White Guilt

reply to post by 44soulslayer


Well, after 400 years of oppression, corralling in ghettos and the massive opportunity divide that exists between black and white youth, there are going to be 'shortcuts' taken to make the money they don't have any other chance to make.

Add to that the fact that the police in this country focus on minority population more than any other and you've got yourself a screwy and skewed statistic.


One thing that I have to point out is that the OP's post is being taken the wrong way by most of the people posting in this thread. The confrontational tone being taken by many of the white posters here is not necessary and, for me at least, very telling.

You all doth protest too much, methinks.

reply to post by Rasobasi420


Parity of access exists in modern society.

Why would you change that for the supposed redress of past actions based on the concept of race?

To me (and Im not white), affirmative action is based on the same divisive theory as slavery.

In slavery, blacks were sub-human. In affirmative action, they are to be mollycoddled and taken from cradle to grave because of a percieved past injustice to "them".

How would ANY system of redress- be it by affirmative action or reparations deal with the fact that race is not a good criterion for either collecting or distributing wealth or access.

Example 1: Irish family emigrates to USA in 1980. Forced to pay reparations for the injustices caused by the white race to the black race.

Example 2: Black family emigrates to USA in 1980. Gets cheque through the door or easy university place because of the injustices caused by the white race to the black race.

Neither scenario is moral in my eyes. And no form of reparations may adequately answer these issues, because all forms of reparations are based on the concept of past injustices to race as a group.

*sigh* another thread by someone preaching the gospel of black misery and unending victimhood ....

When black men stop abandoning their chilldren at such a high rate , then come back and talk to us about big bad whitey

[edit on 5/14/2008 by FlyersFan]

This is kind of like beating a dead horse,most people who came to the US were poorly regarded,there were indentured servants well before any blacks wre shipped here,and I don't feel guilty at all my ancestors never owned slaves,they migrated here from Spain,and mothers side from Germany,hate to say it but by whining on how well you have been opressed look how far they have gotten,can only blame the man so much

I'll restate. No one is saying anyone should feel guilty. No one has said anything about reparations. No one is defending affirmative action. These are all being brought up by people venting about why they're angry at black people.

Well you know what? I'm angry at black people too. But hey, if you want to vent, lets use the black members of ATS as the focal point rather than making broad sweeping judgments about all blacks. At least that way we can defend our individual stances.

[edit on 14-5-2008 by Rasobasi420]

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
No one is saying anyone should feel guilty.

ras .. it's the title of the thread. White guilt.

reply to post by Rasobasi420


Yeah Ras. I dont mean to be rabid in my approach, but if we discount all those topics from debate... what is left to debate? There is no topic in that case and we are just wasting time talking


Edit: Also I would like to state that I am not angry at black people. I am angry at those who would use race as a divisive tool in any institution. As I see it, we have a fair society today. Nothing needs to be changed vis-a-vis the race issue.
However the OP stated that "white guilt" should exist due to past injustices...that is when I start getting miffed.

[edit on 14-5-2008 by 44soulslayer]

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
reply to post by TKainZero

 

I mean in the sense that often a white person will judge a black man walking down the street as being a thug based solely on their clothes, or their accent when they say hello.

And yes, people still clutch their purses, lock their car doors, and avoid eye contact when they see a group of black youth. Is it racism? Yes.

Hmmm....I can't imagine why whites in America would have any reason to be fearful or exhibit any wariness when confronted on the streets by black people. Must be that darn racism again

No good reason for that sort of behavior, eh?

Department of Justice crime statistics for 1995 -

*According to the latest US Department of Justice survey of crime victims, more than 6.6 million violent crimes (murder, rape, assault and robbery) are committed in the US each year, of which about 20 per cent, or 1.3 million, are inter-racial crimes.

*Most victims of race crime—about 90 per cent—are white, according to the survey "Highlights from 20 Years of Surveying Crime Victims", published in 1993.

*Almost 1 million white Americans were murdered, robbed, assaulted or raped by black Americans in 1992, compared with about 132,000 blacks who were murdered, robbed, assaulted or raped by whites, according to the same survey.

*Blacks thus committed 7.5 times more violent inter-racial crimes than whites even though the black population is only one-seventh the size of the white population. When these figures are adjusted on a per capita basis, they reveal an extraordinary disparity: blacks are committing more than 50 times the number of violent racial crimes of whites.

