LUCIFER - Biblical Mis-translation! Very interesting!

Originally posted by lilblam
. Knowledge is synonymous with TRUTH isn't it?

No, liblam. Knowledge is synonymous with FACT.

Truth is subject to point of view.




[Edited on 12-3-2004 by DeltaChaos]

Lilblam I can see by your edit you are in fast argue mode, but what you said truly does not make sense to me
personally.


You my friend, truly don't know why I believe this. there are so many things I could list in which happen that are amazing that only me and him know of, and I did not
grow up how you think I did, aand only at the judgement seat you will see what i mean, and I can't wait for this moment.



" You think you believe because you were scared of the punishement "


Nonsense. nonsense with all due respect.



You see, God is (me) in a sense of commandments. Don't you get it brother? even for a glimse of a second? If the God in the bible told me to go against every command, i would reject the bible because I, lilblam, I love the commands ever before hearing of God. This will never change, noone forces me to think this way.



You know?


I hate people who glory in defilement.


I hate robbers.

I hate filth and garbage and sick attitudes towards people.

I haate pride.



yet, I hated this before I ever heard of God.




You still don't get it? You seem to think you know why every human believes, and by your big LETTERS you seem to have thought you knew me which you don't


I couldnt deny what ive seen with machine guns aimed at my whole body.





" God says.


"" you have choice, but worship anything else and you burn "




wrong. God never put it like this. He says that if you don't believe in him then yu will be seperated for eternity. I can accept that. I mean if something is true and I blatantly deny it, the little peice of nothing that I am, than I deserve seperation.



Too bad you lilblam will never realize God loves you more than you love yourself. I mean if he has a kingdom and it will be exactly what you think of as paradise and you will live forever with him loving you, then whats the problem?



Is it some sin holding you back? Is it something he says that makes yu reject his love?


who would not want to be in paradise with a loving father who loves you more than yourself, who thinks your a precious piece of gold to him?




what you look for? Cassopians? they don't love you because they are told by fables that love is nonsense. They don't love you like God.



This is truly amazing. we will be sitting here until kingdom come when our prideful smiles on ATS when we seem to down the other person turn to looks of amazement.



Ill truly never understand you brother, then again, I meet alot of people with your belief all day.



If I could copy qoutes I would surely get to the rest of what you said to me.




God bless.



peace.

And don't take this as a put down. I don't mean it like this. I consider you a brother, you consider me a human with free will, so don't think im here to belittle you.



Its just we will be typing until judgement day arguing over nothing, when all along all we have to do is get away from the computer, sit in a slient room and thtink, think, think.


I know you may think you know my circumstances but you truly don't, and if I told you every moment of my life, you would understand, but you will see my life at the judgement seat, and I hope you know it then.




peace all, continue the topic.




[Edited on 12-3-2004 by Truth]

Originally posted by lilblam
Why don't you shine some LIGHT on this situation. Does this not talk about KNOWLEDGE? "I'm kinda in the dark here" does this not speak of LACK of knowledge?

These are cliches, liblam. If we must to rely on cliches to bring us closer to an understanding, then understanding will not occur. There is no reasonable defence in a battle of semantics.

Metaphors and cheap cliches are a bar to effective communication, much in the same way that expletives convey no true meaning.

Indeed Lucifer = HELEL or AZAZEL. Apparently Lucifer was a
REBEL ANGEL. This also the Root of the Prometheus "Bringer of Light" Mythology. Every REAL Christian should study the Greek Mysteries.

This has NOTHING to do with Satan. In Hebrew "Satan" means Accuser & Tempter. This was mostly a slur that was slung by Men towards Women! I find it funny that English speaking Fundamentalist Orthodox "Christians" don't really like to acknowledge that the Root of their Religion i.e. the OLD Testament is in-fact a HEBRAIC/JUDAIC document. Imagine how easy it must be for a Jew who DOES NOT Believe in "Jesus Christ" to Control their Actions!!!

I think that it is strange how the Old Testament God behaves in such a Tyrannous manner. It seems as if it wanted to keep its Creation totally under control - in an Ignorant & Zombie like state of Darkness & Obedience. It was the LIGHT that was the gift of Lucifer that changed this situation. In the very same Bible - Christ is eventually likened to Lucifer!!!

Now we live in the 21st Century. So as far as whether or not "Angels" & "Demons" are really Biblical Code for "Aliens" - the Jury is still out!!!

