Science, Meet Your Maker!

Science Has Proven God Exists

It's true and one day soon history will reflect it. Atheism is all but dead it's just the few anti-theist stalwarts that balk and turn a blind eye to the incontrovertible evidence for a supernatural creator. In the course of my research, I've come to see that the recent proliferation of neoatheism bythe likes of Dennent, Dawkins and Hitchens is more a dying gasp than a frontal assault.

Albert Einsteins general relativity has been proven mathematically to five decimal places. It has been backed up by experimental observation. It demands that the universe has a beginning.

The second law of thermodynamics is heralded as the most sure law in science. It demands that matter go from a state of order to disorder, entropy. If the universe were eternal it would have cooled off and there would be no energy left by now. It also demands a beginning to the universe.

As predicted by theory, astronomer Edwin Hubble observed that the entire universe is expanding from a single point by observing the red-shifting doppler effect of expanding galaxies.

As predicted by theory, satellites have detected and photographed the residue heat signatures from the initial big bang.

The finite nature of the universe is much more established in science and backed up by observation than macro evolution.

More Specific Evidence for the Big Bang
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Ok you might ask so how does this prove God? The proof is surprisingly simple.

Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
The universe began to exist.
Therefore the universe has a cause. That cause we call God.

Atheists used to argue against the second premise, they argued an eternal universe. Since science has disproven that, they have resorted to the first premise. The problem with that it is the first premise is known as the law of causation and is the very fundamental tenet science is founded on. Science is a search for causes. By challenging the law of causation they challenge science itself and effectively saw off the branch on which they sit.

Some atheists like booze hound Christopher Hitchens and zoo keeper high priest Dawkins have demanded, "Well then by the law of causation what caused God?". But they are making junior high level error in their logic. The law of causation does not say that all things have a cause. It says Everything that begins to exist has a cause. Because the creator, by definition, has to exist outside of space time thus he has no beginning.

In the final analysis you are left with only two options. Everything came from nothing. Or everything cam from something. Since nothing can be defined as "what rocks dream about", I'll choose the latter.

Why do we call the cause God? The entity that caused the big bang exists outside of time and created "nature" thus is a supernatural being. It's just as the Bible has always claimed, an eternal supernatural creator. Science has finally caught up with what theologians have known for millennia.

It does seem pretty retarded to believe everything came from nothing. I mean WTF do people actually say that? I mean that's plain dumb or desperate one.

Famous Atheist Antony Flew Changes Mind, Believes in God

Stunning revelation of how famous atheist Dr. Antony Flew has come to conclusion after seeing new evidence and devout reflection of his studies to find none other than that God exists. Professor Antony Garrard Newton Flew (born February 11, 1923) is a British philosopher. For several decades, he was recognized as a prominent atheist. Yet in December 2004, he began expressing deist opinions.

(only 2 minutes)



Also see this thread www.abovetopsecret.com...'

reply to post by Bigwhammy


His idea of god is very open minded, I wish more athiests would be open minded to the "idea" of god, definition of god, and what god could be? There is much to learn and investigate.
Some athiests simply deny the idea of some old man in the sky, as if that's the only possible idea of what god is.

[edit on 11-5-2008 by _Phoenix_]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy

Science Has Proven God Exists

thank you, you have such a way with words. i was trying to explain this in the ¨creationist and ids, admit your defeat¨ thread. but i fumbled

Originally posted by Yosimitie Sam
It does seem pretty retarded to believe everything came from nothing. I mean WTF do people actually say that? I mean that's plain dumb or desperate one.

PROTIP: only creationists and ignorant people think anyone reasonably intelligent says that. I've never met an (reasonably intelligent) atheist who thinks that everything came from nothing. A leading idea is that everything has always existed. You'll note that's no more an extraordinary a claim as saying that god has always existed. The correct answer, of course is that we don't know what happened at the start of the universe. Science has no model for what happened. It can be extrapolated backward that the universe occupied a very small space and expanded outward from there to it's present size, and continues expanding, but there is NO solid idea as to the origin of the universe.

