Alternative 9/11 Theories

reply to post by jfj123


Thing is their allowed to by the mods. I had an extended conversation with the mods about this and their doing it is perfectly fine with the t&c. I don't advise you doing it though. They will bust our butts.
Trolling and personal insults by "truthers" a-ok.
Us, we go on a extended ban vacation.

[edit on 1-5-2008 by WraothAscendant]

Originally posted by ClashWho
Pfft. Conspiracies of that size are a fairy tale.

If this is your mentality, then you allow conspiracies of this size. It isn't something for people like you to think about. I present you the possibility, you just laugh at it. Obviously this kind of responsibility is something you wouldn't be able to accept.

Hitler killed millions of people under his citizen's noses very easily. Why? He tells you himself: because of people like you.


Nothing has been proven or disproven, but this is why you will continue to be taken advantage of. You are receptive to continued abuse and do nothing about it.

Securacom and the PA are a bunch of mass murderers, eh? There sure are a lot of mass murderers in your world.

Your reasoning when you say this is probably like you reasoning that everyone would be watching the maintenance men: very naive. A few paper signatures on behalf of Securacom and you already have the men with permits in the building.

Easy as that.

A few years later, buildings destroyed. Another war. History repeating itself. And here's little ol' ClashWho, "This cannot happen!"

You mean, it couldn't happen again?

Because it did and it will continue so long as the gross masses of unaware people such as yourself flourish. Don't stick your tongue out at me, stick it to Hitler. He's your man. You help create him. I hope this gives you the warm fuzzies.

[edit on 1-5-2008 by bsbray11]

Originally posted by ClashWho
Securacom and the PA are a bunch of mass murderers, eh? There sure are a lot of mass murderers in your world.

It's even worse than that. The whole Securacom angle is a joke.

They were hired to install video cameras, and got fired off the job because they weren't able to do the job and replaced by somebody that could. They NEVER had anything to do with managing the building's security. They were fired in June 2000, if memory serves.

Anyone who repeats such a long debunked line must be drinking so much CT koolaid that their pee is grape colored. Even Dylan Avery and the evil twins don't mention this any more because they recognize the claim as being debunked.

Originally posted by Seymour Butz
They were hired to install video cameras, and got fired off the job because they weren't able to do the job and replaced by somebody that could.

That's not what I'm reading:

The security company, formerly named Securacom and now named Stratesec, is in Sterling, Va.. Its CEO, Barry McDaniel, said the company had a ``completion contract" to handle some of the security at the World Trade Center ``up to the day the buildings fell down."

www.commondreams.org...


They could get somebody in there doing "cabling work" or whatever the excuse had to be, could they not? Were they not in the building already, with a good excuse? That's the perfect opportunity! I guess you're going to tell me it's still impossible to rig the buildings because everything I say is wrong and everyone is your friend and no one would ever kill an innocent person and la la la you're not listening to me. I know, I know. But what are you doing here on this forum?

[edit on 1-5-2008 by bsbray11]

Anyrate.

How about we cease this crap and get on with what the thread was originally meant to be, before the "truthers" felt the need to bury it in the BS that any thread that does not agree with their view ends up, at their prompting and vitriol. I for one intend to ignore them from here on in.

So in that vein. I found somethings that refer to poor construction being one of the reasons that the Towers collapsed.

Why the World Trade Center Buildings Collapsed

About the problems with Air Force response to 9/11

War games

Main article: United States military and Department of Defense ongoing and scheduled operations and exercises for September 11, 2001

There were a number of war games and military exercises taking place during the attacks, including Northern Vigilance, a NORAD operation which involved deploying fighter aircraft to locations in Alaska and northern Canada to respond to a war game being conducted by Russia; Global Guardian, an annual command-level exercise organized by United States Strategic Command in cooperation with Space Command and NORAD; and Vigilant Guardian, a semiannual NORAD Command Post Exercise (CPX) (meaning it is conducted in offices and with computers, but without actual planes in the air) involving all NORAD command levels in which one scenario being run on September 11 was a simulated hijacking. Additionally, a National Reconnaissance Office drill was being conducted on September 11 in which the event a small aircraft crashing into one of the towers of the agency's headquarters, was to be simulated, and the Office of Emergency Management were preparing for Operation Tripod, a bioterrorism exercise due to take place on September 12.

Source: U.S. military response during the September 11, 2001 attacks @ wikipedia

And the guy that mentioned (I think it was Pilgrum) provide the link for the hacker that found the unprotected back door around that time in the Pentagon network?

