Hard Numbers: The Economy Is Much Worse Than You Know!

Unproductive dialogue.
Self edit.
Smacks keyboard fingers repeatedly.

[edit on 5/11/2008 by jpm1602]

reply to post by downtown436

reply to post by iiinvision


One of the top money makers now is renting some space to open up second hand stores.. Tons of people are buying things second hand to save some money, and procuring second hand items is so easy it almost makes me sick.

reply to post by Yosimitie Sam


I would hold on to your survival gear and maybe get ready to sell it second hand. You are not going to need it. Once Bush is out of office our economy if going to change.....it may take a few years to get back on track but it will change, the politicians are feeling it too, not in their pocket book but in the general tension of the population.

reply to post by JediK


No. There is nothing wrong with those people, they are most likely right we are in a breif recession. They are not fatalists, you will always be where you are in life because of how you think and your actions that result from your mindset, we could be in an economic boom and people like you would still bitch and moan that they are not getting what they are due....you will only get your due if you get off you ass and make a difference. Most of those people who live in those communities WORKED to get there.

reply to post by BlasteR


All of your post is very insightful. Thought provoking... Thank you for that.

We are in some uncertain times. I wonder if anyone though of it this way though....


On another forum I frequent, many people are saying that if gas goes up much more, they cannot afford to get to work anymore.

So then, we've got people who need their job, to pay rent, bills, feed family, etc... But if they take money from their bills or groceries, to put gas in their car... to get to work... Their power gets shut off, or they cannot feed their family, or..
Well, what is going to happen? Really, I don't think ANYONE but Bush has a positive outlook on gas prices at this point.

But I was going to say, thinking of it this way.. Once these people can no longer get to work, or get laid off from work, they will no longer be buying gas, yeah? So demand will go down. Which means, prices for those left with jobs, vehicles, homes, etc, will go DOWN for gas!

Right? Am I understanding economics correctly?? Maybe prices WILL go down?

Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by Laozi

 

Actually someone withing the poverty limit would pay between 0 and 3% income tax. Either try being poor for real or read up on the tax codes.

Why don't you try reading period. You just confirmed what I said, "someone making that little still has to pay income tax!"

And what would you know about being poor?

Jack you are not being fair......3% tax on 10k is only $300...Everyone has to contribute, i pay 25% of my paycheck to taxes and am not complaining, my wife pays the same and we have a child as well. And I would bet that those that pay the 3% are getting some of my tax money for the welfare and foodstamps that they are living off of, and that does kind of piss me off. There are 14000 job postings here in oregon and people are here are bitching about not being able to find a job. They dont want a job....there are plenty to be had. Now if they have something in their background that makes them not emplyable that is their own problem and still I am paying for it. It really is no different anywhere, except that a lot of other countries dont take care of those who are lazy. Maybe that is one of our problems here.

reply to post by jpm1602


Well you said it, 15 bucks a month can buy more food, thanks for the insight that is exactly what I was trying to say. Last box of ramen I saw went for about $2 so that would be about 7 boxes extra, What does a cable bill and phone have to do with it? People need to live within their means. But thanks for supporting my reply, even if it was in an ignorant manner.

Originally posted by Stumpy1

People need to live within their means.

In a perfect world this is true.

In this world, the economy is being reshuffled too much for an average person to know what "living in their means" actually is. This has nothing to do with changing technology either.

Easy example: Retiree living on life savings and pension. What happens if an inflationary spike and their pension fund collapses due to some greedy guy screwing around happens to wipe out his hard earned savings? They could be "living in their means" but get screwed hard by external forces. If this force is an unavoidable act of God, nothing can be done. If this force is a government taxing the people and spending on their greedy special interests then Mr Retiree is a victim.

I am tired of this "living within their means" crap when the government and special interest can't even live within their own means and need to tax my earnings to subsidize their pork.

Amid an endless Presidential campaign season focusing on personalities and not issues, mindless TV shows and all sorts of sports stuff is emerging THE BIG story which is the economic implosion of America. The news people put lipstick on the pig (the economy) like features showing clever meal stretchers, methods of alternative transportation, ad nauseum. The reality is this: There is a dual economy right now. While decades ago, if the stock market was Bullish and going up, little Americans were doing a might better too (all the while the wealthy were getting richer and richer). Today, the stock market's a roller coaster but still going up and the rich are getting richer. Now here's the rub - average Americans are going down, down, down.
As Mark Twain used to say "there are lies, d--m lies and statistics." In reality, we have double digit unemployment and inflation. I've never seen inflation on food like this in my 60+ years and I fear that within two years, America will see food riots in our streets. I hope I'm wrong, but it looks like it's headed that way.
And did I mention, that the rich are getting richer. This is an hsitoric moment as America transforms itself into two distinct classes - Rich or Poor. We're not totally there yet, but it's coming quicker every day.
These next few years will be unbelievable and unimaginable to the average American. There is a rumor that every year close to 300,000 of the wealthiest Americans leave and go live elsewhere. Do they know something we don't know. God help us all.

Well what do you expect when the Iraq War costs a trillion or so dollars to finance and has no end in sight?

I think the large scale and deployment and logistical support of US Forces is what's putting such a strain on the economy. I mean America has now been in a constant state of war (or low intensity conflict if you will) for around 7 years or so.