I, myself, am a catholic, and believe that god created the universe. But I will freely admit that this belief is baseless and unsubstantiated. I only have faith. And faith ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH to pass for solid truth. So if I were asked how the universe came into existence, I would be lying if I didn't say that I don't know.

And unless any of you happen to be god, or are genius particle physicists who have just today figured out the meaning of life, the universe, and everything, YOU ARE TOO.

I am enjoying the work of my fellow 420 indulgers in this thread.

but please, leave me out of this!!

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
reply to post by AshleyD

 

Why is there lighting?
Zeus threw a lightning bolt, that's why!
But wait, isn't it the discharge of electricity from storm clouds?
But Zeus made the storm clouds
Wait, didn't the storm clouds form by surface water evaporating into the atmosphere?
But Zeus made the atmosphere......

Because to be honest,
I have done no such things...!!

Oh and on the topic of God and creation vs Science....

i suggest everybody reaches out for our dear friend The Oxford Concise...
and head for the word Nature... NOT to be confused with Nurture!!

The one i am holding says...

LOTS...!!!!

heres a brief snippet...

"Nature- The force responsible for creating all physical phenomena of of the material universe"

wow, Powerful.

If i were to "subscribe" to any religion, it would be one with a cool definition...

like Nature...

[edit on 11/5/2008 by Zeus187]

[edit on 11/5/2008 by Zeus187]

reply to post by Bigwhammy


just sit right down for a second

prime mover =/= god

there is no way to necessarily equate the two. sure, god can be a prime mover, but a prime mover doesn't necessarily have to be god

and there's another problem, god as a prime mover would only prove that god existed, not that god currently exists...

ok, you can be on your merry way now.

originally posted by madnessinmysoul atheist superstar
just sit right down for a second

pulls up a seat

originally posted by madnessinmysoul atheist superstar
prime mover =/= god

there is no way to necessarily equate the two. sure, god can be a prime mover, but a prime mover doesn't necessarily have to be god

Let's see an entity that exists outside of time (eternal) that created the universe (supernatural). Well if you prefer prime mover over God that's a decent start.

Next we'll work on you asking the prime mover to forgive you for your sins and you accepting that the prime mover came to earth as man and died for you. Then your all set and I'll meet you in the sky one day.

originally posted by madnessinmysoul atheist superstar
and there's another problem, god as a prime mover would only prove that god existed, not that god currently exists...

Since he created the universe - he created space time - he exists independent of time. The words 'existed' and 'currently' are meaningless.

signature by madnessinmysoul atheist superstar
I bet there'd be hell if someone told a Christian/Jew/Muslim "It’s dangerous for our children to even know that your philosophy exists!"

So atheism is a philosophy. Hmmm I was told it was not believing in any Gods. Thanks for the tip!

Actually all bets aside, I'm told there literally is hell for your philosophy. Keep working on that prime mover thing.

[edit on 5/11/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Lets lend creationalisim some of evolutions creedence for a minute here...

and say, that if HYPOTHETICALLY god as you picture... (him?) exists and was the "creator" there still lays the issue of "his?" creation...

was there another god before him who in turn created him??

if so, what are the origins of this god??

and so on, if you catch my drift....

you must come to the conculsion, that there was this pressence, of something refered to as "god" since the dawn of time. and this "god" was therefore not created, and so, in theory any and all of "his" creations are subsequently the work of nature.....



[edit on 11/5/2008 by Zeus187]

Why are the ancient belief systems of the Greek, Roman, Maori, Egyptions, Mayan etc etc refered to as "Mythology" when the modern day equivalents are not???

thats something i would like answered...

because a man called Zeus, Re, or Te Kore never realy walked the earth??

id say there have been thousands of men named Zeus or Te kore walk our world...

but none of them made the outlandish claims of one mexican by the name of "jesus" and his 12 hombres, who walked across the desert to USA to jobs at Taco bell.... hehe i love that!!

Well firstly I don’t think the op makes any sense…….
- or maybe I didn’t understand it properly

Either way this is my take on it: there is a need of some sort of faith in order for the pursuit of science to be grasped. Is that what you’re basically saying ‘Bigwhammy’?