Originally posted by bsbray11

That's not what I'm reading:

The security company, formerly named Securacom and now named Stratesec, is in Sterling, Va.. Its CEO, Barry McDaniel, said the company had a ``completion contract" to handle some of the security at the World Trade Center ``up to the day the buildings fell down."

They were hired to install cameras. When it became apparent that they weren't able to do the job, they were fired. A new company came in to finish the job, but Securacom was kept on to assist the NEW company finish the job, since they knew what had been done previously and could help expedite the completion of the project. This is common practice when a large job changes hands mid-stream. People are kept on to consult in areas where the new people aren't sure about.

And of course, they weren't in charge of the total building security, as I noted. Nor were they responsible for installing new cables from that point on. Nor would any of S-com's employees be wandering around the building by themselves at this point. They would be consulting with the new company. There isn't any evidence either that they even had personnel on site all the time.

Originally posted by RomanMaroni
reply to post by jfj123

 

jfj, it's odd that you chose to respond to someone you feel is ridiculous,

It amused me

when I made a post that refuted your belief in the accurate time line.

I didn't read it sorry. I should have said more or less accurate however and I know I didn't so I do apologize for that. I'll also try and go back and read your post. Sorry I missed it.

Seems a waste of time to try and discuss something with someone who you feel is ridiculous.

I wasn't "discussing anything, just making statements about his silly comments.

You accuse "truthers" of picking clean any rational conversation, and then you proceed in an irrational conversation.

Sometimes irrational people are both fun and funny

I will ask you my question again. If you believe the official time line is correct, why do you feel Norman Mineta made up up such a specific and elaborate lie?

I corrected myself above and like I said, I missed your post so I'll go back later and read it. I also assume you included evidence and source references with your post ?

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
reply to post by jfj123

 

Thing is their allowed to by the mods. I had an extended conversation with the mods about this and their doing it is perfectly fine with the t&c. I don't advise you doing it though. They will bust our butts.
Trolling and personal insults by "truthers" a-ok.
Us, we go on a extended ban vacation.

[edit on 1-5-2008 by WraothAscendant]

If I get banned for defending myself, so be it.

Originally posted by Seymour Butz
They were hired to install cameras.

Should they have been hired to install explosive devices? Is that what they would've done, Seymour?

I might as well argue with a rock about this. I don't think you really understand what a conspiracy is. I don't think you understand how the criminal mind works. Everything apparently has to be legal and straightforward or else it didn't happen and doesn't exist for you. Not so, my friend. Crime happens all around you on a daily basis whether you realize it or not.

When it became apparent that they weren't able to do the job, they were fired.

You still haven't provided a source for this.

Nor were they responsible for installing new cables from that point on.

You don't know what happened in those buildings. All the records of permits and etc. (that should be public domain) are missing from a large span of years. Just like the construction documents. Ask Griff about it. He's a civil engineer by trade and actually knows a little about those kinds of things.

[edit on 1-5-2008 by bsbray11]

Originally posted by bsbray11
I might as well argue with a rock about this. I don't think you really understand what a conspiracy is. I don't think you understand how the criminal mind works. Everything apparently has to be legal and straightforward or else it didn't happen and doesn't exist for you. Not so, my friend. Crime happens all around you on a daily basis whether you realize it or not.

Yes, I understand what a conspriacy is. yes I'm aware there is crime all around us.

However, you seem to not know the difference between musings about what could have happened, and what can be shown with evidence.

Musings and what ifs is all CTerz have. That's why the truth movement is dying. They have nothing that will convince the rational citizens that thankfully are in the majority in our country.

All that is left are the extremists in the movement.

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
And the guy that mentioned (I think it was Pilgrum) provide the link for the hacker that found the unprotected back door around that time in the Pentagon network?

It wasn't me but I think the british hacker Gary McKinnon would be the best known Pentagon hacker. There's indications that they were getting up 100 hack attacks per day from the late 90's on from all over the place with China, Russia and Israel ranking highly as sources.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by ClashWho
Pfft. Conspiracies of that size are a fairy tale.

If this is your mentality, then you allow conspiracies of this size. It isn't something for people like you to think about. I present you the possibility, you just laugh at it.

