Question for posters from Mainland China

Hi, I'm an American who respects your country and your culture. I know its not the 1970s. You aren't starving from famine, nor are you under the crushing fist of government censorship. I know this is silly for me to even say, but given the stereotypes that many on this forum have of "red china," I think its necessary for me to say that.

My question is this. Lets imagine that it is 2050. I'll make what I think are very measured and realistic projections, though its obviously risky to make such projections. You are seventy years old. China has now firmly established itself as on par with the EU and USA as an economic power. It has successfully invested in its military force and has a military that can at the very least stand toe to toe with the USA in every aspect, and in the Pacific is the strongest force. It has access to global resources and has a middle class that is prosperous, healthy, and happy.

Given all these projections what would you hope would be the geopolitical choices that China makes. I know these are broad questions, so rather than making specific scenarios, I just want to know what your opinion is about the future role of China and what the view of a powerful China would be of the United States:

1. Would you generally be in favor of annexing Taiwan even if it meant through armed forces.

2. Would you put strong pressure on the USA to leave the Pacific region and give up its bases in South Korea, Japan, Guam, Taiwan.

3. If the only way to accomplish either of the previous two objectives would be to threaten a nuclear strike against the American West Coast, would you be willing to do that.

4. Would you think that the USA and China would have a special relationship as the two superpowers in the Pacific or would you likely think of us as a competitor. I know this depends on the next forty years, but if the relationship basically remains unchanged for the next four decades what would you say.

5. Would your relationship with Europe be significantly different than your relationship with America. By that I mean that Europeans are more likely to become hysterical in regards to your "human rights record" than the American population as evidenced by the thuggery against the Olympic Torch that happened in Paris.

I am sorry if these sound like simplistic questions, but I'm just wondering what the longterm relationship between America and China. Quite honestly, in the long term two continents (North America and East Asia) will likely have a profound influence. I'm just thinking about the shape of things to come.

______________________________________

Since I'd like you to anwer those questions, I think its only fair for me to give an answer to these five from the view of an American.

1. I am not in favor of directly defending Taiwan with American blood. My brother is in the military and am not willing to give his blood or my own to defend a country (and not just Taiwan) from external threat. A few countries I would (Britain, Australia, Japan, Germany) but that is about it. That said, I think that America should allow countries to buy the weapons necessary to defend their way of life and democratic form of government from external threat.

2. As Americans we are going to need to give way to the inexorable rise of China as a power in the Pacific region. Part of this should involve a redistribution of forces to demonstrate to our (hopefullly) Chinese allies that we respect them as a power and are willing to show that we are not aggressive toward them or their right to acheive regional power.

3. If China does threaten nuclear strikes against America, then all bets are off in my mind. I said I'm not willing to sacrafice my own life or those I care about to defend Taiwain. I am willing to do so if America is directly threatened with attack.

4. Hopefully we can continue to tie our economies together, since I honestly believe a rising tide lifts all boats. Likewise I see no reason why to countries like ours should become hawkish in regards to one another. Our history is not one of conflict. Americans did not colonize China like Japan/Europe did. Americans and Chinese fought on the same side in WWII. And we were reliable allies during the Cold War. Moreover as the two who will likely be the "two tough guys on the block" hopefully we can avoid an unneccessary arms race and senseless diplomatic jawing for the sake of appeasing nationalistic elements in both of our countries.

5. I really have no idea how to anwer this.

Sorry for the wordy question, but I'd really like to know the perspective of someone on the other side of the ocean. Unfortunately our media often presents us with images of Chinese youth as nationalistic, jingoistic, in favor of killing "innocent" Tibetans, and so on. I'd just really like to hear your view of our future relationship, and what you believe should be the form it takes.

I'm not being facetious, but are there any Chinese ATS people? Might be a bit tough. The only Chinese people I ever encounter are super-rich (for Chinese) government-types. No normal people.