WHILE I DONT KNOW THE MAN I THINK HIS MASONITE VIEWS ARE DESCRIBED IN THE BIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING RUFF QUOTE

IF A MAN COME TO YOU AND SAY HERE IS GOD OR THEIR IS GOD DONT BELEIVE HIM FOR HE IS A DECEIVER

ALSO BY THE FOLLOWING

BEWARE FALSE PROPHETS FOR THEY SPREAD LIES AND WILL DECEIVE ,YOU MUST REMAIN VIGILANT BECAUSE THE LORD SAYS THOSE WHO ARE FAITHFUL UNTIL THE END SHALL HAVE A GREATER REWARD FOR GOD KNOWS ALL THINGS BOTH HIDDEN AND IN THE OPEN AND WILL SEARCH THE HEART OF MAN IN ORDER TO GIVE REWARDS TO TO TAKE REWARDS AWAY ACCORDING TO THEIR ACTIONS AND IF ANY MAN ADD TO OR TAKE FROM THE WORD SO SHALL GOD ADD MORE PUNISHMENT AND TO SUBTRACT FROM THEIR REWARDS

Lucifer is indeed Latin.

Lucifer was a sun god of the etruscans/romans. he was later renamed appolo. he was the god ofthe sun and the dawn, and the brother to diana.

I tried explaining this to my mom, buy she clammed up.

There are many mistranslations and/ or misunderstood words in the Christian bible!

The English word, "spirit", is used 217 times in the New American Standard Version of the Old Testament. Using my Holman's New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, I find that in 213 cases, the original Heb/Aram word behind the English word "spirit", is the Heb/Aram word "ruach". That is to say, that in only 4 uses of the English word, "spirit", was there a word in the original text that was NOT "ruach".

This word, "ruach", also occurs in other places in the Old Testament. For whatever reason, in those passages, the translators felt it best to use another English word, other than "spirit". Here are the other words they chose:

air (used 2 times), anger (1 time), blast (2), breath (31), breathless (1), cool (1), courage (1), despondancy (1), exposed (1), grief (1), heart (1), inspired (1), mind (3), motives (1), points (1), quick-tempered (1), side (4), sides (2), strength (1), temper (2), thoughts (1), trustworthy (1), wind (96), winds (8), windy (2), wrath (1).

Now, to get a sense of the usual uses of the word "ruach", here are some selected (few) passages containing the word. In each verse, you'll find one or more words in ALL CAPS, which indicates the English word that has been translated from the word "ruach". Obviously, I cannot type out all 213 occurances, so these are my own selections.


Genesis 1:2
"And the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep; and the SPIRIT (ruach) of God was moving over the surface of the waters."

Genesis 7:20-22

The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered. And all flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath (neshamah) of the SPIRIT (ruach) of life (chayyim), died.

2 Kings 2:15

Now when the sons of the prophets who were at Jericho opposite him saw him, they said, "The SPIRIT (ruach) of Elijah rests on Elisha." And they came to meet him and bowed themselves to the ground before him.

Psalm 31:5

Into Thy hand I commit my SPIRIT (ruach); Thou hast ransomed me, O Lord, God of truth.

Psalm 51:10-11

Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast SPIRIT (ruach) within me. Do not cast me away from Thy presence, And do not take Thy Holy SPIRIT (ruach) from me.

(The word "ruach" is also used to denote "evil spirits"...)

Job 4:15

"Then a SPIRIT (ruach) passed by my face; The hair of my flesh bristled up.

The word "soul". is used 244 times in the New American Standard Version of the Old Testament. Using my Holman's New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, I find that in 240 cases, the original Heb/Aram word behind the English word "soul", is the Heb/Aram word "nephesh". That is to say, that in only 4 uses of the English word, "soul", was there a word in the original text that was NOT "nephesh".

This word, "nephesh", also occurs in other places in the Old Testament. For whatever reason, in those passages, the translators felt it best to use another English word, other than "soul". Here are the other words they chose:

any (1 time), any-one (3), appetite (7), being (2), beings (3), body (1), breath (1), corpse (2), creature (6), creatures (3), dead (3), deadly (1), death (1), defenseless (1), desire (12), desire (2), discontented (1), endure (1), feelings (1), fierce (2), greedy (1), heart (5), heart's (2), herself (12), himself (23), human (1), hunger (1), life (148), lifeblood (2), lives (34), living creature (1), longing (1), man (4), man's (1), men (2), mind (2), myself (2), ourselves (3), own (1), passion (1), people (3), perfume (1), person (90), slave (1), some (1), some (1), strength (1), themselves (6), thirst (1), throat (2), will (1), wish (2), yourself (24)




The Hebrew word 'shamayim' which is defined as �the sky', the place where the clouds and stars are, or 'shamayin', the Aramaic word of the same definition. Psalms 68:4 it is translated from the Hebrew, arabah, � the desert � 77:18 the word is galgal, Hebrew for � wheel or whirlwind '
89:6 & 37 where it is translated from the word shachaq, Hebrew for � powder or thin vapor �.