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Let's see an entity that exists outside of time (eternal) that created the universe (supernatural). Well if you prefer prime mover over God that's a decent start.

you've made some mistakes there

it's not outside of time, it's existing prior to time. this being could become bound by time the second it exists for all we know...

a prime mover also didn't have to create the universe, just trigger it, as the material existed prior to the universe.

Since he created the universe - he created space time - he exists independent of time. The words 'existed' and 'currently' are meaningless.

i've already pointed out the problem there. existing prior to time doesn't mean that it's eternal, just that it was eternal because a bag of cheetos would have been eternal at that point.

So atheism is a philosophy. Hmmm I was told it was not believing in any Gods. Thanks for the tip!

...i'm quoting someone. and it's a philosophical position in which one doesn't believe in any gods, so yes, it is a "philosophy" in the same way that not believing in the tooth fairy is a philosophy.

Actually all bets aside, I'm told there literally is hell for your philosophy. Keep working on that prime mover thing.

oooo...threats. you're really not being a good christian. love thy neighbor, not tell him that he's going to hell.

honestly, if good people are in hell for being atheists, i'd rather be there than with the god that put them there.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Actually, you're the one who made a mistake I believe. What is time? How do you define time? How do you know time? Time is an earthly concept. Without certain factors, we wouldn't know time. Just like without a definition of sin, we wouldn't know sin. The 4th commandment says "Remember the Sabbath day"......REMEMBER, why is it that that is the only commandment that starts with a verb, an action. God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th. See, it starts to explain what time is to us. Going by that, I guess you could say God created time.
And another thing. how did material to build the universe exist prior to the universe existing??? Who made the material? All of a sudden, hydrogen, nitrogen decide to make themselves? Your statement makes no sense...are you fishing for some philosophical meaning to back your belief??? I'm confused.
And if he existed before time, why wouldn't he exist now? Do you think the bag of Cheetos killed him>???
And you say if good people are in hell for being athiests, then you'd rather be there? What is that??? They may have been "good people" but didn't believe in the being that created them. Again, going back to the 4th commandment.

BigWhammy:

I am not sure that there is no god. In fact I do not remember stating that there is no god, not for certain. However, based on the evidence present, or rather the lack thereof, it would appear that there probably is no god.

Your "proof" proves nothing. Where did God come from? Why can God be eternal, but not the universe? Why can the big bang not be a part of a cycle? Why can a multiverse not exist?

Originally posted by beach2197
Actually, you're the one who made a mistake I believe. What is time? How do you define time? How do you know time? Time is an earthly concept.

actually, in the context of physics time is a dimension as space is. we live in 3 dimensions of space and one dimension of time.

Without certain factors, we wouldn't know time. Just like without a definition of sin, we wouldn't know sin. The 4th commandment says "Remember the Sabbath day"......REMEMBER, why is it that that is the only commandment that starts with a verb, an action.

...can you give me a hebrew translation to back it up?
i only ask because i hate it when people say that sort of stuff and base it purely off of a translation.

God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th. See, it starts to explain what time is to us. Going by that, I guess you could say God created time.

and did so out of order
and apparently he didn't realize that the moon isn't a light but a giant reflector...

And another thing. how did material to build the universe exist prior to the universe existing???

it was just there. first law of thermodynamics states that it can neither be created nor destroyed. it just was.

Who made the material? All of a sudden, hydrogen, nitrogen decide to make themselves? Your statement makes no sense...are you fishing for some philosophical meaning to back your belief??? I'm confused.

my explanation makes sense with an understanding of science.
hydrogen and nitrogen didn't even exist prior to the big bang...in fact, things had to cool down for a while before matter started to form...

And if he existed before time, why wouldn't he exist now? Do you think the bag of Cheetos killed him>???

i'm just pointing out that something existing at a prior point in time (in this case 13.7ish billion years ago) doesn't logically lead to something existing today.

