The "mystery" of the trinity

Originally posted by lightseeker

But, getting back to the Athenasian Creed; I believe it says exactly what I believe, as does the Nicean Creed, but in more depth and distiction. It is what I beleve every person who knows Christ believes.

Athenasian Creed

too bad the creed isnt scriptually supported

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by lightseeker

But, getting back to the Athenasian Creed; I believe it says exactly what I believe, as does the Nicean Creed, but in more depth and distinction. It is what I believe every person who knows Christ believes.

Athenasian Creed

too bad the creed isnt scriptually supported

It is only your interpretation of scripture that makes it so; for every source you provide who says it is not scripturally accurate, I can provide another that says it is. "But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation." [2 Peter 1:19,20 NAS]. Further we are admonished in scripture about correctly interpreting God's word.
[ 2Timothy 2:15.]

Since the Bible teaches that God is not the author of confusion [1 Cor. 14:33], how can the many disagreements today between Christians and the proliferation of the cults be explained since all, or nearly all, claim to use the Bible as the basis of their doctrines? Nearly all false doctrines taught today by Christians and cultists alike can be traced to the distortion of the meaning of Biblical words. These eight rules are prayerfully offered in the hope that they may help many come to the truth of what God says in His Word.
The Eight Rules Of Bible Interpretation

And there is another consideration as well"

Many skeptics have complained that the Bible can't tell us anything of any real value because every person interprets it differently. While this is surely an overstatement - there is a great deal contained in the Bible that many Bible-believing Christians do in fact agree on - the reason why there are so many different interpretations is because interpreters don't follow any sensible or consistent method. This naturally leads to inaccurate, inconsistent, illogical and naive interpretations.

With so many different interpretations available, how is anyone supposed to know which is the correct one? By examining the nature of the Bible, the events it records and how it was written, it is possible to come up with a method of interpretation that is sensible and understandable. Biblical Hermeneutics

I do not for a moment doubt your total sincerity in your comments and statements regarding this subject; however, since almost every single Christian apologist of the last 20 centuries, that have followed strict adherence to the above rules, favored an interpretation of scripture that includes a triune Godhead and the divinity of Jesus Christ, I think I will trust their judgment and interpretation over yours.


[edit on 5/20/2008 by lightseeker]

Originally posted by lightseeker
since almost every single Christian apologist of the last 20 centuries, that have followed strict adherence to the above rules, favored an interpretation of scripture that includes a triune Godhead and the divinity of Jesus Christ, I think I will trust their judgment and interpretation over yours.

go ahead, im not telling you not too. you can believe whatever or whoever you want.

in this case the scriptures speak for themselves. in one breath you say god isw not a god of confusion, in the next you say you believe in the mystery of the trinity

it doesnt take a scholar to see that the trinity is a doctrine that conflicts with the bible in most areas. not alittle, most.

here, ill quote from the sister thread

- jesus praying to God (multiple times)
- god talking to jesus on three different occasions
- jesus saying that god is greater than him
- jesus being call the ¨firstborn¨of all creation
- God having no beginning (inconflict with the point above if they are the same person)
- jesus talking about doing god´s will, not his own
- jesus saying that god sent him
- jesus saying that he didnt not send himself in the same verse
- jesus being called god´s son
- the god of the OT (same as the god of the NT) being only ¨one¨
- jesus being tempted (do you honestly believe God can be tempted?)
- jesus´response to being tempted (to worship himself?)
- satan tempting jesus (why would satan even try)
- the death of jesus (can god die?)
- the resurrection of jesus (if god was dead, how did he resurrect himself?)
- jesus correcting the jews of thinking that he called himself god (why would he correct them if it was true?)
- jesus is depicted in revelation as a lamb before god.
- bible says that no man has seen god ecept the son. (yet men have seen jesus)
- the hebrew temple depicts god in the most holy, while jesus is depicted as the high priest (separate entities)
- jesus offering his blood as a sacrifice for mankinds sins (to god)

now contrast this with the trinity ¨proof¨ scriptures.

john 1:1 simple mistranslation
1 john 5:7 added sometime around the 4th century
john 10:30 where jesus himself clarifies a few verses later.

so let me put it this way. the trinity doctrine only has 3 scriptures that ¨support¨ it.