The Hebrew word for angel is mal'ak, which means to dispatch as a deputy; messenger; ambassador. The Greek word for angel is aggelos, which means to bring tidings; a messenger. The word angel is used, in one form or another, 198 times in the Bible. Common angels are real personal beings with personal bodies and personal souls including feelings, emotions, passions and desires as well as personal spirits including all intellectual powers as we know them.

The Bible is the Abridged Version. There have been close to fifty versions or translations of the bible throughout history and there are actual large volumes of gospels that were omitted from the ultra-popular King James version. Essentially, as soon as someone found a disparity, which was invariably, they would excise a chapter that didn't agree with their version of Christianity. This led to the formation of God's Beatles - Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John - whose gospels were chosen as the definitive volumes.

Originally posted by drbryankkruta
WHILE I DONT KNOW THE MAN I THINK HIS MASONITE VIEWS ARE DESCRIBED IN THE BIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING RUFF QUOTE

IF A MAN COME TO YOU AND SAY HERE IS GOD OR THEIR IS GOD DONT BELEIVE HIM FOR HE IS A DECEIVER

Why not try using the correct grammar, form and syntax so that you can be understood properly before being dismissed out of hand?

The problems that occur over the word "Lucifer" are not those of a mis-translation. They are a mis-interpretation. Big difference.

The argument over the semantics of the word are a waste of time anyway. Lucifer as the devil and Lucifer as the bringer of light are two totally different things. The name itself loses it's meaning and is worthless.

I don't think anyone would worship the satanic interpretation (albeit probably false). On the other hand, the morning star/Jesus interpretation doesn't have any downside other than having the stigma of the word "Lucifer" being attached to it and being condemned merely because of association with the false interpretation.
Lucifer is just a word.

Hello Lilbalm :

AS YOU MUST KNOW BY NOW...

The word Lucifer is a compound LATIN word derived from TWO separate Latin words: LUX =�light� + FERO =�I carry� ) hence: LUCIFER: �Bearer of the Light�... (NB it has BOTH positive AND negative connotations).

But....it is NOT Greek. It is NOT Hebrew. It is NOT English.

And the word LUCIFER does NOT occur in ANY of the the known Greek texts of the Apocalypse of Yohanon the Elder, whoever he was, i.e. the so-called �Book of Revelation.�

There are more 6 contradictory Manuscript families in Greek for the book "of revelation". The word LUCIFER is not used in ANY of them:

The word "LUCIFER" only starts to occur in the Latin Version of the Book of Revelation completed by Jerome in AD 405---who used the official Christian Greek Old Testament (Septuaginta, or LXX) to translate the phrase derived from Isaiah 14:12

Of course, the �Book of Revelation� (of course) could not possibly have used the word �LUCIFER� anyway since the book was NOT originally written in Latin, but crude Koine Greek badly translated out of Hebrew and Aramaic original material from OT scraps of Hezekiel and Jeremiah, the Books of Henoch, the Plagues of Egypt, the Morning and Evening Tamid Psalms of the Jewish 2nd Temple Ritual, the books of Proto and Trito Isaiah, Zechariah, Malachi, Joel and Daniel etc.)

The gramatically awkward Greek of the �book of Revelation� does not say �Bearer of the Light�, it says, �I AM IESOUS THE BRIGHT AND MORNING STAR� which points back to a non-Septuagint Greek LXX phrase in the later Hebrew Masoretic Text Version of Isaiah 14:12

O, how art thou fallen, Thou Son of the Morning Star, from Heaven !

One wonders why the book of "Revelation" did not use the Greek official translation of the Old Testament (the book was written in Greek, however crude): this would point to the conclusion that "Revelation" was originally written in Hebrew using a different version of the Old Testament (like some of Matthew's Prophecies and OT citations) than the LXX, perhaps some kind of Aramaic Targum paraphrase set into Greek.

As you may already knowl the familiar Masoretic Hebrew text of Isaiah 14:12 used by Jews today in the synagogues worldwide (which can be dated from AD 800 in Leningrad from SINGLE manuscript) is MUCH LATER than the Hebrew which was used to make the Greek Translation (LXX) of the Old Testament in BC 200, some of which was found still in tact in Hebrew among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The phrase :�Bearer of the Light� derives from the LATIN VULGATE TRANSLATION BY JEROME OF THE GREEK LXX Septuaginta Greek Old Testment (LXX) of BC 200 of Isaiah 14:12: itself derived from an OLDER Hebrew Text Version of Hebrew Scriptures predating the year 200 BC.