Yeah, I do. It's hilarious. You think hundreds if not thousands of people have conspired to murder their fellow citizens. What baloney. Show me a credible confession from one of these people. With so many people "in on it," someone's bound to come forward eventually, right? If not, maybe there's no one in on it. Ya think?

reply to post by Pilgrum


Actually it was a guy with a strange spelled out void for a name.

reply to post by ClashWho


Clash, I think bsbray was correct when he said you don't understand a conspiracy. Have you actually thought about the number of people who would be involved? Using a generalization of hundreds or thousands indicates you have not. Be more specific. You are an official story believer, so you know it only takes 21 people to pull this off (19 hijackers, Khalid Sheik Mohammad, and Osama Bin Laden). You also believe it only takes 2 planes to destroy 3 buildings. So, how many explosive would be needed? According to the official story, it takes 0 just the planes. So, in following that line of thought, couldn't a minimal amount of explosives be used because the buildings were going to fall anyway. If explosive were used, couldn't they have just concentrated on 1 or 2 cores to ensure the building would fall and the way they fall? After all, they were going to collapse anyway. Personally, I don't get into the CD theory, but I just thought I would point out your flawed logic on this topic.

I just don't understand the thought: it either takes 0 explosives or tons of explosives. it either takes 21 conspirators or it takes thousands. Please help me to understand.

Originally posted by ClashWho
Yeah, I do. It's hilarious. You think hundreds if not thousands of people have conspired to murder their fellow citizens.

No, I don't.

And once again, the Nazis did exactly what I'm talking about to Germany in the 1930's and 40's. It is not impossible to fool a lot of people. Especially stupid Americans! (I am American and frankly YES most people here are flat out dumb to everything outside their little personal worlds).

And just to repeat, I don't think hundreds or thousands were "in on it." Four or five people could have understood everything about what happened that day, if that. Those would be the ultimate planners, financiers, military connections, etc. Everything "below" them becomes more petty jobs, that don't require full working knowledge, until you get to the bottom, where the most petty jobs are done by people who don't even realize what they are doing. Think of it like a pyramid: narrow at the top, wide at the bottom. And the only real, insider understanding of the full operation is at the very top.

With so many people "in on it," someone's bound to come forward eventually, right?

Nope. You sure are full of bad logic for someone who is supposedly so obsessed with "facts."

I went to sleep last night but apparently I didn't really, because I have no real evidence of it and can't prove it to you. I'm not saying nothing should be proven. I'm just saying every single freaking detail does not have to be filled in by me, for me to still be right, and you wrong. Speaking of which, where is the damned evidence this thread is about? For Christ's sake I've posted more for your own case than anyone else here.

Let’s see, CTers still have no evidence, misquote & bait posters on this thread (we are all trolls or dis info agents), read far too much into what facts they do know (different teams train constantly in NY… LA… Chicago too, so what?) and yet can only use fear mongering and compare believers in the official story to Hitler? Thankfully I read this as a last ditch effort because I guess the CTers have hit the bottom of the barrel. You should not only be ashamed… but normal, logical people should be ashamed FOR you. The comparison is pathetic.

Has anyone ever heard of the game “3 degrees of Kevin Bacon” or something close to that? Apparently, you can tie Kevin Bacon to almost any other actor in Hollywood within 3 movies that they were in. It is a modern take on the “Most people are within 3 hand shakes of the President of the United States”. The idea of Securacom is about that valid.

I come to this site and others to inform myself. Honestly, years ago, there were many more unanswered questions. After 7 years something should have come up to point towards something. Not only has hardly anything been worth pursuing, but not enough exists to justify a complaint at a service desk, let alone a legal panel. I think that the only thing keeping any conspiracy alive is the conspiracy itself. The questions have been answered time & time again. Every few months another outlandish theory (I think “theory” is too good of a word for most) is floated, becomes popular among the internet crowd, then dies under its own weight of silliness. It is one thing to sit around with your buddies drinking and dream up these ideas, but believing them shows little understanding of the facts. Why should we bother posting the facts, which haven’t changed since 9/11, when a CTers can just discard them with the weekly idea? There are 100s, if not 1000s of theories, yet the facts still only support something damn close to the Official Story. Why is that?

Fertile imaginations may be enough to get you out of High school, but not a PhD. I’ll still be waiting on some evidence, but how long should a rational person be expected to wait?

Originally posted by RomanMaroni
Clash, I think bsbray was correct when he said you don't understand a conspiracy. Have you actually thought about the number of people who would be involved? Using a generalization of hundreds or thousands indicates you have not. Be more specific.

