LUCIFER - Biblical Mis-translation! Very interesting!

hey asses isnt "lucifers" or "satans" thing to do is confuse you ? and to make you think that he is the holy one? so that when the real light bearer comes you will already be on satans side? because ur idiocy allows u to think that lucifer is the same thing as jesus? or means the same thing? which in all reality it doesnt because if you are a follower of god... you know that satan is trying to get you to beleive that he is one with jesus and god? he is suppose to confuse you and make you think that he is there equal and what better way to do that then by .. having his name mean the same that jesus claims to be? "the light bearer the morning son" ? how bout u think about that lol...

If you want to get an idea of how the Bible has been used as a disinformation tool by ALL religions that use it then you could do no better than to have a read of Laurence Gardner

Lawrence Gardner

I'm pretty sure that Bethlehem didn't exist at the time of Jesus's birth?

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
The thread descended into mostly bickering and near fanatical defense of the false myth.

i agree... what blows my mind is that it isnt that consequential to ones faith if lucifer is the king of babylon or satan. it doesnt change anything at all. and yet people hold on to crap like things like it is the end of the world.

The Peace of God to all that belong to the light,
Dear Readers,

Well I think the problem with the name of Lucifer is very connected with the the very well known obsession among some sects to believe that one of these days Satan is going to appear to them with the aspect of an Angel of light. Many of them says that Lucifer precisely means Angel of light.

You can guess why I found this thought specially unconfortable and insulting for me.

I think this so popular belief or superstition comes from their visible wrong ways to read and interpret the scriptures without taking in account the context, isolating the phrase or paragraph of the rest of the message to which it is part.

It looks that everything began arround some paragraph taken from the II Corynthians' letter of St Paul, chapter 11:

13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve

2 Corinthians 11 (New International Version)

But pay atention to this point:

When St Paul mentioned that Satan can appear as an Angel of light, he even was talking not about Satan or the devil but about the false Apostles, that is the main idea of that chapter, not other.

Besides that there are two important aspects to underline about the meaning of the verse 14:

1) Is not saying that to look as an Angel of light is the normal condition of Satan, but probably refers to two distinct aspects:

* His aspect before he fell, before he became enemy of God, when he was an a Prince of the Celestial court, and he was indeed an Archangel of light, that looks to be the most accurate translation of Lucifer.

** His ability to take any form, so St Paul is using a comparision, the most descriptive that he found at that moment, to give an idea of how powerful or smart the Devil can be, saying that he can look even as an Angel of God.

2) There is something more important that is commonly ommited by these fanatics, and that unfortunately is consequence of the ignorance of many of their followers:

To say that Satan can appear with the aspect of Angel of light is not equivalent to say that any Angel of light is Satan,
that is something that is contrary to the laws of the mathematical logic, since implication in one direction is different that than mutual implication.

IF.....THEN is not equal to IF AND ONLY IF

Finally let me say that I am completly agree with the commentaries in this thread that the Light is a property of God, is something that is his distinctive attribute, there are many parts of the bible that explain that:

John 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life."

John 9:5 "While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."

John 12:36 "While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light." These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them. (NASB ©1995)

Matthew 5:14
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket,"

if you want to know more about my research on this topic pls chk the following thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Thanks for your atention,

your friend,

The Angel of lightness

This thread is ancient, and well discussed too in many threads.

It is in a passage from Ezekiel the Latin Vulgate which is the Catholic bible written in Latin, and later in the English King James Version, Lucifer is written with a capital L to replace the Hebrew term or name Heylel. The Vulgate is famous for being one of the most poorly performed translations of all time, and KJV isn't exactly well translated either. When it would be correct in the Vulgate to use the Latin word for morningstar in the epistles of Peter, lucifer, because the NT relies on the LXX for it's translations, which uses the Greek word for morningstar, phosphoros, it is straight out rediculous to bring it into an English translation as a replacement for a god that was venerated long before Lucifer even existed as a pagan fantacy.