The LATIN VULGATE chose to translate the LXX rather than the Masoretic Hebrew text families which were not finished for another 400 years, but were certainly circulating in some kind of Masoretic Form during the time of Jerome (the MT emerged into recogniseable shape around AD 200).

Why did JEROME USE A DIFFERENT OLD TESTAMENT VERSION FOR ISAIAH 14:12 THAN THE AUTHOR OF REVELATION?

The Greek phrase �ho 'Eosphoros ho proianatellon� is rendered in the Latin Vulgate as �Lucifer� (i.e. bearer of the Light�i.e. that rose in the morning) and is ONLY derived from the LXX GREEK TRANSLATION OF THE OLDER HEBREW VERSION OF ISAIAH THAN THE MASORETIC TEXT USED BY JEWS TODAY.

So...the term �LUCIFER� comes ONLY from a LATIN TRANSLATION of the Greek LXX phrase �Bearer of the Light� (but NOT the Masoertic Hebrew phrase �Son of the Morning Star�)

Perhaps that�s what's confusing so many people on this thread about this curious phrase "Luci-Fer"...

the LATIN VULGATE here actually ignores the "official Christian" Septuaginta LXX Greek rendering and sides more in with a DIFFERENT version of the Masoretic OLD TESTAMENT Text family --which may be one of the reasons why the book of "Revelation" was considered "heretical" for the first 300 years of its existence !

The phrase: �I AM IESOUS: THE OFFSPRING AND ROOT OF DAVID: THE BRIGHT AND MORNING STAR� is in fact a �Messianic confession� used by Messianic Jews long before �Jesus� was even born as a FORMULA for the expected MESSIAH OF THE JEWS, descended from KING DAVID, who was to overthrow the Persians, later the Greeks, and later the Romans, all of whom had occupied Palestine.

The �Son of the Morning Star� originally meant to describe what we call today the Planet Venus, but which they thought was the brightest "star" in the sky just before dawn, which pre-figured the rising of the Sun each morning, and Arbarbanel points out that this star, namely Venus, is the �heavenly prince of Babylon� in other words, Babylon�s protective Deity or god.

Many cultures worshipped Venus in this regard, not the least of which were the Maya to judge from the few Mayan texts that survived the Massive Burnings of Mayan and Aztec literature by the Catholic Church (AD 1520-1620) which had been written on rolls of Tree Bark (4 are now housed in Museums in and around Berlin).

The Apocalypse of Yohanon the Elder (aka the Book of Revelation) spends a great deal of the text on the subject of the overthrow by the Elect of Israel of the Symbolic Babylon (i.e. Rome) taking verses from Jeremiah and Hezekiel as his model (the author quotes most of it in Midrashic Fashion).

Don�t forget that the socalled �Book of Revelation� was compiled from Apocalyptic �end of days� old testament and apocryphal scraps originally DURING the failed 1st Jewish Revolt Against Rome (AD 66-72) using Babylon as a code name for the Empire.

The Hebrew Masoretic Text word of Isaiah 14:12 that the "book of Revelation" seems to be translating is HEYLEL. It means the morning star or the day star from the sense of brightness : HALAL can mean clear and hence �to shine with clarity.�

HENCE: it has BOTH positive AND negative applications in that it can mean to boast or to glorify, to glory, to give light. In other words, this verse gave rise to the Praise of the Messiah (bringer of the Light) as well as to Denounce the Boaster (i.e. Satan).

It can mean to feign madness in the negative application. In the sense that it is used in a positive sense and applied in the form as it developed over time: Heylel, it is as Morning star or Day star.

Historically, the phrase �How you have fallen down from the heavens, O shining star son of the morning !� originally meant to indicate (by the author of Proto (1st) Isaiah) the �prophetic fall� of the King of Assyria who had militarily occupied the Israelites of northern Kingdom in Ephraim in 722 BC.

The 10 Tribes who were LOST as a result of Assyria�s conquering the Northern Kingdom of Israel were supposed to be BROUGHT BACK to Israel by the MESSIAH (or �Christ�), so this verse was used in various ways to draw these ideas together by Messianic Jews and early Christians.

But t originally the phrase had nothing to do with SATAN (or to the MESSIAH for that matter). These were LATER reflections on the text of Isaiah 14:12

The phrase as used in the Greek �Book of Revelation� refers to a WARRIOR DAVIDDIC KING MESSIAH who was expected to liberate Palestine from the Yoke of Rome (see Luke chapter 24: �and we thought he (�Iesous�) would be the One who would Redeem Israel from its enemies��)

This was one of the expected functions of the Jewish Messiah (Gk: Christ) to overthrow the �gentile� Occupation in Israel, and Bring Back the Elect of the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel Scattered among the Gentiles (i.e. Jews of the Diaspora).

