The Creation of Israel does NOT fulfill Biblical Prophecy

Maybe Israel is the abomination of desolation in which the bible says will come in the last days as a sign of the end. Many christians(of the zionist persuasion) claim Israel is the key sign of the end-times, perhaps they don't know how right they are.

Originally posted by biggie smalls

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Hitler could have won world war II and exterminated all the Jews as well, the UN or Christians didn't set up the outcome of world war two to "fulfill" prophecy either. If the allies had lost the war the prophecy would not have been fulfilled and you might have a point (but you would be posting it in German). There's no way we could have manipulated the outcome of the war. The Bible predicted it thousands of years ago, then it happened in 1948, that is the definition of a fulfilled prophecy.

And how do you know the leaders of the Western world didn't have the bible in mind? They certainly did.

AND THAT IS WHY THEY CREATED ISRAEL. They wanted to be a part of fulfilling the prophecy, but god did not oversee the creation of this state.

The United Nations created Israel. That is not god.

I think your missing the point here Biggie... it doesn't matter how Israel came to be... the fact is that it IS. So however it became a nation it fulfilled Bible prophesy. End of story.

You can blame the UN if you want to and say it is not God. But remember it is God who is the ultimate ruler of all and He planned it this way or at the very least KNEW how it was going to occur. So no matter how Israel came into being it is God's will and a clear fulfillment of Bible prophesy.

Originally posted by biggie smalls

Originally posted by Conspiriology

The Bible predicted it thousands of years ago, then it happened in 1948, that is the definition of a fulfilled prophecy.

Exactly! and I might add the most compelling part of the whole scenario.
If that wasn't prophesy fulfilled then nothing is.

If that isn't GOOD enough to be considered prophesy fulfilled then nothing ever will be and we may as well just close the thread right here.

Did your bible predict the Palestinian genocide perpetrated by the state of Israel? There's nothing in there about their wickedness is their?

How about their constant warmongering towards Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Iran, Jordan, and I'm sure others than I've left out?

Doesn't mention how they'll disrupt peace in the middle east now does it?

Here you are getting off topic by bringing genocide into it. That could be said of anyone in the area, just depends on what side of the fence you are on. From killing busloads of innocent people to using children as human shields, I don't think the Palestinians have much to be commended about either.

I think both sides have been in the wrong on many points, but one thing remains and that is the fact that Isreal will remain a state no matter what you or anyone else thinks about it. I find it a horrible shame that these people can not learn to live with one another. I wish I had an answer, I do not.

But hatred at Israel isn't going to solve anything, nor is stating that it was not prophesy that they became a state. Once again I state the fact that Isreal is a state as predicted in the Bible and nothing you can say will alter that fact. It doesn't matter how they became a state... the fact remains they are.

Originally posted by pavlovsdog
Biggie you have done a great job making your case, but unfortunately this is another unwinnable argument. Those who believe that it is fulfilling a prophesy will continue to hide behind the argument of 'the mysterious ways God works' and 'who's to say He didn't influence the UN'

I predict this thread will go the way of so many threads here. Expect religious **SNIP** gang posts soon

The one thing I have enjoyed about ATS is that we are able to present our thoughts and feelings without threat of persecution for them. However, calling us religious right wing nutter gangs kinda goes against that. If you notice in my posts I have never called Biggie anything bad. Why? I RESPECT HIS OPINION. I respect his right to have one and to express it on this forum.

However I feel you are now calling names and I do not respect that nor do I care for it. As long as we are respectful to one another we should be able to say just about anything.

You said Biggie did a good job making his case. My reply is no, he didn't. He didn't even come close. Like Isreal or not it exists and will continue to do so and did fulfill prophesy. You can say anything you want as to why it didn't (UN did it, or whatever), but the fact remains the Bible said it would happen and it did. Simple.

If saying that God works in mysterious ways makes me some right wing nutter than so be it. I guess I'm in some pretty good company.

[edit on 30-4-2008 by NGC2736]

Oh man bro. ding. ding...fricken ding.!!!! star flag and ....this has needed to be said..i dont know if there are other threads on this topic. but great job on bringing it up.

i was just having this conversation with a Christian friend of mine. He is the one who actually pointed it out that it is NOT fullfilment of prophecy. A couple of reasons for this. And he is a bible thumper to the max. But not the type that shoves it down your throat..know what i mean?

anyway, what he pointed out (actually it was not the U.N. that created Israel, but that is not the point) was that in the Bible it says the "Messiah" will re-unite Israel and bring prosperity back to Jerusalem. Well the Jews do not even believe Jesus is the Messiah, they think the Messiah is still coming for the FIRST time. so how can anyone say that it was biblical prophecy that Israel is back in the control of the Jews, when it states it in the Bible itself that the messiah will bring Jerusalem back to the Jews?