More evidence that the King James Bible was perverse propaganda=

Thanks for filling me in!

reply to post by joecamel


I wouldn't call it perverse propaganda, but rather an honest try at making a literal alternative to the existing translations at the time. Compared to the Geneva and the Vulgate for instance it is better, but it's nowhere near the LXX due to language differencies. Greek has equivalents for all of the words in the Hebrew text. English hasn't. And KJV interprets more than it translates sometimes. It doesn't differ between ceremonial and moral laws, it replace names of persons, animals and gods, probably due to lack of better knowledge at the time. Since English has no word for the Realm of the Dead, She'ol or Hades, Hell is used for both Gehenna or the apocalyptic Lake of Fire and the Abode of the Dead. Seraphs are called beasts and many other absurdities. At it's time KJV was a quite good start at translating the Bible into English. Many modern bibles rely on ideas from the KJV. Sadly enough I must add.

reply to post by lilblam


You have to go back to the King James Version to find the name Lucifer.
That is not because of a deliberate attempt at deception.
It was just going along with an established way of translating it.
We know more about that myth, than they did back then, because of archaeological discoveries.
Once the Ugaritic texts from the ancient Phoenicians were translated, we have come to know better what the original source was that Isaiah was referring to and comparing to the king of Babylon.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Once the Ugaritic texts from the ancient Phoenicians were translated, we have come to know better what the original source was that Isaiah was referring to and comparing to the king of Babylon.

Ehrm, sorry, for confusing you with Ezekiel, I always tend to mix Ezekiel and Isaiah for some reason, but you are right. The term heylel or the later name Heylel refers to the god of the morningstar in Babylon. This god was the protector of the morningstar himself, the emperor or king of Babylon or simply the planet we today refer to as Venus. When Venus is the evening star at the dusk side of it's cyclus it is seen as falling into the sun at sundown. It marks the fall of Babylon and the time when Nebukadnezzar had to leve his throne to eat grass like the ox.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


I did not even read your post until after I made my post.
I am new to this thread.
I like to address the original post before I get confused by all the replies that usually get off-topic.
I was talking about the old myth that was around, in the time of Isaiah.
It is about stars and one that wanted to join the assembly of the North.
My theory is that it was originally a fable to explain why the pole star shifted.

Indeed. You can see the same kind of pseudo science in the passing of the astrological ages. Every vernal equinox the sun rises in Pisches. However at earlier ages the sun has been known to rise in Taurus and then Aries at vernal equinox until they marked the entry of the age of Pisches at or around the birth of Christ. The idea is that soon the sun will rise in Aquarius at vernal equinox. However nothing seems to fit with astronomical observations. Perhaps the passing of the ages isn't linear as thought in the antique world, but is infact rather chaotic and has to do with the cellestial north pole and the shifting of the earth axis, making the cellestial north pole drift from star to star. It is currently in the constellation Ursa Minor, while a couple of thousand years ago a star in Draco was pole star.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


Right. It would have seemed inexplicable to ancient peoples who did not know about the earth's wobble.
It was turned into a moral story about the pride of wanting to be the highest star, as a great honor.
We did not know about this story and found out about it with the uncovering of the ancient city at Ugarit.
My brother and cousin learned the language and deciphered some of the tablets.
That is how I know about it.
My brother taught me about it and how he connected it to the Lucifer story.

[edit on 12-6-2008 by jmdewey60]

Well, lucifer has got nothing to do with the pole star. since lucifer is planet Venus, and not a fixed star, the Greek word for lucifer is phosphoros. You may mix lucifer with Draco, or the Dragon, the constellation at the very aphex of heaven. This constellation is connected to the Satan, and after the classic books by Milton and Dante, Lucifer has been adopted as one name of Satan.

Well, Draco, it's not a dragon at the aphex, it's actually the Father, but his head, shoulders and right arm has been chained to form a constellation called Draco, and it's been like that ever since the Babylonian captivity. Ursa Major would be the Son of Man and Ursa Minor would be the Lamb of God. The Lamb of God is crucified by the two polar axis' in the North, or resides in the Cross of Heaven. This was why Jesus was crucified on a cross... When Stephanus witnessed about this to Saulus/Paulus, he had him stoned for blasphemy. It was blasphemy to the Pharicees to place the Father at the throne of heaven, leaving Satan out of the equation...