The historical �Jesus� failed in his armed coup attempt against Rome and was crucified as an armed seditionist in breach of the Roman Lex Maiestatis (no King by Caesar law) during the reign of Tiberius, see Luke chapter 22:10-20), but that did not keep his followers "from revering his memory" (to quote Josephus) and using Messianic Slogans which they placed into his mouth ("I am Iesous the Bright and Morning Star...")

The Hebrew Masoretic Text phrase �Son of the the Dawn� (sometimes in the plural �Sons of the Dawn� possibly the followers of the Son of the Dawn, where they are warned by the Teacher of Righteousness to repent or else) was used as early as the Dead Sea Scrolls (BC 250 to AD 68) NOT ONLY as a pejorative against proud Rulers, but ALSO as a kind of Title for the Jewish Warrior Messiah to Come (�bearer of the Light�) i.e. as a kind of Herald to the Coming �Messianic� Kingdom, in which all the gentile �Kittim� (Romans) would be annhialated.

So, in summation: the curous Latin phrase �Son of the Morning Star" has both a POSITIVE as well as a NEGATIVE connotation to 1st century Messianic Jews and �Jewish Christians� who made use of books like �Revelation� to foster hope in the hearts and minds of the Jews who were fighting for the Rebellion against Rome during the Jewish War.

Which they lost.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos

Originally posted by lilblam
. Knowledge is synonymous with TRUTH isn't it?

No, liblam. Knowledge is synonymous with FACT.

Truth is subject to point of view.




[Edited on 12-3-2004 by DeltaChaos]

I meant that knowledge is always true, that false knowledge isn't knowledge at all. And truth is objective reality, it represents what IS, not what we'd like it to be. "Synonymous" is the wrong word to use here, it implies identical. Knowledge may always be truth, but it doesn't mean that there aren't TRUTHS that you have no knowledge of, obviously. Thanks for catching that.

And if truth is objective, then it's not subject to individual point of view, although certain truth is subject to a specific reality. And the reality we experience is defined by our awareness. However, when you speak of point of view, each one of us can have a different point of view. But we all share the same basic awareness of reality. Our individual point of view is a combination of subjective judgements, and assumptions. If one removes both, what is left is the objective reality that you experience based on your level of awareness.

Some truth is true only within the context of that consensus reality.
Some truth is universally true, regardless of awareness or reality.

For example, the phrase "The Sky is above us" is only true in a reality where one perceives the sky, and where one perceives a 3-dimentional reality and "above" makes sense. On another level of awareness, words like "above" or "below" might not have any meaning (say if you experience things in 4 dimentions or 2 dimentions), and one may not perceive anything that looks like the human perception of "the sky".

This would be an example of a truth only within the context of a specific reality, which is defined by our awareness, or perception.

An example of a universal truth is: "There are different levels of awareness" or "I exist" (when applied to yourself). So you'd take a tree, a monkey, a snail, a human, and they all have different levels of awareness. This remains true no matter if you're a human, or the tree.

(Though the definition of what "existance" means changes with level of awareness, the fact that SOMETHING exists remains TRUE throughout all levels).

-Mike

To upset christians...hmmmm....well it's not working with me! I think it's laughable how ya keep trying to tick off christians...is it what you dreamed of being as a child???to be a christian antagonist? I find that people who are from weird religions are the most intolerant of people.

No the Hebrew doesn't say Lucifer it says heylel the root of which is "halal=to shine; hence to make a show, to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish: to rave; caus. to celebrate; also to stultify:--(make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make). fool (-ish, -ly), glory, give (light), be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, (sing, be worthy of) praise, rage, renowned, shine."

Satan, Lucifer, Dragon, Serpent, (which ever title you prefer me to use so that we don't have to contend on that point) was in heaven, created to be beautiful, talented, the leader of the congregation of heavenly beings, who led the songs of praise to God. His musical instruments were built into him. He was one of God's angels allowed to come close to Him. His pride got lifted up and he got thrown out of heaven. He now wanders the earth trying to fool people...looks like he's got you all wrapped up. Do you really think you can quote satan's disciple to sway a child of God....yes it is very laughable !!

Originally posted by SOTERION 5
To upset christians...hmmmm....well it's not working with me! I think it's laughable how ya keep trying to tick off christians...is it what you dreamed of being as a child???to be a christian antagonist? I find that people who are from weird religions are the most intolerant of people.

Like Christianity? Yes you're right! You can't even tolerate objective research that has nothing to do with "bashing" anything. I'm just revealing the truth, but you are from a "weird religion" so you're not very tolerant are ya!

