Question for posters from Mainland China

Originally posted by purplemonkey

google + 'Peking Review' = first link

heres the link

homepage.mac.com...

i could say it... but you already know...

Well, I have told many others in ATS when a provided link is blocked here. This first page is among one of the blocked site. google.cn (re-direct of .com)

Not ashamed for it, I do get annoyed.

How about The Messenger?

reply to post by IchiNiSan


So you're Dutch.
OK, you might see a transparent market driven future for China, but would you car to comment on present conditions? Beacause China is a long way from being the type of state you envision for its future.

Could you comment on the standard of living in the rural areas?
How about education levels China-wide?
Why are so many minority groups clumped together far from industrial centers?

You're obviously very knowledgable about China, but in response to your friend's quote about the antiquity of Chinese culture and to your following remarks about ignorance, I don't see what the Era of Warring States has to do with present day China.

So instead of giving us a lesson in how tactful the Dutch can be, why don't you address the points I made?

Also, this Chinese Unity thing you mentioned is a lie, and even if people say that they "feel Unity and pride in China" or whatever Nationalist sentiment your saying is pervasive, how can we believe them with a Governemnt gun held to their heads? I find it hard to believe that this is a real sentiment, especially when whole communities know that they are expendable.

And like I said, real Chinese people aren't on ATS.

when china is strong enough,all your questions will no longer problems.china has never been a warlike and aggressive nation in it whole 5000year history,chinese mentality is family oriented and tolerating others,the rest of the world dont at all need to worry about a strong china.

reply to post by djerwulfe


I do have to say that you will be one of those guys I normally would not reply on, because one of the first posts I see is an outcry that we are agents and blablabla. Anyhow, I will give it a shot:

For each of your questions, I could write a whole essay about. But here is some comments and responses quickly.

Market driven China has been for a long time by now, transparant? Not yet, but in the more developed area this transparancy is slowly being shown.

Standard of living in rural areas is low, we are only a under-developed country with over 90% poor people. Basics to developed nations like a simple black/white TV is a luxury to hundreds of millions.

Education level is improving fast still very low, because drop-outs is pretty high, economic driven, and it requires a higher requirement (monetary and school results) for one to go to the university. Without a scholarship, many bright minds would need to start looking for a job at early age.

Minorities are freely to move to the more developed regions, namely "special economic zones". Tring, there is a "free will" involved, and these minorities can decide where they want to live, nobody is forcing them to stay at their birth places. Would you trust me if I say that actually minorities are having even more rights than Han Chinese? Like no one-child policy? Even more education subsidies?

Huh? What Warring States Era? Oh that quote. So you believe we only had tribes and kingdoms during the Warring States era? Hmmmm. I will re-post another post in here after I finished this one. It was a conversation with an American about the "foundation", he explained to me about the constitution and some history, I also tried to explain a bit. Maybe it might shed more lights then.

Dutch? No the reason I am born and raised in Holland, doesn't mean my blood is not all Chinese My family tree in Hong Kong goes back 27 generation before my humble name pop up Chinese diaspora because of wars, economic, political reasons and so on is very common and widespread for the past centuries or maybe even earlier.

And I do not dare to give anyone a "lesson". This is a forum; holding conversations, debates and sharing of information, communications between different people with different opinions and background and so on and so on, is her main purpose I always presumed. I might be more outspoken in certain topics, because I do feel I can contribute more on it then someone only having listened the stories from afar or from some skewed media.

"Chinese unity is a lie". *sigh* Where are you living by the way? Ever checked the last months what is brewing and going on the the Overseas Chinese communities? Ever bothered to even visit China and see it with your own eyes becfore making such a comment?

"And like I said, real Chinese people aren't on ATS." *Sigh*, At least for your own satisfaction, you are not the only one claiming these kinds of accusations in ATS. A board supposed to be denying ignorance....

I have to tackle the "founding of China" in two parts. (This was in response to a conversation with an American about the founding).