There was a zionist movement even before WWI...and guess where Zion was supposed to be located? In Africa! Not Jerusalem at all. Because these were peaceful, good Jews who understood the implications of stealing land from another people who rightfully lived there.

I dont think there would be any argument if jews came together and conquered it as their hebrew ancestors did thousands of years prior to them being handed the land. Who could say anything? This is how "ownership" of land has changed hands for forever..Including the U.S..

And for the Christians out there who believe it was 'God' who put the Jews back in Israel. Google Cecil E. Rhodes, "white paper", Balfour act and the people who wrote it. It was written by the same people who thought Great Britain should rule the world! This is fact. Not Gods will or a 'miracle' or Jesus. Jesus supposedly lived over 2,000 years ago. So if he was the real Messiah according to the old testament he would have taken Jerusalem out of the hands of the Roman Empire and delivered it back to the jews. Shoot. Jesus said there would be no brick left standing in jerusalem! In fact, even the Monarchists that wanted control over the "holy land" understood the implications of stirring the pot by just giving the jews that land. And the balfour act was not even followed properly! The control was supposed to remain in the hands of the Arabs and Palestinians. I won't go into all the things that happened that changed, but I can tell you it is as devious as it gets when it comes to the exchange of power in Israel. Complete b.s.

And there were already thousands of Jews living there peacefully under the old Ottoman Empire BEFORE WWII and the Balfour act. What was done was control given to the bastard british zionists that had nothing but greed and evil intentions when this whole thing was perpetrated.

There are a ton of things that go into this. But good job bringing it up!

[edit on 30-4-2008 by abelievingskeptic]

[edit on 30-4-2008 by abelievingskeptic]

reply to post by abelievingskeptic


Some interesting thoughts brought up there skeptic. Not quite sure what you meant though by "So if he was the real Messiah according to the old testament he would have taken Jerusalem out of the hands of the Roman Empire and delivered it back to the jews. Shoot. Jesus said there would be no brick left standing in jerusalem!"

Jesus wasn't meant to establish a kingdom on earth, but in heaven. This is the reason the jews had him killed. They thought that he was going to lead a revolution against the Romans and that wasn't so.

Not sure what you were saying about "no brick left standing" either. Jesus predicted that the city would be destroyed and guess what... another prophesey fulfilled there too... but not sure where you were going with that one.

reply to post by Alienmojo


ya, I am writing quick because I am at work..so i kinda got off on some tangesnts without completing the thought.

I am not a Bible scholar. I don't claim any religion either, but I respect the teachings of Jesus. I express my belief by saying I beleive in "Christ exemplified." So when I sorta "quoted" Jesus I was only really referring to my memory of what my friend said Jesus said. And my memory is not very good. So I apologize if I misquoted.

Anyway, to clarify some of the things I was saying. If Israel coming under Jewish rule is fullfilment of prophecy, then it HAS to be done by the Messiah. Who ever the Jewish Messiah is. And it can not be Jesus (according to the Jews), because he did not do it in the literal sense the old testament describes.

Therefor, the prophecy has not been fullfilled. I would have to say ask a Jewish Rabbi scholar. They would probably be better to give a better insight to what the actual prophecy of Jerusalem being delivered back to the Jews really is and how it is supposed to come under their control according to the Bible.

But the way the people who came to be in power in Israel stinks of b.s. from here to china.

I can tell you this..There is symbolism all through the Israeli parliment signifying who put them there.

One name is etched on one brick that makes up the outside of the building...Rothschild.