I don't see why that is necessarily correct - perhaps they just don't want to post in a topic where they are treated as if they are the future overlords of the planet Earth.

As for the OP, don't you think you might be making a rather broad generalisation in that you are treating an entire nation as if they were all the same?

Oh, and saying "I want to know about their opinions" amounts to treating them as if they are idiots - they are capable of as varied opinions as any other human being on this planet.

Do you have an opinion on that?

My guess is there are at least 50 possibly 100+ Chinese members of ATS. Go to the Tibet/Olympic threads and you'll find them.

Like Anti-Tyrant said they're not likely to show up in this thread because because of its layout.

Advise: If you had formed the OP as your own vision and not questions the chances would have been greater.

Aw, c'mon. You're bein' hard on the OP. Granted, it is indicative of our Amero/Anglo/Westo-centrism, but at least OP is interested enough to ask. And we come by our attitudes honestly.
I don't see all the evil little insinuations that you do, fellow responders.
Besides, couldn't you let our Chinese ATS constituents respond?

Also, see my previous post. I stand by it.

Wow, OK, first things first. There are a great number of Chinese posters on this site. As the other poster said, check out the Tibet postings or look at the Weaponry forum.

Second, I didn't mean to imply that they would be our future overlords. That is the reason I said, "I'll make what I think are very measured and realistic projections, though its obviously risky to make such projections" Notice the "what I think" and the "its obviously risky." I am also not at all sure how it is saying that they would be our overlords when I say "China is on par" with the US as an economic power. For the record these are not my opinions. They are those of the World bank. Also I'm not saying that China would be the military overlords you imply, rather that they would have the ability to stand "toe to toe with the US." Again I'm not sure how I'm conceding that they will be our colonial overlords.

Third, I'm not making generalizations about the entire Chinese people. In fact quite the opposite. Again that is why I said "You are seventy years old . . . I just want to know what your opinion is." You see, when I ask what someone's opinion is, I am not making broad generalizations, rather asking what an individuals opinions are. You see, in this sentence, "you" is the subjective pronoun, which means you is the subject, and therefore I am asking for the individual reader's opinions, not for "China's" opinions. For example, if I met you and said "What is your opinion about the presidential election." I would not be asking you to make generalizations about America, rather asking you what YOU think. You see, this is the way that the second person singular pronoun works. I would suggest you reattend second grade where they teach you the difference between saying "what do you think" and "What does China think." I would imagine that it would make your life a lot less confusing, since without you knowing it for all these years when someone asks you what you think you have probably been responding by answering what America thinks. Those around you and yourself have probably been very confused for all of your adult and adolescent life.

Anti-tyrannt. Here is a hint. "You" has two forms plural and singular. When I said "What is your opinion," I meant "you" singular. Tricky business that English language when words are spelled the same. That is why I put in the context of saying "you are seventy years old." You see, that means that I am talking to an individual since it would obviously be silly to assume that everyone in China would be seventy years old. Isn't it amazing how that works. If you read the entire post you can know the difference between you singular and you plural.

My humble opinion of why not many responses.

Timing: Considered the recent disaster not many "mainland China living" Chinese people will have the mood to join these kinds of discussions.

Location: This place, this forum... ATS is actually a very hostile environment for Chinese people, especially when you look around and what kind of topics are being created. Not many would like to be cruxified by ignorant people.

Communication: The skill of communication is always tricky. One wrong word used or a sentence forming in a different way. And you might have offended people. The topic itself is also an issue of it's own. In what tone and what context the text is written, these are all giving people different reactions.

Length: People in general loose focus and there is probably one other Chinese from Australia who is willing to write lengthy posts. This also means, not many of us will pay too much attention to a lengthy post as well.

Respect: If the feeling is that no respect is given to one, one can also expect the similar treatment back from the other. There are too many posters simply crying out loud ignorant comments and opinions, which show that they actually did not know much about China and our culture...

