcastic whilst contributing nothing to the discussion at hand- at least come up with something a bit more credible.

reply to post by proteus33



It is the symbolism of the book proteus, yes it was physically just a book but that book represents what these people live, kill, and die for.

I am neither muslim or religious but comeon, get some common sense about ya.

I did not read your full post because it was pretty lame from the start, but you said something about the first amendment....you do realise this was not done in the US right? We are working in a hoste country, we should be respecting that countrys culture

Originally posted by Sky watcher
reply to post by WickedStar

 

If you were getting shot at by the peaceful Muslims everyday do you think you would give two craps about their satanic book?

I would burn every copy I got my hands on because it is a work of the devil.

With statements like this so common (to lesser and greater degrees of ignorance and prejudice) it is unsurprising to me (and should be to most rational people) why many extremists are claiming Jihad... and getting an increasing amount of adherents. If a Muslim, or anyone else for that matter, said the exact same thing, yet replaced "muslim" with "christian", then the Christians would be screaming bloody murder and advocating their own form of jihad (holy war).

My point is simply that the rules need to apply equally to everyone. If its ok for an American to

burn every copy I got my hands on because it is a work of the devil

then its equally ok for an Iraqi to do the same to the Jew's and Christian's

satanic book

.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and a lot of Germans in the '40s exercised their freedom of expression by burning Jewish scriptures (among much else). But that of course wasn't indicative of a systemic mental sickness either...

It's clear, by the nature of the action itself and where it was committed, that it was nothing at all akin to shooting at a Star Wars movie (or the like, but nice red herrings...) but was a deliberate action intended to provoke muslims. That or they really didn't understand what they were doing and should probably be sent back to special ed.

[edit on 21-7-2009 by dangerouslogic]