If you do not know who that is, I suggest reading and understanding as much about that name as possible.

thats weird..it wont let me edit the stupid post!...its a conspiracy!..

anyway to clarify what i said in my first post:



edit to clarify: when i said the u.n. did not create Israel I meant more that they were not the ones that devised the plan as to how the jews were going to migrate there. The plan was created by british Nazis essentially that called for the Holy land to be regained by 'Gods' people....

it was not gods will. sorry

Originally posted by abelievingskeptic
thats weird..it wont let me edit the stupid post!...its a conspiracy!..

anyway to clarify what i said in my first post:



edit to clarify: when i said the u.n. did not create Israel I meant more that they were not the ones that devised the plan as to how the jews were going to migrate there. The plan was created by british Nazis essentially that called for the Holy land to be regained by 'Gods' people....

it was not gods will. sorry

Now you truly have lost me. We are talking about Bibical prophesy which is thousands of years before the nazis ever existed, let alone mythical Bristish Nazis.

Again, being a religious nutso, I must also state that it doesn't matter HOW they became a state, ONLY that they did in fact become a state. If it was in God's plans for the nazis to make them a state or whatever, it doesn't matter because as foretold in the Bible they DID become a State.

I think you guys have to rethink your argument here because you are trying to disprove that the Bible foretold them becoming a state so it doesn't matter how they became it...only that they did. Stating that the nazis made them a state only increases my point that they did become a state as foretold in the Bible.

Now you truly have lost me. We are talking about Bibical prophesy which is thousands of years before the nazis ever existed, let alone mythical Bristish Nazis.

Again, being a religious nutso, I must also state that it doesn't matter HOW they became a state, ONLY that they did in fact become a state. If it was in God's plans for the nazis to make them a state or whatever, it doesn't matter because as foretold in the Bible they DID become a State.

I think you guys have to rethink your argument here because you are trying to disprove that the Bible foretold them becoming a state so it doesn't matter how they became it...only that they did. Stating that the nazis made them a state only increases my point that they did become a state as foretold in the Bible.

first. when I used the term "Nazi"..I was using it to symbolize the mentality of the men that implemented the act of pushing the Jews back into the "promised land." These jewish/christian zionist men or "mythical nazis" as you like to call them, literally tried to conquer the entire world under the British empire. They practically succeeded. There is a lot of info out there on how our Federal Reserve (which resides in washington d.c.) actually answers to the inner city of London where both have their own constitutions and play by their own rules...sounds crazy, but the factual info is out there, and alot of it supports exactly what i just said.

And its really not that difficult to comprehend. Your letting your "religious nutso" get in the way of rational thinking. Like I said in my other post. Research the name Rothschild and the integral role that name (amongst quite a few others) plays in implementing an Israeli state.

I think you guys have to rethink your argument here because you are trying to disprove that the Bible foretold them becoming a state so it doesn't matter how they became it

huh??..

Stating that the nazis made them a state only increases my point that they did become a state as foretold in the Bible.

huh????
when did i say nazis made them a state?

when did i try to disprove the bible said foretelling israel becoming a state? if you havent done any reading on the factuality of how israel became a state and would just like to state what your interpretation of what the bible says, then just say so. that way i don't feel the need to try and have a real discussion.

And as far as fulfilling prophecy just because it happened....well, you might want to rethink that argument. when beliefs are set in concrete and are not allowed to be clarified or attempted to be corroborated is borderline extremism, and it really is not healthy.


[edit on 30-4-2008 by abelievingskeptic]
edit to fix quotations

[edit on 30-4-2008 by abelievingskeptic]

reply to post by biggie smalls


Biggie Smalls I dont know if God had the UN re-form Israel or not.. no one knows for sure. But the upside down flag in your avatar is disrespectful and if you are from the USA you should know better. People die for that flag every day. You should show some respect.

Have A Nice Day!

[edit on 30-4-2008 by justsomeboreddude]

Yeah, that upside down flag is killing women and children.

As far as the whole prophecy thing goes, it did happen but who really cares. It's not exactly like the Old Testaments literalness (in a sense, in that it's mythical stories which some take literally) matches up with the NT's fluffy allegories.

reply to post by Merle8


If I am not mistaken Sadaam's regime killed a whole lot of Iraqi and Iranian women and children, and Osama and the Taliban killed a bunch of American and Afghani women and children. So its not like people werent dying before we were involved.

Sorry for getting the thread off topic. As far as Israel goes, I dont know if it was ordained by God or not and I realize its existence and the movement of the Palenstinians out of their land has a lot to do with the issues at hand. Maybe if we could all go back in time we should have just created a state for them somewhere in the USA or some other part of the world where people could have dealt with it better. Who knows? As they say "it is what it is" so we just have to keep working to find a resolution. I dont like seeing people die anymore than the next guy. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with policy. You can disagree with the leadership and their policies and still show some respect for the nation and freedoms and the lifestyle you have been blessed with.