Well the story is that the star that aspired to sit in the highest seat of the Assembly of the North was cast down to the lowest position, which is the day star.
The day star usually stays pretty close to the ground.
It is called the morning star because a lot of the time you can only see it in the morning.
That was the point I was trying to make.
Isaiah was using something that would have been familiar to the people of his time.
Much later, in the dark ages, people were not sure what to make of it because that story had been lost.

Very interesting indeed. Is there a time frame to the tablets? And is there a place where the text is translated and put out for download?

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


My cousin was the one who was actually on the ground and sorting through the stuff.
My brother is a literary critic.They were working at completely different levels.
There was a Christian organization involved in it and that is the connection.
My cousin is an ordained minister and my brother is a Lay preacher.
I never was involved except for having some conversations about it with me going, "Oh, cool".
I got interested in this again, lately, and looked on the internet.
I was disappointed with what is available on-line.
So that might explain why I find it necessary to bring up this story because for some reason it seems to be kind of a secret.
Maybe there is some sort of political reason to not broadcast this.
I have tryed to get my brother to just bypass the whole publishing business and go ahead and publish himself on the internet.
All I got for my trouble was a disgusted look from him and a grunt.
He seems to think his work would not be respected if he just threw it up on the web.
That was a few years ago and he may change his mind.


[edit on 13-6-2008 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by lilblam
What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell? The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel.

Yes and there too is a word given to the king of Tyrus in Ezekiel.

It's the same driver, yet different vehicle. These things should make sense if one understands that leviathan traverses, or swims throughout the see.

Originally posted by lilblam
That can be confusing for Christians who identify Christ himself as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.""

And satan his adversary poses as the exact same thing. Or attempts to.

Originally posted by lilblam
Well, Jesus simply means Morning Star...

The name Jesus means Jehovah is Salvation.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Kewl! I'd very much like to know more about this story. It somehow reminds me of a quote from Isaiah 24:

"The earth reels like a drunkard, it sways like a hut in the wind"

Story of Lucifer – His Origin
To find the origin of Lucifer, we turn to the Old Testament. In the Hebrew, the name Lucifer is translated from the Hebrew word "helel," which means brightness. This designation, referring to Lucifer, is the rendering of the "morning star" or "star of the morning" or "bright star" which is presented in Isaiah. "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High’" (Isaiah 14:12-14, NIV).

The context of this passage is a referral to the king of Babylon as presented in his pride, splendor and fall. However, it is to the power behind the evil Babylonian king that this is actually addressed. No mortal king would claim that his throne was above that of God or that he was like the Most High. The power behind the evil Babylonian king is Lucifer, Son of the Morning.

Story of Lucifer – His History
Lucifer is just another name for Satan, who as head of the evil world-system is the real, though invisible, power behind the successive rulers of Tyre, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and all of those evil rulers that we have seen come and go in the history of the world. This passage goes beyond human history and marks the beginning of sin in the universe and the very fall of Satan in the pristine, sinless spheres before the creation of man.

We also see this same motif in Ezekial: "Moreover the word of the LORD came to me: Mortal, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, carnelian, chrysolite, and moonstone, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; and worked in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. With an anointed cherub as guardian I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from among the stones of fire. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you. By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade, you profaned your sanctuaries. So I brought out fire from within you; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever" (Ezekiel 28:11-19, NIV).

This passage seems to be addressed to the "king of Tyre." In reality, it goes beyond the king to the one who is behind the evil king of Tyre. This passage also has near and far prophecy about Lucifer/Satan because although his final end is already sure, it has not happened yet and it occurs after the final judgment (Revelation 20:7-10). In both the Isaiah passage and the Ezekiel passage, the representation is not of Lucifer/Satan as confined to his own person but his working in and the consummating of his plans through earthly kings and rulers who take to themselves divine honors and who, whether they actually know this or not, rule in the spirit and under the aims of Satan. "For our struggle is not against enemies of blood and flesh, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places" (Ephesians 6:12, NIV). Satan is the principality behind the powers of this corrupt world system.