No the Hebrew doesn't say Lucifer it says heylel the root of which is "halal=to shine; hence to make a show, to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish: to rave; caus. to celebrate; also to stultify:--(make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make). fool (-ish, -ly), glory, give (light), be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, (sing, be worthy of) praise, rage, renowned, shine."

Satan, Lucifer, Dragon, Serpent, (which ever title you prefer me to use so that we don't have to contend on that point) was in heaven, created to be beautiful, talented, the leader of the congregation of heavenly beings, who led the songs of praise to God. His musical instruments were built into him.

Ah so he was kinda like a human with a drum for a head, a trumpet for a nose, and piano keys for fingers, and a harmonica behind? Such creativity...

He was one of God's angels

So am I! God is all there is, and I'm part of God, so I'm also God as well. All the power of God and all that exists is within me already, just unaccessed consciously for now. Let's hear your definition of "God". Or not yours rather, but what you were conditioned to believe in order to enslave you and your mind, so you remain forever a pawn and a slave of those who control you through such lies and manipulation. But feel free to define God as you were told to define him. So what is God?

allowed to come close to Him. His pride got lifted up and he got thrown out of heaven. He now wanders the earth trying to fool people...looks like he's got you all wrapped up.

Hey, you're the one who believes books written to control, condition, program, and enslave your entire being (Bible). You're the one who believes allegories and pretends they are literal. You also believe lies, because you practice ignorance and wishful thinking - you'd rather assume what sounds good to you, and what is simple, instead of learning the truth which may not be pleasant, and may be infinitely complex. But feel free

Do you really think you can quote satan's disciple to sway a child of God....yes it is very laughable !!

You're right, did I really hope that years of mind programming and conditioning could be removed from your mind just by reading a little hint of the truth? Not really, this wasn't meant for you, it was meant for someone whose mind is JUST a little bit open in the very least, who is not a complete puppet/slave of his "master" or "God".

Your own FEAR to question your "beliefs" has you bound and imprisoned, constricting your thoughts and action, and causing you to fearfully ridicule anything that strays from your beliefs/assumptions/wishful thinking/programming. But have fun with that.

I'm not into hierarchies, with "leaders" such as "God" at the helm. I am a free spirit, though temporarily a slave due to my presense on the planet. But so are you, yet you bought into the temporary illusions/lies that are presented to you on this planet, to make you fearful, materialistic, ignorant, and basically, a slave. I choose knowledge instead of ignorance. Freedom instead of slavery. Awareness instead of wishful thinking. Service to OTHERS instead of service to self (though I can not be STO in this lifetime, only on the path to it).

On the other hand, you have very little choice in anything. You are a machine, a puppet, and your programming defines you, your instinctual/reactive mechanisms based on fear of "punishment" (like hell) and desire for "reward" (like heaven) rule you.

But don't get me wrong, I'm also not writing this for YOU, as this will go right over your head. I'm writing this for others, who have eyes to see, and can fight off their "fears" of being punished by their "God(s)" for questioning their "word".

Cya

-Mike

[edit on 22-7-2004 by lilblam]

You're all wrong

1. Sun of the Morning is Venus the Morning Star and what Lucifer is mistranslated from

2. Venus in latin is Lucifer or Luciferius see www.Luciferius.com

3. Jesus claimed the title of MORNING STAR or Lucifer in latin or Ben Shakur in Hebrew

When a jew rabbi says he is BEN SHAKUR he is claiming the name of the ben shakur of Isaiah or whom you now refer to as Lucifer

I am an elder of TOL, Temple of Lucifer

I KNOW THE TRUTH

Read

www.Bookoflucifer.com

HAIL SATAN
HAIL LUCIFER
HAIL SOLLOG
HAIL REX LUCIFERIUS

Originally posted by satans
When a jew rabbi says he is BEN SHAKUR he is claiming the name of the ben shakur of Isaiah or whom you now refer to as Lucifer
I am an elder of TOL, Temple of Lucifer

Oh dear. You're not a very good Satanist if you believe that Lucifer is another name for Satan.
When a Jewish Rabbi says he is "Ben Shakur" he doesn't actually go anywhere near the word "Lucifer". Why would he translate the word out of it's original language? Especially into a mistranslation!!!

godward.org...

I believe that Heaven is Space......That Mars was the origin of life on Earth
and that Mars was destroyed by a fantastic space based Nuclear war and that destroyed it's moons and the planet itself, Furthermore that a small
portion of the population (the elite) escaped to Earth and other planets to start life anew.

