The Creation of Israel does NOT fulfill Biblical Prophecy

reply to post by biggie smalls


quote:the creation of israel does not fulfill bible prophecy?

if judah comprising the 3 tribes of judah/levi/benjamin were not living in the land of israel then the prophecy of Messiah's return to jerusalem israel to save the jews from annihilation (zechariah 12-14) could not be fulfilled so regardless of how He made sure they returned, in spite of enemies trying to prevent them------they are there waiting for their Messiah (zechariah 12:9-10)

enter, scholarly discussion,

of interest would be the Tel Dan inscription, a recent archeological discovery..

see: www.arts.ualberta.ca...

the academic debate revolves around the stone inscriptions about the 'King of Israel' and the seperate entity refered to a 'House of David'...
(or as the scriptures note that the Israelites became divided kingdoms,
the Jews & Priests on one side, the 10 lost and still indispersion 10 tribes known as Israel) on the other side. ~never the twain shall meet~)


Israel being the northern kingdom and the House of David being the predominately tribe of Judah...and the Rise of King David after Solomon both of the southern kingdom ---which is not Israel & never was...



the nation state that calls itself Israel, has not the heritage of Israel but of the House of David... so it is appropriate that the Star-of-David is the symbol for that nation... the Israel name is but a superficial flourish and is a misappropriated name that attemps to steal the prophetic rewards addressed to the proper 'Israel'

the House of David nation state is calling itself Israel instead of Judah

thanks,


:clarification to ZeroKnowledge & the following post:
(oh yes, i meant to say ...afterward Solomon, not as it it reads now, with the mistaken meaning that Solomon preceded David


thanks again

[edit on 20-6-2008 by St Udio]

reply to post by St Udio


I wonder how someone can say that there is a debate - which means that no conclusion is yet reached upon this theory, and then claim that the name Israel is stolen (no less!). Can you recall how the area was called until Romans burned Jerusalem?
So why it is not called now in this name?
Reason:
www.haaretz.com...

The same logic about stolen name will be successfully applied on Britain/England/France/Spain/... being stolen names, now wouldn't it?
Also, for the sake of scholar discussion - David was before Solomon.
I have problems with bible critiques since reading that when armies of coalition that are about to fight Assyrians are mentioned northern kingdom of Israel has way too much chariots for its side. This was an argument that of course several people considered valid. How many tanks/aircraft Israel has now, comparable to its size?
So if someone ,even with with greater knowledge then me (not a big problem really) and actually involved in research, states that he thinks Jerusalem was never a capital but a city state because of this single inscription and size in the supposed time of united kingdom - i am not convinced. And then someone "extends" it to identity theft....
I personally think that there was a single kingdom that got divided since there is no reason to lie and steal, no one else claimed to be descendant of this Israel. But as far as relations between Israel and Judea are described after split up (generally Judea good and Israel bad) - this only one side talking.

reply to post by yahn goodey


our prophet ezekiel says:when Messiah comes He will gather the sons of israel from among the nations where they have gone and bring them into their own land and make them one nation,in the land,on the mountains of israel;and one king will be over them all;and they will no longer be two nations;G-D's servant David will be king over them(ezekiel37)

judah has to be there now for prophecy to be fulfilled;the "lost" 10 tribes will join them after Messiah comes to rule the earth.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge


I wonder how someone can say that there is a debate - which means that no conclusion is yet reached upon this theory, and then claim that the name Israel is stolen (no less!).

The debate is around the interpetation of the insciption on the stone tablet/stella... & just what is meant by the term 'House of David'.
some say it means the southern kingdom Judah
others say it must mean the seat of "Jerusalem" where the threashingfloor
for wheat was to become the future Solomons Temple site.