Notice the statement that is given in the passage in Ezekiel, "the anointed cherub." These statements could never apply to a human king but, they do apply to Lucifer/Satan who is behind the human king. This angel is the highest creature the LORD ever created. The LORD says of him, "You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty." Satan was the wisest creature God ever created. No other angel, no other being was created with the intelligence that God gave to this creature. God says that this creation is "perfect in beauty." Apart from the Holy Trinity; Father, Son and Holy Spirit, this creature is today the highest being.

In verse Ezekiel 28:14 it says, "You were the anointed Cherub." This tells us we are not talking about a human king. The word cherub is singular for cherubim. The cherubim are symbolic of God's Holy presence and His unapproachable majesty. These cherubim occupy a unique position. The "anointed cherub who covers" is the picture given to us in the Garden of Eden after Adam and Eve had been sent out and God had placed cherubim to guard the way of the tree of life. Also, when Moses made the mercy seat and placed it into the tabernacle's Holy of Holies, God's glory came and dwelt between the cherubim. They "covered" the mercy seat with their wings. So we now see that Satan was a cherub and his position was to guard the very throne of God. His position was that of protecting the holiness of God. Satan had the highest of all positions, a position which he despised and lost. We have here in Ezekiel a picture of the highest of God's creatures, perfect in wisdom, beautiful beyond description, a musician and on top of all that, he was given this high, exalted position. But, this creation, with all of these wonderful attributes also had a free will. One day, God says to this marvelous creature, "Iniquity was found in you."

Story of Lucifer – His Status
What kind of iniquity was found of him? In the book of Ezekiel, God has let us stand with Him at the very beginning, to see the origin and the creation of Satan. But, why does God say this? What is this iniquity? We must look back to Isaiah 14:12, which tells us of Lucifer/Satan's choice. "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High." Did you notice in this passage all of the "I wills. " He said he would exalt his throne above the stars of God. The word "stars" here does not refer to what we see in the night sky. It refers to the angels of God. In other words, "I will take over heaven, I will be God." That is Lucifer/Satan's sin and that is the iniquity that was found in him. He does not want to be God's servant. He does not want to do what he was created to do. He wants to be served and there are millions who have chosen to do just that; serve him. They have listened to his lies and chosen to follow him. Eve believed the lie that she would be like God. The reason Lucifer/Satan tempted her with that was because it is the very thing that he wants -- to be God

Originally posted by lilblam
Well, Jesus simply means Morning Star, which is something that brings light after darkness, and light represents KNOWLEDGE (truth).

No...Jesus does not mean Morning star. Jesus, if one could put a meaning on it means saved or savior.

It is most proper to call Him Yeshua. It was indeed his proper name, given to him by his parents, and only in Hebrew does this name have any meaning. In Hebrew Yeshua means both "Salvation," and the concatenated form of Yahoshua, is "Lord who is Salvation." The name Jesus has no intrinsic meaning in English whatsoever.

www.thenazareneway.com...

Isaiah was the prophet who penned the coming of the lord.

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Emmanuel in meaning is " God is with us "

Jesus is not the star that fell from heaven or he surely would have not said this:

And He said to them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning. 19 “Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you

It was not a Bible mistranslation, but a translational error of men.

One merely needs to reference the scripture in parallel to see that many of the translators didnt know which to choose. Some do not use Lucifer at all.

And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the pit.

When one person says ball, another says globe, and yet another sphere or orb. Hebrew translation can be contextual, with one word meaning more then one thing depending on how it used.

bible.cc...

Jesus announces himself to the churches through the following in Revelation:

The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this:

The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:

The One who has the sharp two-edged sword says this:

The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this:

He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this:

He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this:

The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

I know of a man who is east Indian. He asked me at one time about the Bermuda triangle in which I told him that it was a place of storms and odd weather happenings.

He responded to me in his broken English and said " Angry water "?

Does Angry water = storm? Consider this and open your heart to the intent and will of the Lord God when reading the scripture.

Jesus warned us about this in terms of blind leaders:

Matthew
And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the pit.

[edit on 25-10-2008 by HIFIGUY]