Blackwater : Right-Wing Conservative America, Whether You Like It Or Not...

Just a question that popped up in my mind as I was reading thru the posts here. If Blackwater is a "for-hire" company, is there anything stopping some billionaire from hiring them for lord knows what? There are lots of those billionaires around these days its seems, and I am sure there have to be more than a few kooks in the bunch. There always are, in any group of whoever, right? What is the risk there? If 2 or 3 of those guys got together they could hire themselves a small army.
Would that be allowed or is it only Homeland Security, or governments that have that privilege?

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
I'm only on the second chapter so far but this is a great book which was written without permission of Blackwater I should add. The author attempted to talk to people in Blackwater but they wouldn't budge. It outlines how Erik Prince is aligned with the Republican Party and how he has donated heavily to them throughout his life, which is not illegal but as we all know Republicans are all about giving money to companies so the companies can pay them off later or guarantee them a job as a CEO or some other position within their walls after a Republican's political life has ended.

I'm sorry, but this paragraph really irked me. And I think it shows a clear bias on your part. Since when is taking donations from companies and doing their bidding in the hopes of getting a job in your post-political life a "republican" thing? That's just plain BULL. It's not a republican thing, nor a democrat thing... it's a POLITICAL thing. And it is sadly a rather common thing these days in American politics. But to sit there and pretend as though republicans are the ones who are doing it really shows what kind of agenda you have.

Way to deny ignorance, man...

Here is a partial list of Democrat contributors to even things out a bit..

Contributor
Total

Goldman Sachs
$827,700

Friends of Jim Clyburn
$787,500

Hoyer for Congress
$690,000

Nancy Pelosi for Congress
$587,000

Barney Frank for Congress Cmte
$565,000

Kennedy for Senate 2006
$500,000

Rangel for Congress 2000
$455,000

Van Hollen for Congress
$435,000

Friends of Rahm Emanuel
$425,000

Friends of Congressman George Miller
$355,000

Crowley for Congress
$310,000

Becerra for Congress
$300,000

JPMorgan Chase & Co
$296,744

Bain Capital
$293,200

Renaissance Technologies
$291,000

Akt Development
$283,200

Weitz & Luxenberg
$277,650

Peterson for Congress
$273,950

A Lot of People Who Support Bingaman
$270,500

Williams Kherkher
$266,750

Open Secrets

Total = $135,985,564


As you will note : Plenty of Big Business, Contacts and money from who knows where...

In case there is any doubt, do we all not remember the constant turmoil around Hillary's Campaign finances?

Semper

Originally posted by Rasputin13

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
I'm only on the second chapter so far but this is a great book which was written without permission of Blackwater I should add. The author attempted to talk to people in Blackwater but they wouldn't budge. It outlines how Erik Prince is aligned with the Republican Party and how he has donated heavily to them throughout his life, which is not illegal but as we all know Republicans are all about giving money to companies so the companies can pay them off later or guarantee them a job as a CEO or some other position within their walls after a Republican's political life has ended.

I'm sorry, but this paragraph really irked me. And I think it shows a clear bias on your part. Since when is taking donations from companies and doing their bidding in the hopes of getting a job in your post-political life a "republican" thing? That's just plain BULL. It's not a republican thing, nor a democrat thing... it's a POLITICAL thing. And it is sadly a rather common thing these days in American politics. But to sit there and pretend as though republicans are the ones who are doing it really shows what kind of agenda you have.

Way to deny ignorance, man...

Rasputin13, I have to say I disagree with you in that I am specifically bad-mouthing Republicans. The books does outline Erik Prince's alignment with the Republican party that had to do with facts from the book totally. That was not My opinion in the least.

Admittedly, the comment about the Republican's essentially buying their way into securing a job is partially My opinion. I say partially because the book along with many others I've read does spell things out that this is exactly the way the Republican's do things. Yes, it's a political thing, not necessarily specifically a Republican way.