And you say if good people are in hell for being athiests, then you'd rather be there? What is that??? They may have been "good people" but didn't believe in the being that created them. Again, going back to the 4th commandment.

and then the serial rapist who repents on his deathbed gets to go to heaven? i'm sorry, but that's not justice. i'd rather be with Andrew Carnegie, Aldous Huxley, Ernest Hemingway, Arthur C. Clarke, Carl Sagan, Elizabeth Cady-Stanton, Gloria Steinam, Helen Keller, Kurt Vonnegut, Watson, Crick, James Joyce, John Lennon, Alfred Hitchcock, George Orwell, Charles Schultz, Mark Twain, Robert Frost, Van Gogh, Susan B. Anthony, Oscar Wilde, and many more great people who just happened to not believe in god

if there was a deity of that great power, i don't see how it could possibly be so petty.

Science decieved everyone, as science explains merely some of gods process's. Science merely explains what is happening, God is the one which set these process's out.

Has science improved life in 2000 years i dont think so, from the bible we are in very similiar times to when god decided to send jesus to us. Here is a description of what was happening then.

Galatians 5:19-21
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Here i think demonstrates a point that although you can depict science very well they may not understand it.

Matthew 16:1-5
1 The Pharisees and Sadducees came up, and testing Jesus, they asked Him to show them a sign from heaven. 2 But He replied to them, “When it is evening, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.’ 3 “And in the morning, ‘There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times? 4 “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and a sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah.” And He left them and went away.

I feel this extract depicting the kingdom of god also can play a part as it says that although they can see it all that everything is orderly and everyone can say that an apple falls from the tree because of gravity but in truth the apple fell from the tree because of god.

Mark 4:12
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Annomalies and scientific phenomon were events happen which should not happen and unexplainable by science. However if science can be wholly depicted by maths and equations then it cant happen as 4+4=8 and never equals 9. A scientists only supposed logical arguement may be that it is part of a longer cycle and holds a belief of faith towards it. People can believe that science will provide a cure for a disease or god will provide a cure. If I ask god for a cure and the next day a scientist produces a cure considering god is ominpotent and omnipresent and not personified on earth how would he give this cure? if science created this cure then would that show science is true or god is true?or that both coincide.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

originally posted by madnessinmysoul
you've made some mistakes there

it's not outside of time, it's existing prior to time. this being could become bound by time the second it exists for all we know...

a prime mover also didn't have to create the universe, just trigger it, as the material existed prior to the universe.

Beach pretty much called your error here madd. The word "prior" implies time so there was no "prior", it's more correct to think of it as transcendent of, or outside of time. The whole point of the beginning is that 'he' created it, and there was nothing before. You can't try to analyze him scientifically as transcends material laws - he created the material.

For instance with the observed expansion of the universe. Physics tells us the universe is not expanding into "empty" space. Space time its self is expanding.

i've already pointed out the problem there. existing prior to time doesn't mean that it's eternal, just that it was eternal because a bag of cheetos would have been eternal at that point.

to use the word "prior" or "was" in referring to something eternal is an absurdity. To create time certainly an eternal nature is required.

and apparently he didn't realize that the moon isn't a light but a giant reflector...

Ohh please. It was a book written for ancient Hebrews not an astronomy text. They saw a light in the sky - so do you.

t was just there. first law of thermodynamics states that it can neither be created nor destroyed. it just was.

You have the cart before the horse again. The creator "just was" as in "I AM" . He created all matter and time thus the laws of thermodynamics do not describe him.

my explanation makes sense with an understanding of science.
hydrogen and nitrogen didn't even exist prior to the big bang...in fact, things had to cool down for a while before matter started to form.

Now you sort of getting it. Not only did H and N not exist but neither did any of the laws of science... so the creator transcends science.

Since you realize its cooling down - if the universe were eternal we wouldn't exist because it would have completely cooled by now.

oooo...threats. you're really not being a good christian. love thy neighbor, not tell him that he's going to hell.

No threat - a sober warning - Remember I said "I'm told" (from scripture). It's exactly the opposite of how you portray it. It is an act of love. I would be remiss and cruel not to warn my neighbor that his house was on fire. How much more his soul?

honestly, if good people are in hell for being atheists, i'd rather be there than with the god that put them there.

Wow for all the pontificating you do on scripture the very basic concepts seem to have escaped you. In Gods eyes there are no "good" people we all deserve hell. That's why we need a savior.





[edit on 5/12/2008 by Bigwhammy]