If I remember correctly, the Afghan government was given an opportunity to hand over Bin Laden before we invaded and they chose not too.

Sadaam invaded Kuwait, lost a war, and signed a peace treaty that he continually violated up until the day we invaded them the second time. What do you think would happen to any other country that lost a war and violated their peace treaty... You think if we would have lost WW2 and kept violating our peace treaty they wouldnt have came back and kicked the crap out of us until we complied?

The biggest problem I see with Israel and the Middle East is that there is no incentive for them to find peace. The West keeps funding Israel because of the conflicts and the Middle East and Russia keeps funding Syria and others because of the conflicts. It's profitable for both sides to keep up the bickering.

[edit on 30-4-2008 by justsomeboreddude]

[edit on 30-4-2008 by justsomeboreddude]

First of all, If I was born in 1948 I wouldn't remember God descending above the UN council giving advise by which name the Jewish State would be recognized by the people.
Secondly nor would any other remember the same thing because simply, God never descended in 1948 in any place on Earth.

What went on in that UN council and numerous other places at around that era was that people decided to create a state and give it a name calling it Israel. The majority of people anywhere in the world agreed probably because they didn't have any other more compelling name for it, or haven't gave much thought to this prior the ruling UN decision of 1948 and thus a state called Israel appeared and everyone or almost everyone was happy afterwards.

This is the whole story and it is a simple one really.

If anyone cares for my opinion, about what is identified in the Holy Bible as Israel, I believe that THE Israel mentioned in the Bible and the modern state of Israel have not many things in common. I would have stated that they probably have nothing in common if it wasn't for the fact that this compelling and powerful name, coming out from the Bible, baring a very heavy significance, given to an earthly state, that her stand throughout the years might or might not be righteous (it depends to whoever you ask), in the human realm has probably set a chain of events, or if you wish, this nations perception of the surrounding world/society, was very orchestrating in creating a drive for an Apocalyptic future for all Mankind...

YET, this is not the Israel mentioned in the Bible because Israel as far as my admittedly limited ability to understand things goes, in the context of the Bible. is about A KIND OF state (behavior,feeling,acceptance,rejection, philosophy of being) and not A state (literally surrounded by borders for people to live in barricading themselves from the rest of humanity).

My main train of thought is that a Loving and Wise God we all believe in, probably many calling Him by different names but this is of no significance, would not let the creation and existence of HIS image of a heavenly STATE, mirrored to earth, to depend on guns, armies and politics for its prosperity because God taught to Mankind that FAITH is the only protection we really should seek and since I see no Son of Man (Jesus) being referred anywhere in the constitution or declaration of this earthly state identified by men by the name state of Israel, I keep asking myself where is FAITH?

I am positive though that some day according to what God has revealed to us, this earthly state shall also be a part of THE Israel. Probably in the future coming era pictured in the New Testament as the era that all woes and hatred will cease, only laughter, forgiveness and good feelings will surround Mankind.

I really pray that earthly names and earthly states are really paving the way for Gods inspired and true universal peace He has promised to us, instead of prohibiting it.

Peace!


[edit on 30-4-2008 by spacebot]

reply to post by spacebot



Great, well thought out post. I like the way that you explained that. You are right in my opinion. If God created modern day Israel you would expect it to be a godly state.

Originally posted by justsomeboreddude
reply to post by spacebot

 

If God created modern day Israel you would expect it to be a godly state.

Actually, that isn't true. There is a single prophetic "week" (seven years) left to be fulfilled in Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks. This is known as "the Great Tribulation". In fact, this "secular Israel" was quite a paradox to Phillip Mauro wrote this (bold emphasis is mine):

And it should be noted in this connection that Zionism, while intensely national in character, does not propose to revive the ancient religion of the Jewish people. This is, to my mind, the strangest feature of Zionism. Every national revival among the Jews in their past history has been a religious revival. That there should ever be a national revival of Judaism which should be absolutely destitute of the religious element, and which should make absolutely no appeal to the religious feelings of the people, would be deemed an a priori impossibility. And yet it is necessary, in order for prophecy to be fulfilled, that a large number of Jews should return to, and should occupy, Palestine in a condition of religious apostasy. This event seems to be now close at hand; and, in spite of all opposition, hatred, spoliation, and persecution, the hated and despised Jews have possessed themselves of such financial resources, and of such commercial influence, in every part of the world, as to prepare all that is needed for the rapid fulfilment of the other steps of the prophetic programme.