Can you recall how the area was called until Romans burned Jerusalem?
So why it is not called now in this name?

the areas was both the Palestine, the Levant and Judea...Herod ruled the provence of Judea, which was not a contiguous land area to the exclusion of the other territories of Palestine and the levant... its also a Mediterranian Coast territory all intermixed and intertwined, but All the indigenous peoples still under the benign authority of the Romans



? As to why the 'historical' lands called Judea are now claimed by the modern nation-state called Israel........... that's where the usurping or even 'stealing' the name concept Israel comes in play,
by reason & logic, the modern state should have selected a name more appropriate that follows the promise to the House of David, or even ressurrecting the name Judah after the ancient Jewish kingdom which was the modern states ancestory & heritage.



Its pretty self evident why the leaders of ersatz-israel chose that name, and zionist-christians equate this manmade government with the prophetic rewars and chastizements that are ordained for the true & actual 'Israel' which is set up After the end-times transpire.


the modern Israel is not the prophecized Israel, just because it has that name...
just like some self proclaimed Messiah does not make himself a divinity just by calling themself Messiah or a christ II.


glad you read through the link....

The name Israel applied to this nation state may be a misnomer to begin with. The two nations that rose after the death of King Solomon were called Judah, under Rehoboam, and Ephraim, under Jeroboam. Ephraim later became Samaria. It is Ephraim that is yet to return.

The Star of David is another misnomer, imo. It is really the star of Remphan, or Chiun. The occult hexagram.

reply to post by biggie smalls


God uses people and organizations to do his will. Obviously He used the UN to reestablish israel.

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
The name Israel applied to this nation state may be a misnomer to begin with.

in a way your right, but like ZeroKnowledge (location: Israel.) [ btw ]
who argues that the Israel name was decided with a lot of consideration...but not with the eschateological baggage as the focus.


the Jewish state calling itself Israel...is in an larger sense within the boundaries of correctness for electing the identification as Israel.

because all the tribes known as Israelites were/are descendants of Jacob
to the exclusion of the rest of the family of humanity, who are refered to as Gentile people/nations, by those who would call us that.


But my point is that the tribe of Judah made a deffinite attempt to estrange themselves from the other Israelite tribes after the Babylon captivity and set up a seperate kingdom and people and coveted the city of Jerusalem, took it for themselves, etc.
? Why do they now, (well since 1948) put forth the false front that they are the full & total people known in the prophecies as 'Israel' ??

because of ulterior motives, which are not spiritually motivated or foundational to the reunification of the Dispensation of all Israelites.
calling themselves Judah or Jacobites as a nation or people would probably turned-off the Christian community who give modern 'Israel'
a far better shake than a Jewish state called Judah or Jacob (however than could be anglecized)

reply to post by St Udio


you will find in numbers33:51-56 that G-D tells moses that He has given the land to the sons of israel to possess by lot.in joshua 15:8/63 you find that jerusalem was part of the land that was judahs by lot and shared with benjamin on their 2 borders which 2 tribes combined with levi later and then those 3 tribes were called jews
in judges 1:2 Yahvah says judah should go up first to fight against the canaanites because He had given the land to them and in verse 8 that the sons of judah captured jerusalem.
so judah takes by lot and the edge of the sword by G-D's authority the land and the city He gave to them by lot.
judah is not lying by saying they are israel or israelites because they are.
there are 13 tribes all of which can say without lying that they are israelites.
i am a jew that was born in england which is part of the "lost" israelite tribe of ephraim-----i am not lying by saying i am either british jewish or an israelite.
and when Messiah returns the promise given to abraham genesis15:18 will be fulfilled by G-D.israels land then will extend from the nile to the euphrates.

reply to post by St Udio


The story is in the Book of Ezra.
There were two different empires that went to war against the two kingdoms.
The Assyrians were successful in defeating the Northern Kingdom.
The people were deported and were replaced with other tribes, from a foreign land.
The Southern Kingdom withstood the Assyrian attempt to take Jerusalem.
The Babylonians were successfull and removed the Jews.
The Babylonians were happy to leave the area desolate and did not replace the Jews with other foreigners.
Cyrus took over Babylon and made a decree for the Jews to return to their land and rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem.
The subsequent kings over Babylon (more Persians) honored the proclamation of Cyrus.
Over a period of time the edict was carried out.
During that time, many people presented themselves as wanting to be incorporated into the restored land of Judah.
They were not allowed because they were not of Israel but were the imported foreigners.