1 is a fake, and 2 are (if interpreted the way you say) only talk about duality which is one short of a trinity.

duality cannot exist because it conflicts with everything jesus was, did and said.

of the 2 that ¨support¨ duality, one is a simple translation error, (simple, not complex) and the other jesus himself refutes in plain language.

you can throw in interpretation as much as you want but the simple fact is that the bible contradicts a belief in the trinity. if you choose to continue to believe it (for whatever reason) thats your business

just to add.

doesnt the the trinity say that god and jesus are equal?

john 14:[28] Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

do you really need a scholar to interpret something as clear as this?

Hi,
You may have already covered this, and I just missed it so stick with me. Why is Jesus given praise from the angels in heavem which should only be given to God? Secondly, why does Thomas specifically call Jesus God and worship him? If Jesus is not God, but is perfect, then why doesn't Jesus rebuke him for this?

Thanks

Here what I believe I believe Jesus is the perfect manifestion Of God. But that Does'nt make Jesus God

Bread of life John chapter 6 v 33 I think.

For I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him whom has sent me KJV.

Jesus says that he does not his will but the will of God. And that God sent him.

Jesus prays. He's not talking to himself.

Jesus calls God his own God. On the cross Jesus says Father father why have you forsaken me.

Jesus will God's presents is not with him.

Jesus says that God is greater than him. Jesus might as well be God, but that does'nt make him God. The bible teaches us that Jesus has all authority in heaven and Earth. And that Jesus has all of God in him. But that Does'nt mean Jesus is God. Jesus is a creaton of God. who was sent by God. Jesus is the SON OF GOD. TRINITY IS WRONG AND PRAY THAT THE TRUTH BE SHOWN TO YOU.

Why does Jesus allow Thomas to call him "My Lord and my God" in John 20:28, if he is not God? Either he is wrong not to tell Thomas that he isn't God or else Thomas is right and Jesus is God. I am sure that you have a simple explanation for this simple text.

Thanks

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


jesus is called a god in john 1:1

so many people think that the title of god is exclusive to GOD (Jehovah) but it isnt. satan, humans, even wood statues are called god.

the word "god" in the bible seems to have the context of someone mighty, powerful, a ruler, or even if they arent (like wooden statues) and they are just thought to be powerful.

jesus is god's son. he gets resurrected into an immortal form. he is certainly powerful. calling him "my god" is little different than calling him "my king" (which he is too).

one thing jesus is NEVER called is "almighty god". this is because he is not an almighty god. he cant do everything. he even admits that his father is greater than him.

I think the answer to the question would be that He was'nt calling jesus God, but saying that his lord was found and God was found.

Why would Jesus say that God is greater than him now answer that,
and answer this why would jesus say that he didnt come in his own will but god's will, and that God sent Jesus answer that now.

When scripture is harmonized, it gives a full picture of Who God is and who Jesus Christ is.

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” Genesis 1:1
So, God is the Creator.

“In the beginning was the “logos” …” John 1:1

The “logos” (word) is the verbal aspect of God that reflects His wisdom, plan, and reason … the instrument that He used to create:

“He SPOKE, and it was.” Psalm 33:9

“By the word of the LORD were the heavens made: and all the host of them by the BREATH OF HIS MOUTH.” Psalm 33:6

Creation was by God’s spoken word (logos). He can do that!

GOD THE FATHER, ALONE, possesses inherent eternality. All the rest of creation have an origin, including Jesus Christ. I Timothy 6:14-16 is irrefutable:

“ … until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which in his times, he shall show (demonstrate) Who is the blessed and ONLY POTENTATE (power), the King of kings, and LORD of lords; Who ONLY hath immortality (no beginning / no end), dwelling in the light which NO MAN CAN APPROACH unto; whom NO MAN HATH SEEN, NOR CAN SEE: to Whom be honor and power everlasting.” I Timothy 6:14-16

So ONLY GOD THE FATHER possesses the quality of “eternality”. Jesus was GIVEN this quality after GOD raised him to life and made him immortal as the “firstborn from the dead”. Scripture teaches that Jesus Christ really did die in every sense of the meaning of death, otherwise his death, burial, and resurrection is some sort of pantomime, such as many false belief systems (“oneness” and “trinity”) are forced to assume, whether they openly acknowledge it or not.