From here:
Number of a Man

Quite an interesting read from a book published in 1909?

It seems Phillip Mauro was convinced that Israel would be essentially an "apostate" nation if prophecy WAS to be fulfilled.

reply to post by justsomeboreddude


Thank you, but it is like you are saying that modern day Israel (M.D.Israel for short) is someway ungodly.
Personaly I don't find M.D.Israel being more or less ungodly than probably the majority of states on our globe, I would be unjust. However there is one detail, nobody claimed for themselves the name of "state" (I explained the meaning of "state" in my above post) that is reserved in the Bible. If you base your notion of "ungodly-nes" in the action of using this name, baring the true meaning of state referred in the Bible, yet not philosophically mirrored or either completely ignored by the actions of its bearer, then yes, I would agree.

[edit on 30-4-2008 by spacebot]

Originally posted by justsomeboreddude
reply to post by biggie smalls

 

Biggie Smalls I dont know if God had the UN re-form Israel or not.. no one knows for sure. But the upside down flag in your avatar is disrespectful and if you are from the USA you should know better. People die for that flag every day. You should show some respect.

[edit on 30-4-2008 by justsomeboreddude]

Perhaps you should understand the flying the flag upside down is in fact, condoned by US Code.

THE FLAG CODE Title 36, U.S.C., Chapter 10 As amended by P.L. 344, 94th Congress Approved July 7, 1976 § 176. Respect for flag: No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor. (a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.

As a result of the many traitors and enemies we as a free people have, both foreign and domestic, as a result of the many unconstitutional acts, legislation and atrocities passed and/or committed against US citizens and their life, liberty and property, and as a result of policies that have allowed (and continue to allow) enemies of this nation to enter in large numbers through a porous border policy, I believe the life, liberty and property of US Citizens are in dire danger and distress.


Seems as fitting a time as any to display the flag upside down. I saw fly it in an effort to open peoples eyes to what is going on in this once great nation.




[edit on 30-4-2008 by pavlovsdog]

Biggie, you got an upside down flag with the word distress on it, you got a very vague and blanket statement attack against christians in your signature, you got Allah Akbar on the Avatar panel which everyone knows is a saying that echoes through the minds of people that know thats what muslims say when they chop off an infidels head or the like. BTW it's Allāhu Akbar and it can be used formally or informally meening slightly different things but the way in which it's used is our god is greater. Now your hear seemingly trying to downplay this thing involving Jewish people.

And how can you have As-Salamu Alaykum(peace be upon you) in your banner when your are clearly taunting peoples faith and nation. If I am correct at reading between the lines, I'd say your swimming in a pool of intolerance. As far as this topic I'd say don't muslims like to use the term "It is the will of Allah" whenever something seemingly random or coincidental happens and they want to label it the work of Allah. So by using the same logic they use I'd say god could have did it anyway he wanted without us knowing he did it short of coming out of the clouds and doing it himself. If you have a scenario you think God would of preffered in order to reinstate a Jewish state in the land I would really like to hear it.

reply to post by pavlovsdog


Thanks for the info Pavlovsdog. I did not know that. I guess then if Biggie chose to do that as a "signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property." then I guess it would not be considered disrespectful. If that was his intent, then I offer my apologies and admit that I was wrong.

However if he meant it to be disrespectful or to be joyous at the thought of our demise then, of course, I stand by my original comments. Not that what I think really matters.

I never understand the thinking of the people on here who are Americans but they hate the country because they disagree with Bush. Its just one administration and due to the fact that no one can be president for more than 8 consecutive years, this will change. I always get the feeling that some people want to throw the baby out with the bath water, just because they disagree with what is happening now. Instead of whining about it maybe they should go help get someone else elected. Thats what you do in a democracy. Not that we arent getting a little too socialistic around here, but it is because we elect people with a socialist agenda.. so it's our own darn fault

I dont hold the belief that our country is in dire distress. Though, I do think we are going through a time of many challenges that need to be addressed, but they are not the end of the country. They are just a time of transition in the world economic model.

Hopefully, just like in the past, we come together as a nation and become a little wiser in our actions realizing the mistakes of our past.

[edit on 30-4-2008 by justsomeboreddude]

[edit on 30-4-2008 by justsomeboreddude]