[edit on 22-6-2008 by jmdewey60]

The above post is history, according to Ezra.
Now there are several points that could be made, using this story.
The Jews probably would have taken in any people from the other tribes of Israel.
Only the three tribes were represented in Babylon who could be commanded to retake the land.
The order was specific to Judah and Jerusalem.
The Modern Israel was excluded from Judah and would have had a hard time of it trying to call themselves after a land that they did not posses.
Modern Israel was open to all the dispersed tribes and were not exclusive to those three tribes. (at least I think so, but in principle, that had to be the policy)

[edit on 22-6-2008 by jmdewey60]

[edit on 22-6-2008 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by St Udio


ZeroKnowledge (Israel,BTW! Even from that supposed "city-state".) here.
Judea kingdom included Judah and part of Benjamin tribe (and naturally Levi) , so why then call it only Judah? The same logic as why call it Israel if not all tribes are there, ha.
Also , i added link where people responsible for giving the name to current political entity speak. Of course they can lie, but you should check it.
And a couple of corrections - since Judaism had his own "crusades" period - there were not only Jacob descendants. Herod is one example of a large population being converted. Did not work very well then too.
Also in Judaism it is accepted fact (by all sects) that in Messiah times all tribes of Israel will be united, so no one is hiding other Israel people or trying to pretend to be what he is not.
Since Israel is another name of Jacob then i see no false pretend in those tribes that consider them self surely descendant of this person to take this name. Personally i would rather have Judah name, especially after WW2, but i can understand how ancient Jerusalem being in Jordan at the time will make it counter-productive

Don't forget Simeon. Simeon took its lot within Judah. Also, I believe Levi was given cities throughout the areas of all the tribes as they received no lot in the inheritance.

Joshua 18

7 But the Levites have no part among you; for the priesthood of the LORD is their inheritance.

Joshua 21

1 Then came near the heads of the fathers of the Levites unto Eleazar the priest, and unto Joshua the son of Nun, and unto the heads of the fathers of the tribes of the children of Israel;

2 And they spake unto them at Shiloh in the land of Canaan, saying, The LORD commanded by the hand of Moses to give us cities to dwell in, with the suburbs thereof for our cattle.

3 And the children of Israel gave unto the Levites out of their inheritance, at the commandment of the LORD, these cities and their suburbs.....

Also, Jerusalem wasn't conquered until the time of David. He first reigned in Hebron for seven years six months.

Joshua 15

63 As for the Jebusites the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the children of Judah could not drive them out: but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Judah at Jerusalem unto this day.

2 Samuel 4

6 And the king and his men went to Jerusalem unto the Jebusites, the inhabitants of the land: which spake unto David, saying, Except thou take away the blind and the lame, thou shalt not come in hither: thinking, David cannot come in hither.

7 Nevertheless David took the strong hold of Zion: the same is the city of David.

8 And David said on that day, Whosoever getteth up to the gutter, and smiteth the Jebusites, and the lame and the blind, that are hated of David’s soul, he shall be chief and captain. Wherefore they said, The blind and the lame shall not come into the house.

I have a sneaking suspicion the modern State of Israel is part of the great deception Christ spoke about.

Matthew 16

6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Matthew 15

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matthew 23

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

(all of Matthew 23, really)

[edit on 22-6-2008 by Icarus Rising]

First of all, the state of Israel is not the same as the nation of Israel. A state is simply a government, whereas a nation is comprised of culturally homogeneous groups of people, larger than a single tribe or community, which share a common language, institutions, religion, and historical experience. Is this true of Israel? Not at all. Israel was made, by Balfour, to be a state.

en.wikipedia.org...

Is the view that what we call Israel confirmed to be a state? Even on Israel's own foreign ministry website, it refers to the lands as the "STATE OF ISRAEL" and "THE STATE OF ISRAEL PROCLAIMED".

www.mfa.gov.il...

Let's not forget that the messiah was suppose to bring the lost 12 tribes of Israel, not just the jews and the muslims.
en.wikipedia.org...