The way I have come to understand politics is the way I described Republican's there and that Democrat's do not act that way but rather take more lobbyist's money (legal bribery) or secure "campaign contributions" a lot more. While both sides accept lobbyist (legal bribery) money abd campaign contributions it seems to lean more to one side at times in the direction of the Democrats.

"Lobbying" altogether should be stopped since it is "legal bribery" by other legislators, constituents or organized groups. That's not to say the politician's wouldn't find another way to "get bought" on an issue that their constituents have no actual say over and what they were voted into office to stand for or against. Personally, I can not stand any politician, one side or the other.

Politician's are like diapers, they need to be changed often and for the same reason.

[edit on 4-5-2008 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

If you haven't seen this thread...

Rise of the Corporate Armies

and this topic interests you, take the time to read it. TheLibra has done an outstanding job on that thread.

That is what these private armies are about.They do go to the highest bidder. They don't care about your freedoms or your rights, New Orleans proved that.

It isn't a party issue either. The founder may have close ties with the Republicans, but I'm positive that if the Democrats win the Presidency, they'll have no problem going to work for them. The colour of their money is the same.

If the SHTF, don't worry about facing your own Military, although that will be an issue, it will be these people who will be kicking down your door and hunting you down.

reply to post by wayno

If Blackwater is a "for-hire" company, is there anything stopping some billionaire from hiring them for lord knows what?

Not at all. I have worked the last four years in private security. At one post I was under contract with NY State, all the rest were private individuals or companies.

Of course, the authorization to use lethal force might be considered a gray area, but consider this...My local nuclear power plant is secured by private contractors, and they most certainly will put the dead-smack on you with automatic weapons if they think you are a threat, and no one would question it.


[edit on 5/4/0808 by jackinthebox]

reply to post by wayno


And just to add...

Security personnel in the U.S. derive their powers not from the state, as public police officers do, but from a contractual arrangement that give them 'Agent of the Owner' powers. This includes a nearly unlimited power to question with the absence of probable cause requirements that frequently dog public law enforcement officers...

Source

This video is an example of mercenaries run amok. Somehow I don't believe that this is an isolated incident.

A word of caution, this video may not be suitable for minors. While it does not contain blood or gore, it certainly does display actual wanton violence, that some may (and should) find disturbing...

You know I take a day off and go see "Iron Man" at the movies with a friend and I come back to two more "APPLAUSE's" and this thread now has 24 flag's and a whole mess of star's as well. I have to say I am stunned to say the least. I was going to do a cheesy "I'd like to thank God, My agent, and all My fans" bit here but I won't. I digress. Just for clarification I began posting this because of the book Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army : Jeremy Scahill and I am still reading it and I am in chapter three now but I am spelling out the process as best I can but I did not expect this sort of response in the least.

I guess that's what ATS gets for deleting PTS now, huh? I was posting controversial topics there before but I've found the formula to make this thread rock with all of your assistance and feedback, even some of it being negative. I just had a great idea and looked for "Blackwater MOUT Training" on YouTube and found this neat training video.



For those of you who do not know what "MOUT" stands for, it stands for "Mock Urban Terrain" Training and some of you may be familiar with "MOUT" Training from the video game that used to be just a free "demo" disc from the Army "America's Army : Rise of A Soldier".

Here's another YouTube link to a story where Erik Prince is answering to a Congressional Hearing :



A question I have for everyone here is whether you think the story about the "17 Iraqi citizens" was a set-up by the Iraqi people or is the story true. I believe Myself in the total plausibility of being set-up as the fall guy. This being said I admit this is in direct conflict with almost all of My previous posts on this thread but only because I can understand war crimes, war ethics, and war propaganda. In this instance I am giving Blackwater and Erik Prince and his dedicated men the benefit of the doubt for once.

Here's a link to a YouTube video of Ozzy and Black Sabbath's "War Pigs" to set the mood for the thread :



[edit on 4-5-2008 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

[edit on 4-5-2008 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

A question I have for everyone here is whether you think the story about the "17 Iraqi citizens" was a set-up by the Iraqi people or is the story true.

Star for you! Nice objectivity.

I certainly believe that Blackwater is being black-eyed in certain instances, as a part of wartime propoganda.