WHAT ELSE DOES THE BIBLE SAY?

“For there is ONE GOD … AND … there is ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.” I Timothy 2:5-6

“Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE.” Galatians 3:20

“For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist … AND …. one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” I Corithians 8:5-6

Who are we to worship?

"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship THE FATHER in spirit and in truth: for THE FATHER seeketh such to worship Him." –John 4:23








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So who is Jesus Christ?

The one we now know as Jesus Christ had former glory with the Father serving as an Angel of the LORD. He was a spokesperson for GOD in many instances prior to his becoming mortal flesh and was the messenger of the Covenant:

“…all our fathers … passed through the sea … and drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.” I Corinthians 10:1-4

“Behold, I will send my messenger (John the Baptist), and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord (adoni), whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD (Adonai) of hosts.” Malachi 3:1

This messenger, the one we now know as Jesus Christ, was very active in the events surrounding Israel prior to his becoming mortal flesh. He had already willingly volunteered to die for mankind from before the foundations of the world and when the time came, he emptied himself of this “former glory” and “became obedient unto death”.

"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot: WHO WAS VERILY FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by Him do believe in God, that raised Him up from the dead, and gave Him Glory; that your Faith and Hope might be in God." I Peter 1:19-21

" ... the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world" Revelation 13:8

"Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man he humbled himself and became obedient to death, even death on a cross!" Philippians 2:6-8

In fact, Hebrews 1:9 points out that he was anointed “ABOVE HIS FELLOWS” because he loved righteousness and hated iniquity. So, this servant of GOD was a “stand out”. He WILLINGLY offered up his own life for all of mankind. He could not have died had he been already immortal. He was GIVEN immortality by GOD at his resurrection from the DEAD. Thus, he is called the “first born from the dead” in Colossians 1, which establishes him as preeminent in all things.

It is by (or because of) Jesus Christ that a new creation is possible. Jesus Christ is the REASON that the worlds could be created because he is the catalyst for man’s permanent existence with GOD … all those who have faith and obey God, that is.


_______________________



What about Thomas?

Did he see GOD? What does the Bible REALLY say?

“There shall no man see Me, and live.” Exodus 33:20

“No man hath seen God at any time…” John 1:18

“… (of) the Father … ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. John 5:37

"No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father." John 6:46

“ … Whom no man hath seen nor can see….” 1 Timothy 6:16

“No man hath seen God at any time.” 1 John 4:12

Did Thomas think that he was standing in the presence of the Most High GOD Whom no man has ever seen or heard? Emphatically, NO, as per scripture.

Thomas was amazed that he was beholding Jesus Christ, his master and teacher, in his new resurrected body after knowing that he had been dead in the grave for three days. The word “lord” (kurios) and the word “god” (theos) DO NOT necessarily mean THE LORD or THE GOD.

Satan is the god of this world. Does that make him THE GOD? Neither does Thomas calling Jesus “lord” and “god” make Jesus THE GOD.





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great post david, thank you.

only one minor detail, immortality doesnt mean you dont have a beginning, it just means that you cant die. because jesus did have a beginning as he was the firstborn of all creation.

it think its rather ironic really. satan rebelled probably thinking that he could live independent of god, with people worshiping him. then god not only allows the death of his son to redeem mankind, but then gave jesus the ability to exist independently of him. i mean jesus doesnt need god for anything, not even spiritual food.

i can see that being insulting to satan.

miriam, your last post is incoherent and scripturally baseless ... no offense intended.

Jesus Christ was "given" the quality of immortality (never dying again / living forever) by God. This is made clear in Acts 13:33-35:

"GOD hath fulfilled ... in that He hath raised up Jesus again ... And as concerning that He raised him up from the dead, NOW NO MORE to return to corruption ...".

God ONLY has the inherent quality of eternality, in that He has no beginning. All others of his creation have an origin, a beginning, even Jesus the Christ.

I am not sure what point you were trying to make. Your response was non sequitur to my post.