Most of the tribes remain in diaspora, fulfilling the bible prophecy.

Also, it says in the Torah, Tractate Ksubos, folio 111, that the Creator, swore the Jews not to occupy the Holy Land by force, even if it appears that they have the force to do so; and not rebel against the Nations. As we all know, what we currently call Israel has been taken over by force. People talk about how it's "god's" will that Israelis won, well, how about how it's "God's" will that they be punished for violating their own sacred documents? Israel and Israelis haven't been in peace since they took that land. That should raise some flags, but I see it doesn't.

Also, beyond words, we should be able to judge a tree by its fruit. Does current Israel act and behave like Israel of the bible? Not at all.

ifamericansknew.org...
hustlermagazine.com...
www.israelnationalnews.com...

Also, if it was the Messiah that brought back the jews to Israel, why isn't he still alive, or do you seriously consider Rothschilde to be some sort of Messiah and that we're in the thousand years' peace?

You people are absolutely crazy. The evidence is clearly overwhelming. Politically, morally, legally, on every ground, what we call Israel is in violation, and we still debate whether it's the same as in the bible. I bet you still think America's #1, that there's WMD in Iraq, and brown people hate your freedom.

But let's get something clear. Israel does fulfill bible prophecy. It's just not the positive entity that you think it is.

[edit on 23-6-2008 by 1011010110]

[edit on 23-6-2008 by 1011010110]

reply to post by yahn goodey

posted by Yahn goodey
when Messiah returns the promise given to abraham genesis15:18 will be fulfilled by G-D.israels land then will extend from the nile to the euphrates.

The Peace of God to all that belong to the light,
Dear readers,

This quotation taken form the reply of one member that is Jewish is something that I found interesting for various reasons, let me check it a little deeply:

- When the Messiah returns, that is something that sounds intriguing comming from a hebrew, and in some sense comfortable since suggest the possibility that the Messiah came before this time, since if he returns is because he was here previously. It is possitive since the great mistake of the Jews and Levits was precisely that they didnt recognize in Joshua Ben Joseph, JesusChrist for the rest of the humanity, that Messiah.

- Other important point is that any promise given to Abraham was given to him and his entire descendence and let me recall that this descendents are not only the modern Jews and Levits, but also the conversed hebrews into the principal Christian denominations present in the middle east, like Orthodox, Copts, Armenians and Latins. These descendents as I mentioned in one of my previous replies are together with the Samaritans the majority of the so called lost Tribes of Israel.

Also that descendence of Abraham includes forcely the Arabs, as descendents of Ismael his primogenit, and the descendents of Esau, the also primogenit of Isaac and husband of one daughter of Ismael, that are in many aspects the modern Palestinians, and also the descendents of Lot, the other patriarch of the Palestinian People.

I think the claim that the Land of the current Jews and Levits will be everthing between the Nile and the Euphrates is the battle hymn of the Zionist movement, a very particular & fundamentalistic way to interpret the promise of a Messianic kingdom.

I hope that this misintepretation of the Gods will, does not drive millions of hebrews that are living in Israel and others that are being carried year by year in a very irresponsible way by fanatics to the Holyland, to a terrible national tragedy, something that could be even worst that the so called holocaust of WWII.

I pray for the peace between all the descendents of Abraham, an Iraqian man of God that was the father of the Faith and that never wished a terrible conflict among the sons of his sons.

Of course, as I stated in my first reply to this thread, I support with enough biblical evidence at hand that there is the creation of the modern state of Israel does not full fill any prophecy, but is only the consequence of political pacts between Truman, Churchill, the Jews members of the bolshevik regime of Russia and the leaders of the Zionism product of the WWII, as well as the collective psicological trauma that this conflict produced in millions of hebrews.

thanks for your atention,

your friend,

The Angel of lightness

Letter of St Paul to Romans, Chapter 11,25-27 King James version Bible.
11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

[edit on 6/28/2008 by The angel of light]

the demographics of israel show that it is a godless, atheist, antichrist pharasee nation. the true israel is spiritual. do not be decieved. israel was a creation of the rothchilds and masons:

www.rense.com...