Conspiracy theorists have accused the FBI, the CIA, the military, the Bush administration, the Clinton administration, air traffic controllers, mere citizens, 911 dispatchers, county coroners, quality-assurance managers, firemen, WTC security personnel, and on and on and on.

Originally posted by RomanMaroni
I just don't understand the thought: it either takes 0 explosives or tons of explosives.

Wrong. Either it takes tons of explosives or it takes a fire fueled by hundreds of gallons of jet fuel after an aircraft collision blasts fireproofing off of support beams. Nice straw man argument, though.

Originally posted by RomanMaroni
it either takes 21 conspirators or it takes thousands.

Correct. Either the hijackers did it, or a cast of hundreds or even thousands.

Originally posted by bsbray11
And just to repeat, I don't think hundreds or thousands were "in on it." Four or five people could have understood everything about what happened that day, if that. Those would be the ultimate planners, financiers, military connections, etc. Everything "below" them becomes more petty jobs, that don't require full working knowledge, until you get to the bottom, where the most petty jobs are done by people who don't even realize what they are doing.

Yeah, right, that's utterly absurd. Some hired hands wired the WTC towers with explosives without realizing what they were doing, eh? Wiring a building with explosives is a precision process requiring extensive expertise. If they did it, they knew exactly what they were doing.

How about all the human remains of the passengers found at the Pentagon and Pennsylvania crash sites? If they weren't from Flights 77 and 93, how did it all get there? You think four or five people could pull that off? How did the remains get identified if its really a cover-up? How many people would that take?

How about the 757 parts found at the Pentagon? I wonder how many people it would take to scatter 757 plane parts all over. You think those people don't know the implications of what they're doing?

Maybe you think Flight 93 was shot down by a fighter jet. You know how many people would have to know about that? The pilot would know. The weapons officer at the base it was launched from would know. Numerous ground control personnel would know. Almost the entire officer chain of command for that base would know. The numerous enlisted personnel responsible for documenting and maintaining every rocket and missile before take-off and after landing would know. Everyone who saw the plane land with one less missile than it took off with would know.

Your conspiracies require hundreds of people that would know more than enough to blow the whistle. So why haven't they? Because they don't exist. Hijackers flew airplanes into buildings. That's what happened. That's it.

[edit on 2-5-2008 by ClashWho]

Originally posted by RomanMaroni
reply to post by ClashWho

 

Clash, I think bsbray was correct when he said you don't understand a conspiracy. Have you actually thought about the number of people who would be involved? Using a generalization of hundreds or thousands indicates you have not. Be more specific. You are an official story believer, so you know it only takes 21 people to pull this off (19 hijackers, Khalid Sheik Mohammad, and Osama Bin Laden).

I'm sorry but this shows you don't understand the conspiracy.
The Al Queda leaders were involved, agents were involved, technical personnel were involved, logistics persons were involved, financial people were involved which allowed the 19 hijackers to pull off 9/11.

So it wasn't just 21 guys. There's a lot more to it then that.

Clash maybe you should focus on theories that are a little more believable. Instead of concentrating on theories you feel are absurd, and then categorizing everyone under those theories. I don't get into the controlled demolition, missile at the pentagon, or Flight 93 was shot down. People have been discussing these theories for 6 years, and they are still in the place as they were when they started. Nothing can be proven.

What I choose to focus on is the 9/11 Commission. How is was formed, the people chosen to be on it, the reluctance to assign blame, the many inconsistencies in the time line, the refusal of certain people to testify, the fact the The White House set the rules for how they would testify, and the refusal to address question ask by the victims families. These problems led to me ask, why? The inconsistencies go further than just covering up incompetence.

The hijackers were allowed into this country with little investigation into who they were, by using the Express Visa Program being offered to the Saudi's. They lived among us despite some being on watch lists. They were identified by FBI agents and Able Danger, but all investigations into them was halted by higher ups. They were taking flight training which led to even more alerts being sent to Intelligence offices. Again, nothing was done. This leads me to believe they were being helped by people within these agencies. They were able to board planes with weapons, despite being on watch lists. They were able to take over planes with what seems to be very little resistance. They knew exactly how to fool the radar system and the US Military and were able to manually fly directly to their destinations.

They received no resistance entering the country, no resistance living openly in our country, no resistance in training for their mission, no resistance boarding planes, no resistance hijacking planes, and no resistance executing their mission. This leads me to believe there was a conspiracy.