Let me tell you honestly, I was mourning the whole week. And simply scanned some thread titles. This thread title was in my radar and actually my initial feeling was. "Ah another China-bashing thread *sigh*". Let's face it, what would you have thought if on the same page you see threads with titles like "Chinese Conspiracy", "Great Quake of China 2008 reveals cracks in the Empire!", these after you just saw new people keep on posting in threads like "God is Punishing China" or "FBI Fears Chinese Hackers Have Back Door Into US Government & Military". The last one is being revived with great efforts by one of the site-owners.

If I did not see Khunmoon making a reply here, I might have simply scanned through your questions and your opinions quickly. Frown a bit and move on to another forum where I can look up some friends discussing the very same topics as well. But in a more friendly environment full of different opinions, but where we all respect each othe very much even though we are all living in different parts of the world....

And now I wonder if I am kinda abusing this thread by making this post to let out some steam and express my annoyance about ATS and many many many many many of her members...

So Xbadger, my apologies if you feel offended I am making this post instead of reponding to the topic itself.... By no means I am trying to derail this thread, which by carefully reading it I do have the feeling you are at leat sincere in trying to open a dialogue with Chinese people in a period when "China" is a fashionable topic. So I am going to prepare a serious and proper reply to your questions, but give me a few days untill I am in the mood, thanks.

EDIT: Starred both Anti-Tyrrant & Khunmoon.


[edit on 18/5/08 by IchiNiSan]

I would suspect the average Chinese person, like the average American, does not want a war with the other-economic or otherwise.

It is the average people that would suffer and die or be crushed financially.

The elite/leaders of both countries would be in nuclear proof bunkers sipping wine, while millions die.

reply to post by IchiNiSan


Location: This place, this forum... ATS is actually a very hostile environment for Chinese people, especially when you look around and what kind of topics are being created. Not many would like to be cruxified by ignorant people.

you have to expect scrutiny of your government and your culture on a site like ATS... and to be honest china gets it easy compared with America... every second thread is about the American government killing or poisoning its own citizens, dumbing down its population, starting wars purely for greed, CIA operations to overthrow governments, HAARP... ect. Just look at the name of section on the site, '9/11 conspiracies', 'Area 51 and other facilities', 'war on terrorism' and 'Katrina conspiracy speculation', all purely centered around the evil USA.

if i was a patriotic chinese person(not ethnically cause i am first man asiatic) i would not answer your question too much probing into matters that if even asked to an american citizen about matters usa would seem disrespectfull to national security.

Can you imagine people like that have the ambition to conquer the earth?
Can you imagine people want to destroy their city like that by nuclear exchange?
of course not.
So if USA doesn't provoke or provocate China, everything will be OK.
personally, I appreciate USA's effort to promote freedom and democracy,
But you should promote it by showing Chinese how wonderful
freedom and democracy are, NOT by splitting China.


[edit on 19-5-2008 by gs001]

Originally posted by purplemonkey
you have to expect scrutiny of your government and your culture on a site like ATS...

I have no problem with scrunity and criticism. However, I do have problems with paranoiia and ignorancy. With the former two, in a good debate will eventually have been much more informed, and might even understand our side of looking at the coin. However, for the latter two, it is just becoming annoying and a waste of time posting a reply to someone who will not even listen anyhow.

and to be honest china gets it easy compared with America... every second thread is about the American government killing or poisoning its own citizens, dumbing down its population, starting wars purely for greed, CIA operations to overthrow governments, HAARP... ect. Just look at the name of section on the site, '9/11 conspiracies', 'Area 51 and other facilities', 'war on terrorism' and 'Katrina conspiracy speculation', all purely centered around the evil USA.

It is always in relation with the portion of visitors of the forum from which country. So no wonder so many interests in American related conspiracy theories, politics, economies and so on. Though for your information, my interest to come to ATS was and is still mainly because of my interests for Aliens & UFO, and normally waive off most of those conspiracy theories.