the star of david is not a davadic symbol, but a black magic hexagram: the mark of the beast(666): 6 pointed star.

most of the jews don't even know this, except the rabbis at the top.

the talmud commands all christians to be beheaded because they are idolaters (worship christ Gods son, in addition to Yahweh).

revelation tells that in the last days there will be people that will behead christians.

and "whoever killeth you will think he does service to God"

israel is antichrist.

dispen-satan-alism is setting people up to take the mark (jewish hexagram star), to show alligence to God's chosen (rabbis that study the talmud and zohar believe they are the master race, that is destined to conquer the world and make the "goyim" (us), their slaves.

the protocols of the elders of zion is a real illuminate document, not a forgery. (if you don't believe me, read it yourself, and you will realize it predicted every single trend this last century).

do not be decived by the false christ.

do not be stupid cattle and take the mark of the zionist beast.

it is coming quickly!

originally posted by: biggie smalls


And how do you know the leaders of the Western world didn't have the bible in mind? They certainly did.

AND THAT IS WHY THEY CREATED ISRAEL. They wanted to be a part of fulfilling the prophecy, but god did not oversee the creation of this state.

The United Nations created Israel. That is not god.

lol, I know I'm 7 years late, but I just had to comment. While I respect your opinion, partly because Dr. Mcgee shared your opinion (perhaps for different reasons?), I must comment that I disagree based on your premise. The UN may have been a means to an end, but only God appoints worled leaders. Look it up on Proverbs. On two levels that would undermine your stance. Just because we hold elections in the United States, and we use our will to appoint the head of state it does not mean that God did not actually appoint them. Also, giving credit to the UN for doing something that scripture says can only be God's work, e.g., appointing world leaders, as a believer, it just doesn't make sense. Regardless the tools He used to make it happen He did make it happen. It is fulfilled prophecy.

it was supposed to but nothing happened in 48 nor 67, no jesus returning. they moved goalposts, they need to rebuild the temple. but nothing will happen then and goalposts will be moved again.

But Jesus wasn't supposed to come to die anyways he was supposed to build his kingdom on earth, that's why Jews said he was a false prophet and had to be crucified, because he really was just a man. But the one they're waiting for ain't coming.

originally posted by: JohnFisher

originally posted by: biggie smalls


And how do you know the leaders of the Western world didn't have the bible in mind? They certainly did.

AND THAT IS WHY THEY CREATED ISRAEL. They wanted to be a part of fulfilling the prophecy, but god did not oversee the creation of this state.

The United Nations created Israel. That is not god.

lol, I know I'm 7 years late, but I just had to comment. While I respect your opinion, partly because Dr. Mcgee shared your opinion (perhaps for different reasons?), I must comment that I disagree based on your premise. The UN may have been a means to an end, but only God appoints worled leaders. Look it up on Proverbs. On two levels that would undermine your stance. Just because we hold elections in the United States, and we use our will to appoint the head of state it does not mean that God did not actually appoint them. Also, giving credit to the UN for doing something that scripture says can only be God's work, e.g., appointing world leaders, as a believer, it just doesn't make sense. Regardless the tools He used to make it happen He did make it happen. It is fulfilled prophecy.

some others had suggested homelands for jews before in Africa and south America. They didn't want that for obvious reasons, they wanted Israel for obvious reasons . . .

The premise of the OP prophesy rests on the insane idea that a Supreme God needs to manipulate world affairs to fulfill anything - that there is a plan - that is orchestrated to fulfill a prophesy (that would need no manipulation ipso facto, if it were prophecy)...and ridiculously argue the relative merits of having one or both 'sides' subject to unimaginable pain, anguish and torment on a daily basis, because a Superintelligent, Superpowerful, Superknowledgeable creator of all that is seen and unseen (who will, by proxy, have a final battle 'prophecied' by 'someone/s with obvious early-onset dementia [John of Revelation]) cannot, and could not achieve it any other way...consider the utter ridiculousness of this tripe...

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