*According to the latest annual report on murder by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, most inter-racial murders involve black assailants and white victims, with blacks murdering whites at 18 times the rate that whites murder blacks.

Added note: I realize full well that ALL black people are not violent criminals, but to sit here and act confounded as to why things are the way they are would require one to be in serious denial about the reality of the situation.

Source

reply to post by FlyersFan


And yet no where in the post does it say that white people should feel guilty. It's left up to the individual interpretation. And the OP even says so in a later post.

Again, y'all dost protest too much, methinks.

reply to post by BlackOps719


You're right. People should be afraid of black people.

reply to post by Rasobasi420


Raso,

Don't give up so quickly on your position...

Your assessment of the OP should not be dismissed out of hand and you sound frustrated.. (Hard to tell on the net)

I for one appreciate your outlook.

Semper

reply to post by crazyashdenton15

Slavery was an institution that most every race has endured at some point in time.I don't hold a grudge against the Vikings for enslaving my mothers family.I don't hold a grudge against the Romans for enslaving my fathers family. I have never been a slave holder and I am tired of the harping and blameing and the entitlement mindset.

Have you ever given any thought as to where you would be had your progenetors not been brought to this country? Would you have the same freedoms there? Would you have a comparable living standard?

In my opinion each new life is a new start.If you start out feeling like a victum that's exactly what you will be.Blaming your inabilities on someone else,instead of taking charge of your destiny and moving on.

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
reply to post by Rasobasi420

 

Yeah Ras. I dont mean to be rabid in my approach, but if we discount all those topics from debate... what is left to debate? There is no topic in that case and we are just wasting time talking

Well, to me it looks like you're debating yourself because in this entire thread no one has mentioned reparations or affirmative action. And sometimes there is no debate if there is no disagreement. We can't turn this thread into a different (and from your perspective) more interesting topic just because there's no debate with the current one.

As I see it, we have a fair society today. Nothing needs to be changed vis-a-vis the race issue.

Maybe in London, but in the US there are still many race based issues that we often ignore or sweep under the rug.

However the OP stated that "white guilt" should exist due to past injustices...that is when I start getting miffed.

The OP said no such thing. All that was posted was a list of things that black people might be miffed about.

I actually give a lot of credit to the OP for being able to simply point out historical facts and let the conversation branch from there.

Also, as stated by the OP

Maybe i should have titled my post a bit better i am by no means saying that white people should feel guilty all i am pointing out is why black people might seem a bitted pissed sometimes also im not saying that other races including the white race have not been through hell and slavery also but im not white or chinese so therefore i cant speak for you that is up to you to post a forum of your own

[edit on 15-5-2008 by Rasobasi420]

reply to post by semperfortis


Thanks Semper. I'm just afraid that people might not be able to look at this thread objectively, and then introspectively see how they respond to a fairly innocuous list of facts.

All I see is a huge thread of people yelling 'don't blame me, it's not my fault' when no one blamed them, or claimed it was their fault.

That is my interpretation of the white guilt mentioned in the thread title. It's not that one is being accused by another, but that one is conflicted within oneself.

"Should I feel guilty? No! Why should I feel guilty? It wasn't me who did these things! I'm not responsible!!" and yet, guilt isn't a rational thing. It's not something that can be reasoned, and because of this, there is an internal conflict which presents itself as an external conflict with a 'ghost'.

I once again bring up the analogy of two children at Christmas. One gets a new bike, the other gets a pair of dirty socks. Maybe the one who gets the bike feels guilty that they received a better gift than the other, but it's not their fault, is it?

Im not racist but...

Although blacks have a right to be angry, my family isnt from America, we didnt enslave your race, infact we were used by hitler in many tests and such.. we werent even Jewish, just not blue eyed blondes. I dont think people have a right to be angry at the current generation.. America is a place where people come together from all over the world. I dont mean to be harsh but your reasons for whites to be guilty is ignorant. YOU as in the OP should be guilty for forcing on a sweeping generalization that whites are all American and all were slave owners or from a generation that bought/sold slaves.

My family was set as worse then slaves, we didnt get small meals.. we got shocked, gassed, shot, set in machines to test new torture methods and just generally tortured. Not just my family but MANY german familys.