All I know is, if I were a non-Han Chinese out in the rural areas, I'd be scared!!!!!

reply to post by Ausar

Obviously not American. We love nothing more than to air our dirty laundry, and parade it around in public. Then all the special interests can get pissed and people will make money. It's great, but tiresome.
Also, a favotite American pasttime, second only to baseball, is making up huge, heinous, horror stories and villainizing portrayals of our civic leaders.
Whoo-hoo! Stars and Stripes, baby!!

Real Chinese people don't speak English and don't have internet access, just the gov-types and all the kids in the factories, industry. So, take anything you hear on ATS from a Chinese user with a grain of salt. It's like talking to Hollywood brats or something. Many of them are scared to tell the truth and they're taught to despise their rural/agricultural roots. That'd be like if our government sponsored anti-Redneck campaigns. Which they do sometimes, but their's is bigger and more monolithic, homogenous, and brutally enforced.
Look at the reality of the recent earthquake. May of those communities were slated for govermment "relocation" plans. Something Americans know little about. And most of those people weren't Han. Sorry.

reply to post by IchiNiSan


I have heard Chinese radio off and on for over 40 years, along with Radio Moscow in the height of the cold war, in the 60's. I used to receive monthly schedules of the BBC, Radio Deutschland, and Radio Moscow.

China didn't have anything like that until just a few years ago. They now put out a magazine named The Messenger and the Peking Review. These are very well written articles that highlite China in various ways and their culture.

Currently I have framed copies of pennants from Radio China and Radio North Korea on my walls where my radios are. Several other countries are included, some friendly some not very friendly at all.

I am very impressed with China's openness that has developed on the media side in the last several years. The last of the old communist guard are dying off and the younger generation seems more open and willing to adjust. Change will happen but it will take time. I feel that China is preforming a massive economic experiment combining communism government control
over capitalistic economic growth.

I see the anti-Americanism here all the time from people with various agendas. China bashing, hadn't given it much thought but I see many posts, on many subjects, written from ignorance.

IchiNiSan, you live in a historical land in interesting times...

So you're not living in China? But yet you know all about it. Let's see some demographic breakdowns of Chinese family and class from several independent global sources, because without being Chinese in China, those types of studies, and the normalization of the findings, are the only way anyone outside China knows how it really is for "average Chinese."

Hinky,

You are the kind of people why I would want to stay in ATS. I have met a handful others, and hope to meet more. From you guys I can learn. Like i am still learning on a daily base from my own culture.

Absolute right, and the latest event for the past months make me realize even more that this transition will not be as peaceful and smoothness as I always naiively had thought. One thing is for sure though and to my delight to know, out of my expectation I observe an unprecedented unity among the Chinese people in China and over the world. This might be the mandate what this "experiment" was really missing to the outside world.

This is a very interesting article to share with you The Chinese Brand of Democracy . I would not even call this experiment democracy, which the term itself is meaningless to me. This is even said out of the mouth from someone who is born and raised in liberal Holland for 27 years before coming back to China. Socialism with Chinese characteristics and an open capitalistic economy "ruled by the law" in a transparant and accountable system is what I am expecting China to develop to and to master.

To quote one of my friend talking about historical land:

I guess 5000 years is a long time and takes a long time to read and understand (especially when all the tribes and ancient kingdoms are completely new to you). Every Gwilo has his limit I suppose.

To an ignorant outstander like those I see in this thread swarming with different posts not contributing to the discussions by simply to attract attention is very hard to understand I bet.

P.s. Are The Messenger and the Peking Review online publications? Can not find it in google, can you share the link or contact details? (To my U2U is also fine)



[edit on 19/5/08 by IchiNiSan]

Originally posted by IchiNiSan

P.s. Are The Messenger and the Peking Review online publications? Can not find it in google, can you share the link or contact details? (To my U2U is also fine)

[edit on 19/5/08 by IchiNiSan]

google + 'Peking Review' = first link

heres the link

homepage.mac.com...

i could say it... but you already know...