Culture - Chinese civilization:
This started about 5000 years ago (unlike the link you have shown). And almost every single Chinese you encounter will tell you that the founder of Chinese civilization is HuangDi (Yellow Emporer) at the Yellow River area. This legend defeated and subdued his main rival YanDi, even back then we don't "exterminate" an enemy, but try to win them over. Together they conquered all the other Tribes. This is also when the common written language was born, but even up untill today there are a numerous spoken dialects. Same grammar, but the speaking can be so different that I will never be able to understand Fujian Language for example. Ironically it was this complicated written Chinese characters that made it a big obstacle for the common uneducated people to learn and therefore education was mainly only for the elites and I'm sure many writings and knowledge were lost in history. So the Chinese will tell you we are the "Descendants of YanHuang", note the credit to the defeated YanDi. Legend says at the end a Dragon came down and brought HuangDi to the Heaven. This is also why the Chinese dragons is having such an important role in our culture. Afterwards, the first really recorded (re-)united dynasty started of with the Xia Dynasty (2100BC) 600-900 years after HuangDi. Then came the Shang Dynasty and Zhou Dynasty. The latter one was breaking up and it is commonly considered that the periods of Spring & Autumn and Warring States were a seperate era and one of the longest periods of instability and continuous warring between hundreds of states. Big philosophers and legends were born in this period. Confucius' teaching is the most well-known and is still influencing the Chinese culture after many dynasties and later empires introduced it to state-level. It was also during these instable warring era that many emigrated to Japan and spread throughout Asia. Then there was one state and man who united China again and established the Qin Dynasty (221BC), calling himself the First Emporer "Shi Huangdi", the arrogance to use HuangDi's name is striking. It was also this "Qin" name that China is called "China" in English, his other legacies is the Great Wall and real unity. This empire died off as quickly as it was established, and eventually the Han Dynasty was established. This and the Tang Dynasty are giving the name of "Han Chinese", a Chinese will call himself "Chinese", "Han people" or "Tang people". Buddhism became the mainstream religion during these two golden Chinese dynasties. From the Xia to the Qing Dynasty (last one) we followed the same patterns again. "Long period" of unity & properity, "short period" of destablization & wars, then "unity & prosperity" again. However, during these periods we had not "exterminated" a "minority" at all, that's why you can still see over 56 ethnicities in China as of today. Han Chinese were living with these ethnicities at odds, but always trying to be peacefully together. It was during this relatively long period of unity & prosperity that we are always falling back in development. While the European nations HAD to continuous compete with each other and therefore improve, it was the stability that had set us behind the European development at a certain moment. It was during the Qianlong emporer era that we peaked in the Qing dynasty, but it was also Qianlong himself at his later age who somehow made the unbelievable call to not embrace science and "foreign technologies" unlike the Japanese, seems like great leaders can make incredibly bad decisions when they get old. The legacies is over 150 years of black humilating pages in the history books.
(And I still feel I have not covered anything at all about Chinese history)

Current China:
The fall of the dynasty actually happened when China decided not to be part of the technological and industrial revolution. We became xenophobic and isolated ourselves from the world later on while the world was developing herself. The colonial period and having empirialists knocking on our door "to have their fair share" are still very fresh in memory to many. After all, this is relatively only a very short period ago. We stepped into a new period of instability and wars, with all the suffering for hundreds of millions as a result. Among it foreign invasions (Japan and Colonial powers, including America), rebellions and civil wars were marking the end of "stability". We had the patriotic anti-colonists/empirialist boxer rebellions to counter the foreign influences and to not become another broken up colony and in response from the empirialists the most horrific event was the 8-nation invasion of Beijing in 1900, in which the eight countries USA, UK, Japan, Germany, France, Austria-Hungary, Russia and Italy. The humiliation increased the growth of nationalism and the resentment against the "foreigner" (White and Japanese). The cry for modernization helped the Republic of China to overthrow the Qing dynasty officially, lead by the "founder" Sun Zhong San. However, the ROC was incapable of handling the strong foreign forces, losing territories here and there, and warlords all over China declaring themselves as "local kings", effectively China was breaking up. Meanwhile in Europe you guys were fighting the "World War 1" and communism was uprising. It was then that a civil war started between the communists and the ROC, the Americans choosed the side of ROC. Japan took this opportunity and invaded China again, this time with the intention to conquer the whole of China. We have the Jewish holocaust equivalent known as the "Rape of Nanjing", which Japan untill today still denies it ever happened. When Japan is defeated in the World War2 by the allied forces (incl Chinese), the civil war continued untill 1949. The communists defeated the ROC and they need to withdraw to the island Taiwan (over 50 years under Japanese occupation/colony). And the People's Republic of China is established. With a strong leadership, the PRC tried to pull all the broken pieces together of the former Qing dynasty in those first years of ruling, and you see in your landmap the China of today. The Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution were two disastrious periods, but in 1979 Deng Xiaoping pulled us together again and started the peaceful opening up of China in an unprecedented way. We have abandoned collectivism, and embraced capitalism, so how "communistic" we are still? "Communism" was only succesful when we added "Chinese characteristics" to it and we are moving towards a system ruled by the Law and constitution.

This is in short the history, and I still miss a lot.

reply to post by djerwulfe


One pictures says more than a 1000 words, we say in China....






Note: Last picture in Hong Kong

These are simple citizens, and nobody is putting a gun in their head to cry.


[edit on 20/5/08 by IchiNiSan]

Originally posted by IchiNiSan

P.s. Are The Messenger and the Peking Review online publications? Can not find it in google, can you share the link or contact details? (To my U2U is also fine)

[edit on 19/5/08 by IchiNiSan]

My point was proven within another post.

try : www.bjreview.com...

and then: english.cri.cn...