7 Years of funding, supporting and maintaining a huge US presence in Iraq and Afghanistan, coupled with the extraordinarily high cost of the Modern Soldier and his equipment and all the related military R & D expenditure on advanced projects that never see fruition (i.e. The Commanche, Paladin, XM-8, Urban Warrior, etc..) and I'd say that's a perfect recipe to strain and break the back of the US Economy.

Not just that but a lot of oversights & incorrect budgeting estimations for the War and such emphasized the shock to the economy.
The military budget is something like $450 billion dollars a year, NOT including related expenses for Iraq, Afghanistan and logistical costs. That's 3.7% of the GDP.
That's pretty ridiculous, you'd be hard pressed to find another nation devoting that much of their GDP to their military, save for China maybe.

If America ever manages to drag itself out of the quagmires it's feet are firmly placed in and maintains a relatively peaceful period of time, you can expect to see economic resurgence.
That said, don't hold your breath with Bush & Co. at the wheel

I think you hit the nail on the head Godfather. I've heard upwards to 3 billion 'a month' support costs. This debacle has lasted longer than WW2. It's what happens when they just print money to proxy this quagmire. Then I think they may have a purpose. To devalue it, rape the people of what they have, and introduce the Amero. It's going to happen one way or the other.

Very interesting thoughts, while I believe some of the blame goes to the politicians . . . what we are really seeing is the early effects of PEAK OIL!

What we need are politicians that are going to mitigate our transition from transporation via liquid fuel to something more universal like electricity.

This transition from what I have read will be from catastrophic to a minor inconvenience. I am of the belief it will be somewhere in the middle, with a majority the top 50% of income Americans will be have to change their lifestyles. The bottom 50% will suffer proportionaly to their poverty and will suffer hunger, health problems and poverty. China and India will suffer some severe starvation, riots and civil disoder. But, the third world will begin experiencing a die off from starvation until their populations can be supported by local agriculture and the non-use of petroleum based fertilizers.

I would suggest to all, to get out of debt, buy some gold & silver, get a rifle and hand gun with plenty of ammo, stock up on non-perishable food you actually like to eat, water, generator, solar panels, crank radio and/or computer, etc. Try to mitigate your circumstances by "PREPARING FOR THE WORST AND HOPE FOR THE BEST" strategy!

I would like to recommend John Williams "Shadow Government Stats" web site. He takes the official numbers and re-calculates them to what we were using before the Clinton era, like unemployment, inflation, gpd, ect.

John Williams Shadow Government Statistics!

[edit on 5/11/08 by mel1962]

[edit on 5/11/08 by mel1962]

[edit on 5/11/08 by mel1962]

Like a 75 cent charge a nite on every vehicle? Equiped with regenerative braking? Like the EVO gm deep sixed? Would help if the auto makers quit sleeping with BP and elected officials. I blasted gm last year over this, and surprisingly enough even got a response, saying EVO just didn't have market share. I was flabbergasted. Perhaps even true when gas was 2.60 a gallon and escalades and hummers were flying off the shelves. 150 a fill.....hahahahhahaha.

[edit on 5/11/2008 by jpm1602]

[edit on 5/11/2008 by jpm1602]

Originally posted by Stumpy1
reply to post by krill

 

Well you could stop paying for internet service and then maybe eat 2x a day. Or sell your computer and use the money for food.

So typical... so much useless simplistic advice. I'm sure their internet service costs them less than $10 a month, which sure isn't going to buy 30 more meals a month. Sell their computer? How much can you get for a used computer? He said he and his wife are disabled, so I'm sure the computer/internet service is indispensable to them.

And Jack, you could just move, right? You know, like Nancy Reagan said: Just buy a house.

I just love how people spout this brain dead drivel insinuating that their situations are their faults because they still have "luxuries" like a computer or live homeless in a state that's "more expensive". Like people aren't doing enough unless they're starving in a cold, dark room staring at the wall to distract themselves.

kattraxx. I too was infuriated by that post and edited my reply. Chalk it up to ignorance. Not worth getting steamed up over. Really not.
Peace

I don't think you're really seeing the picture there Stumpy. Those people earning 10K a year are generally NOT getting welfare or food stamps. Those things don't kick in until the income is BELOW the poverty level. And as for Oregon's job listings, the information on the OLMIS Website seems to indicate there are around 175,000 unemployed in Oregon. And 14,000 jobs..

Hoo boy. You asked for a beat down stumpy. I reckon your getting it. What a messed up thing to say!
The condescention is what killed me the most. Absolutely intolerable.

[edit on 5/11/2008 by jpm1602]

reply to post by Laozi

I would be interested in seeing anyones return who actually paid taxes that made less than 10k a year. Not to say it isn't possible but I would certainly want to direct that person to a free tax service at their local library if they have one to prevent it next time.

If you made $10,500 last year (the poverty line for a single person) you woul owe $176 in taxes. Now maybe that doesn't seem like a lot of money to you, but to that person, it means two months of food. So let's try to keep things in proper perspective here.

Is it really fair or just, that a person literally be starved by taxation?

reply to post by Stumpy1

Howdy jack...!!! You live in New york right? You would do better to move..there are still many places where you can live a managable lifestyle on 20k a year.

But in those places, would I still be able to earn that $20k?

And to be honest, I have a few reasons why I can't leave the area for the time being. One of them being a lack of funds to actually make the move.

When I finally do go, it will be a sad day. The last of the Mohicans you might say. My family has been in this town, north of NYC, since the 1600's.


[edit on 5/11/0808 by jackinthebox]