I just wanted to add my little rant to this rant of a thread.

Summary: Not all whites are like you think, we arnt all from that area.

reply to post by Rasobasi420


Ok I accept your points about the OP's intentions.

This has made me look like a moron, debating myself!

In which case, where does the debate lie? I can find no issue here.

Originally posted by The Bear Man

Summary: Not all whites are like you think, we arnt all from that area.

Careful assuming what others think. I've made that mistake a few times and it usually comes back to bite me.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420

Originally posted by The Bear Man

Summary: Not all whites are like you think, we arnt all from that area.

Careful assuming what others think. I've made that mistake a few times and it usually comes back to bite me.

Well, Yes I suppose but in context to the OP's post his thought was very clear to me, sorry that I was harsh but.. I tire of all this racism over white black asian and so on.. we are all the same with a different appearance. Why cant we accept this? I mean.. seriously it shouldnt be that hard.(though I know it is for some reason)

Well really we are not all the same.

Realistically there are massive cultural, religious and economic differences. For one to assume you can relate to me exactly the same as you would relate to someone of Italian heritage from New York City, or an African American from Mississippi, is by all means a faulty assumption.

I got the OP's meaning, I suppose; as he has not responded in a few days, I guess I could be wrong as well. (Wont be the first time) I'm on the same page as Raso in that it is an individual thing the OP was trying to convey and not one all encompassing the white European race.

My opinion is that it is all about tolerance. I'm going to get personal here, so bear with me and accept that I have no intention of hurting any feelings, please.

My Granny taught me to be tolerant in all aspects of my life. One of the things she taught me was that tomorrow is another day, so why obsess over something that may mean nothing then.

That tolerance served me well coming off the farm in West Virginia and being shoved into a major university and then the Marines.
However it was never so poignant as when as a new officer, I was assigned to the projects in a predominantly black area. The one thing that always amazed me was the disfavor and even hatred some others felt towards the residents of this area. All because they were different than those that felt such emotions towards them.

In the years I was there, in all the roles I took as Community Police Officer, living there and even in my role as Uniform Narcotics, I made some good friends and some powerful enemies. Did the farm boy from West Virginia ever really fit in there? Nope. But it did not matter as like in most of life, there were those that accepted me for who and what I was and those that did not. I made friends with the tolerant people that accepted me as I accepted them, without a requirement from them or me to change. The intolerant people? Well we are going to have those people with us our entire lives. Have to get used to them.

The point is tolerance. I don't require that everyone look like, act like or live like me to be my friend. I can not hate or dislike anyone because of the color of their skin, what church they go to or the country they hail from. Granny taught me better and I really wish others would have been taught by her.

I don't feel guilty because I'm white, but I do feel badly when I see discrimination, and no matter what some would like for us to believe, it is out there. FAR TO MUCH...

I can feel bad that many. MANY black youths from the projects will never really have the opportunities they need to succeed. Yes I came from nothing and made myself a success with help from no one, but not everyone is like me. Remember, I don't require them to be. Some people, young people especially, need a helping hand and all to often it is not forthcoming especially those from the projects and other economically distressed areas.

I know I am sounding more and more like a Lib here, but it is how I feel. We can blame anything we want to in order to make us feel better about ourselves. Like the situation of Black fathers abandoning their families. Yet how does our blaming this, or anything, help the children? I would suggest a little less blame and deflection and a little more solutions. Before you ask, I do NOT have the solutions, I wish to God I did, but I am just not that intelligent.

What difference does it really make WHY children are being caught up in a circle of economic defeat and depression? Is not the solution more important than the cause? So perhaps we could stop worrying about why it has happened, and start working on fixing it.

These are just my thoughts and as I am feeling extraordinarily pensive tonight, don't expect me to always be this way..

Semper

As long as we live in the past, we’ll stay there. Except for my “Native American” and Scottish ancestry, the rest of my ancestors are relatively newcomers to this country. None of my ancestors were slave holders. I feel no guilt at what the “white man” committed in the past in the name of capitalism.

I live here in the now. I don’t judge anyone by their skin color. Just don’t call me white girl! If the black community feels hate or animosity towards the white community, that is their prerogative. Just as learning to get over what the white man did to my ancestors was my prerogative.