God was the ruler of Mars and Lucifer his right hand man that betrayed him and also escaped to earth. This can be verified by taking specific radiation samples from the soil on Mars and it's moon. Isn't it funny how just now
we are returning to that planet? (after the half life of radiation from Nuclear Warfare and the time it took to recover the lost technology).

"God" or "Jesus" will return to re-claim his Kingdom on Earth and defeat
Satan or Lucifer. I believe in GOD, the Creator of Heaven, Earth and my SOUL. Not in a book or Religion created by man.

Well SOTERION - I would take the SERPENT (=WISDOM) over a Petty, Intolerant, Vindictive, Cruel, Egotistical, Ect. - "God" - Any day of the week!!!! The same "God" that was so found of saying "KILL them ALL".
I consider myself a Christo-Pagan. I see "God" in NATURE. Science has overtaken Religion at this point anyhow - but I still see positive attributes in Spirituality!

WEAK MINDEDNESS gives Christianity a Bad Name!!! Can we please just do away with the Dogmas & look at this stuff Objectively? See what a can of worms we open up when examining the History & Origins of Christianity? For as long as I could remember Christianity & Judaism was whatever the Church Priest & Synagogue Rabbi SAID IT WAS! If you don't think that they CHANGED the Religion to suite their POLITICS over Time/History then you are just plain Gullible & should get a clue!!!

i dissagree that satan is a bearer of true light and that calling the morning star "satan" is blasphemy of the true God and christ. this star you speak of i have had an expirience with, and it brought to me the revelation of christ in me. i had two freinds with me (they will not come forward to tell what they saw) but they are witnesses to what happened when the morning star came.
i had been watching this star rising in the east that i knew was not human or natural.
on july 25th 1999, i was afraid to look at the star for some strange reason.
i went inside and in a moment i felt like my soul was burning within me.
at the same moment my two freinds started yelling and crying (they were still outside) i asked them what was going on.
the one said to me " it's setting up its kingdom" "don't be left behind."
and "i pray for your soul."
so i asked the other what they had seen.
she said they saw something shoot out of the star and hover the house top above where i was.
now for the next week i saw the revelation unfolding on the inside.
like a scroll being projected into my mind.
and once i thought about it, i began to truly believe in Gods words.
i was baptized and rescued from the firey feelings by the one and only jesus christ.
he came down with a chain in his hand and wrestled the evil spirit that had kept me bound into sin and ungodlyness.
i knew he wanted to be in my heart so i agreed to let him "occupy" me.
i found out the law of God by means of that fire that would burn my insides when i would smoke or swear or sin.
so i dicontinued sin and was filled with the real fire of the holy ghost. now began the test, but anyway during this time i witnessed the star shooting out of itself toward the south and go to someone there(i do not know who)
i saw christ when i was pure. he is beutiful and rays of light and power radiate from him. christ is the morning star but also has the power to burn your ungodly soul. this will make you fear him.
it says in revelation "any man who worships the beast or his image or takes his mark will be tormented with fire in the presence of the lamb and his holy angels. people always say that ufos are the devils, but they forgot that they were once angels. so then i believe in two different groups of these being at war with each other over our immortal souls.
and maby satan even has a star of his own, but the one i know and love is christ. i imagine the devils star to be located in the constellation draco. in revelation it says "michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels, and the dragon prevailed not but was cast into the earth."

reply to post by lilblam


I always marvel at how people so love their reasonings, as if logic can lead to the knowledge of the holy and of God.

There are two possible ways in which scripture can be interpreted.

One is by physical means the other is by supernatural means.

Physical means is the most common way you see people try and understand the bible and is usually thought of as self interpretation.

Self interpretation is the idea that you can, by knowing syntax, the official definition of words, the laws of grammar and such, using reason and logic in your readings, acquire a working applicable understanding of the will of God for your life and the life of others.

Spiritual interpretation is the idea you can, by believing God works in you to guide and enlighten, receive revelation knowledge and wisdom while searching the scriptures, using supernatural means to acquire a working applicable understanding of the will of God for your life and the life of others.

Self interpretation requires that a certain book or text be identified as given by God, such as Christians mostly think is the case with the bible.

Christians mostly say that only the bible is Gods word, and if you want to understand the will of God that is where you have to look, because Gods will can not be found anywhere else.

In self interpretation the knowledge was received by supernatural means, revelation or inspiration, like is claimed with the bible and its writers, but the interpretation is acquired by physical means, the use of logic and reason.

To acquire the best interpretation using self interpretation it becomes imperative that you come as close to using the original text, the original language, and that you identify any and all added words and mistranslations.

Spiritual interpretation allows anything formed or made which is inspired by God to be used as scripture, whether if it is written, like the bible or Koran, drawn like a painting, or chiseled like a statue, anything formed or made by the hand of man which is inspired by God can be used as scripture for obtaining the will of God.

In spiritual interpretation the knowledge is both receieve and interpreted by spiritual means, revelation is used to acquire the information and revelation is used to gain understanding.

Spiritual interpretation does not in any way depend on using the original text, the original language, and it does not matter how many words or mistranslations have occurred.

Personally I think it is a waste of time to talk about individual words and such because only the individual by spiritual means can obtain knowledge of the holy using inspired works like the bible.

If the bible is indeed the word of God then it was given by revelation.

If the bible was given by revelation then why wouldn't revelation be required to understand it or garner the will of God from it?

reply to post by lilblam



Oh my this topic can stir up a hornet's nest.

Ive tried to bring this up before and even had a whole thread for it. The thread descended into mostly bickering and near fanatical defense of the false myth.

It isn't a mattern of interpretation or belief. Its a matter of reading the Bible in context. That means don't pick and choose verses. People need to read the whole books or at least chapters that the verses came from and look at the material in context, the Hebrew/Jewish and historical context.

The Fact is your right that the Latin word Lucifer does not exist in the Hebrew Bible. It is also Fact that the King of Babylon in Isaiah is not the Satan of Job and Zechariah.

Here is another Fact most people overlook, scholars included, about that chapter in Isaiah. The chapter was Prophetic. Israel is singing about the fall of the King of Babylon. It is depicted as a future event at least from the time of Isaiah.

I thoroughly went over the whole chapter in context in another thread. The King of Babylon is even killed along with his children at the end of the Prophecy.

For some reason people are blinded by "Faith" and refuse to even accept what is written in their own Bibles.

The same can be said about the King of Tyre in Ezekiel, whom people also try to connect Satan. The King of Tyre is another Mortal who is killed just like the King of Babylon. I also thoroughly went over that chapter in context.

Alot of the near fanatical hostility comes from Christians who feel somehow their Faith has been shown to be flawed or incorrect. They feel as if their whole world view is being challenged by these Facts. I challenge Christians to pick up their Bibles and read for themselves, not just Ezekiel and Isaiah in Context, but the Gospels, Acts and Revelations. There is a very curious insanity about Judas between all of the Gospels and Acts. I would advise people to research the Book of Matthew, the Church of Jerusalem, and James. Find out whats the deal between Paul and Judaizers. Find out why James, the brother of Jesus, and the Church of Jerusalem rejected Paul. Look at what appears to be a condemnation of Paul and all the churches he founded in the Book of Revelations. Don't forget Jesus' sayings in the Gospels to the Apostles about preaching to the Gentiles, the Lost Sheep of Israel, and the comparisons he made between Gentiles, dogs, and swine. Don't forget to put dogs and pigs into context. I won't tell what to think, but just look at the information and decide if what you call Christianity is really the faith that Jesus called The Way.

Its all about objective and critical analysis. The Bible is filled with interesting and bizarre beings, ideas, and things. Lucifer is not one of them though. There are some writings about Fallen Sarim or "princes", fallen Bnai Ha Elohim "sons of Elohim", and even a threat by Hashem Himself to punish the Elohim with mortality. (Note: Hashem means "The Name" in Hebrew, it refers to the Tetragrammaton, the Divine Name. Basically its a nice and respectful way by Jews to refer to the Almighty. Plus it looks better than typing G-d.)

If anything, people need to be more critical and objective about the Bible. There are some things of High Strangeness that are ignored by the mainstream and even scholars like to dance around the subjects without really looking at it. One day I'll get around to posting a new thread covering some of them. Examples of some them: Whats the deal with the Humans from the Sixth "day" of creation and Adam in Eden? What was the Serpent in Eden and how is it connected to the Tannim? Who did Cain build the first city for? What are the Bnai Ha Elohim and the Nephilim? Why did Hashem judge the gods of Egypt? What is Azazel? Who or what are the Seventy Sons? What is Michael and who are the Sarim? What are the Elohim and who is Elyon? Whats the deal with the Curse of Mortality? Who are the Morning Stars? What is Satan? What is Leviathan and what does it have to do with the Tannim? What are the Shedim, the Seirim, and Lillith?

I could keep going. There's many more mysteries. I could probably write a whole book on my reserach of the subject. These are just among the things in the books of the Bible. So I havn't even included outside material like the Dead Sea Scrolls and the additional books it contains like Enoch and Jubilees.

So again for everyone reading, Critical and Objective thinking. Don't let preachers and priests think for you. It may challenge your world view, but think of it as a constructive challenge. One that will benefit you.