These sites should be open to Chinese nationals within country.

reply to post by hinky


Ah so it is called Beijing Review Yes both are opened without troubles. Thank you!

ARROGANT AMERICAN ALERT!!!
ARROGANT AMERICAN ALERT!!!

Beijing - Peking... aren't they the same to old Americans?

ARROGANT ALERT is over....

reply to post by hinky


i just openned the sites you recommanded,pretty good sites.now we can access all major foreign websites in china,youtube,wikipedia...,afterall ,china has the most internet users in the world,america comes a close second.and internet is a impossible thing to control.

reply to post by hinky


Hahaha, I only started using "Beijing" about 3 years ago, even then up untill today I mix it. Always used Peking in Holland, untill I start to learn "PuTongHua" (instead of "Mandarin") 2 years ago !





[edit on 20/5/08 by IchiNiSan]

Originally posted by IchiNiSan

Well, I have told many others in ATS when a provided link is blocked here. This first page is among one of the blocked site. google.cn (re-direct of .com)

try google.ca (google canada)

last time i was in Shanghai it loaded without re-directing to .cn, might still work.

Originally posted by haidian
when china is strong enough,all your questions will no longer problems.china has never been a warlike and aggressive nation in it whole 5000year history,chinese mentality is family oriented and tolerating others,the rest of the world dont at all need to worry about a strong china.

oh really.... then why did the Chinese invent the crossbow, repeating crossbow, fire arrows, gun powder, rockets, guns, flame throwers, landmines, exploding cannon balls, sun zi art of war... ect...

they are not a member of the 'Australia group', they possess nuclear weapons, plus they have several ballistic missiles aimed at Tiawan. just to name a few things off the top of my head.

reply to post by purplemonkey


Yes, that Taiwanese obsession to reflect how evil China is tend to be something which is always being raised up somehow

reply to post by IchiNiSan


that was merely one example... and is the fact that i pointed out wrong... or do you just like to deny it?

reply to post by purplemonkey


Well I think my English is not that bad, how come you think I am denying those useless missiles?

I am merely making a comment on an observation I see around me

"1. Would you generally be in favor of annexing Taiwan even if it meant through armed forces."

There is no need to "annex" Taiwan. The new President of Taiwan is heavily Pro China and was elected because of it. 70% of the Tawainese people want close relations with China, eventually it will be unification.






" 2. Would you put strong pressure on the USA to leave the Pacific region and give up its bases in South Korea, Japan, Guam, Taiwan"

No need to force anyone to do anything. The USA presence allows CHina to learn USA capabilities.





3. If the only way to accomplish either of the previous two objectives would be to threaten a nuclear strike against the American West Coast, would you be willing to do that.

No, China does not prescribe to conquering an opponent whereby there is nothing gained as a result.



"4. Would you think that the USA and China would have a special relationship as the two superpowers in the Pacific or would you likely think of us as a competitor. I know this depends on the next forty years, but if the relationship basically remains unchanged for the next four decades what would you say. "

Friendly competition





5. Would your relationship with Europe be significantly different than your relationship with America. By that I mean that Europeans are more likely to become hysterical in regards to your "human rights record" than the American population as evidenced by the thuggery against the Olympic Torch that happened in Paris.

Europeans are not likely to become hysterical. The largest trade partner with China is the EU, not the USA. the protestors in Paris are a tiny minority and probably travelling with the torch to protest. it is not going to remain in the memory of China.
Human rights can be many things, including use of cluster bombs and DU rounds in Iraq. So it is a slippery slope to accuse another of human rights violation from a nation that just invaded a Nation and caused the deaths of countless hundreds of thousands.

reply to post by IchiNiSan


your slow too point out the ignorance in haidians post but quick to accuse anyone who is 'ignorant' about china's internal affairs...

the simple fact of the matter is that haidians claims that china has never been aggressive or warlike in its 5000 year history is wrong, ill informed and ignorant.

so why do you defend him?

EDIT: oh and on your English skills why do you spell paranoid with two 'i' instead of one?

[edit on 22-5-2008 by purplemonkey]

reply to post by purplemonkey


Not pointing out is defending someone? Not commenting on certain points of posts in a thread you participate mean you are agreeing on those points?
Wow, did not know you agreed with so much of what I or many of the other posters had said.

Uhmmm, typos, English is like my 4th or 5th language by now So hope you did not spend too much time in looking for a special meaning behind why I spelled that word with two i's. I would feel guilty if you did

reply to post by IchiNiSan


haha no i just noticed it on another thread and wondered why you did it... you also did it with another word but i can't remember which one.

ok maybe defend was the wrong word... its just that you are so eager to call people ignorant when they get the facts wrong but when a Chinese member displays ignorance you digress.