On the other hand, I still am against the Nazi-esque rise of private armies without oversight. And as you can see from my video above, oversight is indeed needed. But for that matter, so is more accountability among our regular forces. "Taxi to the Darkside" now springs to mind.

EDIT to add:

Friggin awesome War Pigs vid.

[edit on 5/4/0808 by jackinthebox]

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


" Blackwater : Right-Wing Conservative America, Whether You Like It Or Not..."

I take issue with that comment for a cpl reasons.

Real Christians aren't for PHONEY wars...

And Real Christians are rarely seen on the PHONEY FREE PRESS NEWZ shows, whose only objective is to brainwash people by keeping them uninformed of what is going on in the world!

I used to naiively laugh at the russian news service TASS, because they had to clear everything through the POLITBURO...funny how, we [ a so-called free country ]now are them, except our politburo is disguised as an editor in cheif that has to answer to higher ups who are part of a conglomorate that owns most newz services , who conveniently frame most of the important issues of the day for us , that framework is meant to keep people limited to what is inside it.

If the reporter/newscaster ignores what the EIC has framed, they'll find themselves fired, and they know that, and WHO is gonna throw away a high paying job like that, because no one else will hire them after, because they'll be blackballed. Nice little set-up to tell perpetual lies with no consequences....and a flock of sheep who are controlled, without a shot being fired.

So, I guess I'm saying, that the "christian right", is not really Christian at all and are just more wolves in sheeps clothing, perhaps less harshly, they are just deceived.

In any event...

Do you also think those were real Christians that were protesting at soldiers funerals? If so, then you haven't figured it out either...


Anyways, there is nothing Christian about that group of thugs..."ye shall know them by their fruits"...not by what they say they are...

[edit on 4-5-2008 by toasted]

It is more isolated than it appears, I have been around Blackwater, back in Katrina they were guarding the FEMA administration in Baton Rouge. Nothing crazy going on, unless guarding the gate is suspect.

As for incidents over seas, they have different rulesof engagement, and are more free to interpret what limitations they have set on them.

I'm not defending those guys by any means, but it is not the group as a whole. Another thing, unless you have been over in Iraq, you will never know how hectic the $hit can get, one moment every thing is peaceful, as it can get any ways, and the nxt BOOM suicide bomber or IED attack. All in a split second.

Try not to blame any one until both sides of a story are known, because until then you only have half the truth. You have to be objective and look at things with an open, mind. Being biased is not makeing your self look better, just ignorant by choice.

reply to post by ADVISOR


I'd have to say that objectivity is a very tricky thing in this case. On the one hand, you do have chaos that even the best people would have trouble managing. And you also have a media and segment of the population that will jump all over the slightest mistake.

But on the other you have poor leadership that encourages illegal and immoral activity, while retaining the ability to censor much of whatever such activity might be happening.

Tough to say where the truth is.

But I still say private armies are a bad idea.

Interesting to note that the original poster calls Blackwater "right wing", while relying on a book full of untruths written by a known leftist as a source for his "information".

"Remain objective"

I'm perfectly objective, I am just having an objective reaction to seeing Blackwater "contractors" drive around Baghdad shooting random cars and causing car crashes and civilian death. And my objective reaction is outrage.

Perhaps you're right Slackerwire, but it's still a case of same **** different pile.

[edit on 4-5-2008 by Merle8]

reply to post by Merle8



And you know to a 100% certainty that they were in fact BWUSA contractors and not another company such as DynCorp, KBR, or 3CG?

A lot of awesome replies on this thread so far, even considering "the other side of the coin" so to speak in those who defend Blackwater. Having objectivity is definately difficult because this is a private army that answers only to the almighty dollar. Not to the Government under regular military constraints like the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marines.

This is plain and simple The Pentagon, The White House, and Department of Defense, along with the Department of State and C.I.A. playing "dirty pool" with warfare and totally bypassing all rules and regulations that are set in place in order to keep the checks and balances in place.

What I'm wondering here is if we've got UAV's or more aptly known Unmanned Aerial Vehicle's at the rest of the militaries disposal then why weren't they being deployed as a supplemental "force multipler" and reinforcement to assist Blackwater in their caravan's and escort's of diplomats across the Middle East in order to reduce the physical death's of Iraqi's whether civilian or insurgent's.



Come on now, I can't be the only person thinking of something like this. I've been reading about the UAV's and FLIR or Foreward Looking Infra-Red devices in Popular Mechanics since I was a child and teenager.

Something else I'm thinking about right now is where are Hillary Clinton's or Barak Obama's comments or on the use and utilization of the private armies overseas. Has anyone bothered to ask them about this or did I just miss that somewhere?

This all of course leans heavily back towards "War Profiteering" and would be vigorously defended by the old defense of "National Security". Anyone with half a brain knows this is of course a scare tactic and the cover-up where all the criminal activities of the Government are shuffled under the rug in order to keep "America Safe" for Democrary by hiding the lies, pay-offs, and treasonous actions of the corrupt politicians.


[edit on 5-5-2008 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

Just for clarification:

MOUT= Military Operations in Urban Terrain, not mock urban training.

BW's training facilities are top notch.

Here's another book I read about The Pentagon and the budget's they throw out to organization's like Blackwater, DynCorp, and Triple Canopy. It's called "Blank Check: The Pentagon's Black Budget : Tim Weiner" and it is very in depth as to how the system works within The Pentagon.

A review on Amazon :

From Publishers Weekly : This expanded follow-up to Weiner's Pulitzer Prize-winning 1988 Philadelphia Inquirer series exposing the Pentagon's secret treasury offers a comprehensive look at the origin and growth of this budget and the weapons and wars it has financed. Among the programs examined are the Stealth bomber (an "impossibly expensive mistake") and a satellite system called MILSTAR which is central to the plan to "win" a nuclear war that will already have been lost in the event of its activation.

Weiner brings to light black-budgeted activities of a cadre of colonels, retired generals and CIA agents, a virtual hidden army within the U.S. Army that "came close to hijacking a fair amount of power" during the Reagan years. This hard-hitting expose of power out of control, immune from accountability, is well documented. It reveals how the executive office, the Pentagon and the CIA have squandered billions of dollars on useless weapons and renegade foreign policies. First serial to Rolling Stone; BOMC alternate.

From the Library Journal on Amazon :

From Library Journal : In this book based on his Pulitzer Prize-winning series of articles for the Philadelphia Inquirer , journalist Weiner probes the way the Pentagon has used secret budgets to fund huge military programs. This has grown to the point that there are now more than 100 multimillion- and multibillion-dollar weapons systems, many of them nuclear weapons designed to fight and win World Wars III and IV, built without the awareness of the public or even the Congress.

Weiner takes a close look at programs such as the Stealth bomber and provides fascinating detail from Congressional testimony. The thesis of the book--that secrecy in government military programs is antithetical to democracy--is well documented and hugely important. As the Cold War draws to a close and military budgets come under attack, the public and Congress may tend to forget the defense establishment's inclination toward secrecy and self-perpetuation. Weiner's book serves as a timely reminder that this would be unwise. Highly recommended.

The book outlines also how a right-wing group of individual's almost took over the entire Government through The Pentagon's budget also. I went looking on YouTube and found this video :



A review I did on this book elsewhere :

This is a great book about the military industrial complex and how the Pentagon overblows their budget constantly in order to always spend their alloted "allowance" so "daddy" won't take it away. That of course is a silly reference to the budgetary malfeasance and misappropriations in order to keep the money flowing. If you've seen the movie, "The Pentagon Wars" with Kelsey Grammer you will know what I'm talking about here.

The reference to "The Pentagon Wars" here is only a reference and an analogy of what goes on inside The Pentagon.

[edit on 4-5-2008 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


It's interesting to keep in mind here, that Rumsfeld admitted to Congress, on the day before 9/11, that the Pentagon could not account for nearly a third of our entire national debt.

Is the national economy being driven into the ground like Flight 93 just so we can pay the mercenaries?