And where in the world do you get that Jesus Christ "doesn't need GOD (capital "G" if you don't mind) for anything"? There is ZERO scripture to support such a wild and outlandishly unbiblical claim.

NO ONE or NO THING can exist outside of GOD, Who ALONE is the Source of all life, (I Timothy 6:15-16). Jesus Christ is always subject to the Father:

"And when all things shall be subdued unto HIM (GOD), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto HIM that put all things under him, that GOD may be all in all." I Corinthians 15:2

Jesus needs GOD for everything. It is GOD who gives Jesus Christ all the power that he has. Jesus is always subject to GOD, as is everyone.




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reply to post by David365


your correct, it is not biblical and purely speculative.

this is my reason for the observation.

- all god's creation was mortal (can die)

humans not only require food, but also air and spiritual food to survive. angels are mortal too, it is possible they require some sort of connection to god. there isnt any scripture to confirm this but there is a scripture about demons being thrown into tarterus (or darkness separated from god).

- angels as well as humans were granted free will.

it is free will with consequence because if we go against god, we are "cut off" and we eventually die. the exact mechanism for this is purely speculative. maybe its lack of spiritual nourishment from god? or maybe something in our dna changes? how is not important, the fact is independance from god = old age and death.

- jesus was made the first immortal (cant die)

there is a stark difference between everlasting life, and immortality. immortality is the inability to die. even god would not kill you. with immortality jesus doesnt need anything from god to survive. jesus chooses to follow god in the truest sense of the word. it is free will in the absolute sense.

just speculation. im not attached to the theory or anything, just kinda popped into my head. i could and probably am completely wrong.

the reason i mentioned it is because you mentioned immortality and the idea just came.

Miriam, everlasting life and immortality are the same quality. Everlasting life is immortality and immortality is everlasting life. There is no distinction between the two given in scripture.

Originally posted by David365

Miriam, everlasting life and immortality are the same quality. Everlasting life is immortality and immortality is everlasting life. There is no distinction between the two given in scripture.

there is nothing to say they are the same either.

adam was perfect, and he was going to live forever. but he wasnt immortal

satan was perfect, he was going to live forever, but he wasnt immortal.

it should be noted that immortality is phrase only used when talking about jesus, or though who are resurrected with a heavenly hope.

those who are resurrected to earth are never refered to as immortal but instead as having everlasting life

1 tim 1:[17] Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

jesus

1 corinthians 15:[1] Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
[2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
[3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

later, he says to these "first"

[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

he is talking specifically to people who are going to heaven to rule with jesus.

doesnt refer to those who will be on earth as being immortal. instead they will live forever like adam and eve did.

again i could be wrong.

miriam0566

- jesus praying to God (multiple times)
- god talking to jesus on three different occasions
- jesus saying that god is greater than him
- jesus being call the ¨firstborn¨of all creation
- God having no beginning (inconflict with the point above if they are the same person)
- jesus talking about doing god´s will, not his own
- jesus saying that god sent him
- jesus saying that he didnt not send himself in the same verse
- jesus being called god´s son
- the god of the OT (same as the god of the NT) being only ¨one¨
- jesus being tempted (do you honestly believe God can be tempted?)
- jesus´response to being tempted (to worship himself?)
- satan tempting jesus (why would satan even try)
- the death of jesus (can god die?)
- the resurrection of jesus (if god was dead, how did he resurrect himself?)
- jesus correcting the jews of thinking that he called himself god (why would he correct them if it was true?)
- jesus is depicted in revelation as a lamb before god.
- bible says that no man has seen god ecept the son. (yet men have seen jesus)
- the hebrew temple depicts god in the most holy, while jesus is depicted as the high priest (separate entities)
- jesus offering his blood as a sacrifice for mankinds sins (to god)

miriam can you give me the scriptures to where this are at all of them please. I know they're in the bible but can you give me a list to where all of them are??

reply to post by slymattb


tonight or tommarrow, i still have to go food shopping and make something to eat so im not sure.

Let me guess you forgot. Hey can anyone list these things in the bible

Originally posted by slymattb
Let me guess you forgot. Hey can anyone list these things in the bible

oh crap i did. im so sorry. ill try to do it now.

:bnghd: