The "mystery" of the trinity

HISTORY OF THE TRINITY

how was the christian trinity formed?

not by the council of nicaea. the counsil stated that jesus was of the same substance as god, but holy spirit wasnt mentioned as the third person of a trinity

www.islamtomorrow.com...

but it is commonly accepted that the council were the ones that started the idea that jesus and GOD are one.

there is alot of dispute about wether the counsil was pushed into making that descision or not, but either way, that is where it started.

it wasnt until the Athanasian Creed was written that the trinity doctrine took the form it more or less does today.

www.ccel.org...

it was around the 5th century that this creed was written.

www.newadvent.org...

Most modern scholars agree in admitting the strength of these reasons, and hence this view is the one generally received today. Whether the Creed can be ascribed to St. Athanasius or not, and most probably it cannot, it undoubtedly owes it existence to Athanasian influences, for the expressions and doctrinal colouring exhibit too marked a correspondence, in subject-matter and in phraseology, with the literature of the latter half of the fourth century and especially with the writings of the saint, to be merely accidental. These internal evidences seem to justify the conclusion that it grew out of several provincial synods, chiefly that of Alexandria, held about the year 361, and presided over by St. Athanasius. It should be said, however, that these arguments have failed to shake the conviction of some Catholic authors, who refuse to give it an earlier origin than the fifth century.

is there proof that the trinity existed before?

yes. in other beliefs.

babylon, greece and rome all had trinity teachings. hindus also have a trinity of siva, brahma, and vishnu.

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i would like you to note that the church has been notorious for adapting pagan traditions.

such examples include - easter, christmas, halloween (rituals). immortal soul, hellfire, icons (doctrine).

church has claimed that this is a good thing, that it takes whats bad and makes it good. im not going to get into that discussion here, however i wanted to make that point that for the church to adapt a pagan teaching is not unheard of.

also that the fact that the trinity doesnt make an appearance until at least 4 centuries after christ's death is significant. especially since other well known pagan doctrines made their appearance around the same time.

but one could say that even though the trinity wasn't official doctrine, that the early christians believed it because it can be found in the bible. so lets examine the scriptures.

THE BIBLE

the catholic encyclopedia says about the trinity -

"The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another."

so if it is a central doctrine, then its logical to conclude that god would make the teaching very clear no? after all, the bible is god revealing himself to man right?

but the thing is, the word trinity is not found in the bible. not once. the word existed , but for some reason god decided not to put it in. (aparently he didnt have his thesaurus on hand)

in fact, we will see as we examine scripture that even the concept is fuzzy. it even needed to be clarified by creeds made centuries later.

this should raise a red flag for us, because if it is a central doctrine, it should be clear.

scriptures that prove a trinity

2 corinthians 13:13 - The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the charity of God, and the communication of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

1 corinthians 12:4-6 - Now there are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit. And there are diversities of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all in all.

matthew 28:19 - Going therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

these scripture are brought up in new catholic encyclopedia as proof texts. problem is, they dont prove anything. they simply mention the three. nothing in there about being one, or equal.

matthew 3:16 also puts God,the Holy Ghost and Jesus in the same place. it says -
"And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him:"

again, no mention that they are one. it mentions them separatly. (also note that the spirit descending on him at his baptism. so jesus wasnt anointed by spirit until this point. if he was part of a trinity, wouldnt he ALWAYS be one with the spirit?)

1 john 5:7,8 - And there are Three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that give testimony on earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are one.

FINALLY! a scripture that is easy to understand! direct, simple and it says they are one. we have the trinity!

problem is, the scripture is a fake.

greek interlinear - "Because three are the (ones) bearing witness, the spirit and the water and the blood, and three into the one (thing) are.

doesnt even mention god, or the son. it doesnt say in heaven either. the king james version added that other bit in around the 15th century. there are theologians that would have killed to have a scripture like mentioned in king james, but i wasnt till later that we find it. most modern translations omit the added parts.

for a further discussion see www.answering-christianity.com...

okay, so nowhere in the bible does it say that god, the holy ghost and jesus are the same person.

it doesnt even allude to it. the closest we have gotten to the trinity so far is the three being mentioned in the same scripture. not really proof. for a central doctrine, this seems to be taking a back burner really quick.

so.... jesus and God are one right?

john 10: 30 - I and the Father are one.

AHA!!! solid proof in the trini... duality thing... ok, so we are grasping at straws here. we'll take this and run with it. it'll be easy to just include the holy spirit since they are all mentioned together in the bible a few times.

but there is a problem. jesus explains himself in john 17:21,22 - (praying to god ironically, which wouldnt really be necessary if he and God were the same person if you think about it) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

so Jesus is saying they (the congregation and apostles) may be one. he's talking about being united. undivided. thing is, jesus is saying this himself! if the scripture in john 10 was to mean that they are the same person, then jesus is now contradicting himself. which if jesus is God, then we know thats impossible.

still not convinced? lets break out the greek interlinear.

egO (I) kai (AND) ho (THE) patEr (FATHER) hen (ONE(thing)) eimi (ARE)

"hen" is neutral, literally meaning "one (thing)" and is used to show oneness in cooperation.

still not convinced? read john 17:31-36 - [31] The Jews then took up stones to stone him. Jesus answered them; Many good works have I shewed you from my Father. for which of those works do you stone me? The Jews answered him; For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them; Is it not written in your law, "I said, you are gods? If he called them gods to whom the word of God was spoken, and the scripture cannot be broken; Do you say of him whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world; Thou blasphemest; because I said; I am the Son of God?

so the jews jumped to the same conclusion that trinitarians do!. and jesus corrected them. he was saying he and his father are united.

also note that even jesus was argueing against the notion that him and his father are the same person.

john1:1 (kjv)- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(Gr Inter) - In beginning was the Word. and the Word was toward the God, and god was the word.

first is the obvious contradiction with the first clause, how can god be with the word and then the word be god?

but there is something else. "and the Word (lo'gos) was with God (ton the-os'). ton (the) is a form of the Greek definite article that points to a distinct identity. in this case GOD. so the quote can be read as "the Word was with THE GOD."

but, in "the Word was God", "ton" is missing. the word the-os no longer has a specific identity.

thats why some translations render the scripture -

1808: "and the word was a god." The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome's New Translation: With a Corrected Text.

1864: "and a god was the word." The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, by Benjamin Wilson.

1928: "and the Word was a divine being." La Bible du Centenaire, L'Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel.

1935: "and the Word was divine." The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.

1946: "and of a divine kind was the Word." Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme.

1950: "and the Word was a god." New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures.

1958: "and the Word was a God." The New Testament, by James L. Tomanek.

1975: "and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word." Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz.

1978: "and godlike kind was the Logos." Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider.

so why didnt the greek manuscripts simply include the article "a" before the second god? simple. ancient greek didnt have an article that meant "a". so the distinction was made with "ton"



[edit on 24-4-2008 by miriam0566]

is jesus equal to god?

john 5:18 - Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God.

i bring up this scripture because ive seen it used to try to prove that jesus was equal to god. problem is that the claim was being made by the pharisees, the immediate verses after, jesus refutes the claim.

19 - Then Jesus answered and said to them; Amen, Amen, I say unto you, The Son cannot do any thing of himself, and what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doth, these the Son also doth in like manner.

here he ackowledges God's lead.

was jesus created?

colossians 1:15 - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

revelation 3:14 - And to the angel of the church of Laodicea write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God;

simply put, jesus was created

Jesus' Baptisim

to illustrate just how confusing and illusive the trinity is, lets talk about his baptism. lets assume that the trinity is true for a second.

Jesus, a man but god, goes up to john who is the cousin of god. asks him to baptize him so that he can begin the work he sent himself to do. john precedes to baptize god who then begins to see himself descend upon himself like a dove. at this moment the heavens begin to open up to him which is unnecessary because god is omnipotent but it does anyway. jesus then throws his voice (he can do anything after all) and says a lie "this is my son" giving everyone there the impression that god is still in heaven even though he descended upon himself and is now sitting in the water. jesus then proceeds to the wilderness to mull over the things that he already new. there, satan comes up to him and proceeds to "tempt" god with 3 tests. satan tells jesus that he can provide for himself bread or protection from falling, he can even have the world governments if he wanted (though i dont see how that would be tempting to god). god then proceeds to tell satan that he cant worship him, but that he should worship himself.

should i keep going?

Conclusion

so there are no scriptures that say the word trinity. no scriptures that elude to the doctrine of the trinity. only scriptures that have God, Jesus, and the Holy in the same sentence.

there are scriptures that say jesus and god are one, but jesus himself says that it is with regards to being united.

countless scriptures of jesus praying to god, god anouncing jesus. jesus saying he was sent by god, jesus dieing (which god cant do), etc etc

hebrew scripture fervently states god as ONE god

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it suddenly makes sense why the trinity didnt really make an appearance until the 5th century. it was a pagan doctrine adopted by the church.

Bravo! Thank you for your reasoning.

The thing that has boggled me with trinitarians is; why is it so important? Why must Jah, Jesus and the spirit be the same? Why is it so crucial to your faith and beliefs? Not only does it not make sense physically but not spiritually either. Plus it says in the scriptures that we are made in their image. Nowhere do we see a similarity with three in one in our humanness. A grown man never returns to the womb of his mother.

It takes far more faith to believe in the trinity than otherwise. It is very convoluted. To say otherwise would be showing great denial. It is just so rudimentary and medieval. It went out with the fire and brimstone teachings and techniques.

reply to post by miriam0566


Lol, check out my thread in this forum, it's something the Holy Spirit revealed to me today, maybe for a good reason (I did'nt even see your thread til after I posted mine lol, what a coencodence right?)

Also there is a verse in the Bible where God calls Yeshua God and He says that He (Yeshua) has the authority to be worshiped. I can't remember where it is though, I'll have to do some digging.
Are you a Jehova's Witness? Your thread and analisys sorta sounds like it.

-Jimmy

reply to post by miriam0566


It sounds like you're misunderstanding the concept of the Trinity. What you said would make sense if it was the concept of three gods, but it's the concept of God being three identities who are the same. It's hard to comprehend and probably impossible to put in words.

It's hard to comprehend and probably impossible to put in words.

Yet, one of the biggest reasons why Jesus came to earth was to help mankind to love and understand his father. It seems with your words, that we were set up to fail!

Originally posted by jimmyjackblack

Are you a Jehova's Witness? Your thread and analisys sorta sounds like it.

-Jimmy

nope, non demoninational i guess would be closest.

where is your thread? i think im just missing it

Originally posted by Alcove
reply to post by miriam0566

 

It sounds like you're misunderstanding the concept of the Trinity. What you said would make sense if it was the concept of three gods, but it's the concept of God being three identities who are the same. It's hard to comprehend and probably impossible to put in words.

of course i am. the trinity is one of the many babylonian "mysteries". its not suppose to be easy to understand.

but, what i pointed out its that it is not supported by the bible. its something that has been added through decrees and aprocytal (sp?) writings.

Originally posted by miriam0566
THE BIBLE
1 john 5:7,8 - And there are Three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that give testimony on earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are one.

FINALLY! a scripture that is easy to understand! direct, simple and it says they are one. we have the trinity!

problem is, the scripture is a fake.

greek interlinear - "Because three are the (ones) bearing witness, the spirit and the water and the blood, and three into the one (thing) are.

doesnt even mention god, or the son. it doesnt say in heaven either. the king james version added that other bit in around the 15th century. there are theologians that would have killed to have a scripture like mentioned in king james, but i wasnt till later that we find it. most modern translations omit the added parts.

for a further discussion see www.answering-christianity.com...

We have it right here in the book of John. The Word was God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.


Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Originally posted by Shar
We have it right here in the book of John. The Word was God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.


Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

yes, in english that is how they translated it, but the original was in greek. ancient greek does not have an article for "a"

i went over this

john1:1 (kjv)- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(Gr Inter) - In beginning was the Word. and the Word was toward the God, and god was the word.

first is the obvious contradiction with the first clause, how can god be with the word and then the word be god?

but there is something else. "and the Word (lo'gos) was with God (ton the-os'). ton (the) is a form of the Greek definite article that points to a distinct identity. in this case GOD. so the quote can be read as "the Word was with THE GOD."

but, in "the Word was God", "ton" is missing. the word the-os no longer has a specific identity.

thats why some translations render the scripture -

1808: "and the word was a god." The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome's New Translation: With a Corrected Text.

1864: "and a god was the word." The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, by Benjamin Wilson.

1928: "and the Word was a divine being." La Bible du Centenaire, L'Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel.

1935: "and the Word was divine." The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.

1946: "and of a divine kind was the Word." Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme.

1950: "and the Word was a god." New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures.

1958: "and the Word was a God." The New Testament, by James L. Tomanek.

1975: "and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word." Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz.

1978: "and godlike kind was the Logos." Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider.

so why didnt the greek manuscripts simply include the article "a" before the second god? simple. ancient greek didnt have an article that meant "a". so the distinction was made with "ton"

"the word was god" and "the word was A god" are two completely different things

examine the greek interlinear and you see theos is written 2 different ways, on with 'ton" which is the.

if i say "the moon" you know which moon im talking about right? if im not talking about a specific moon, then i would say "a moon".

but in ancient greek, it's simpler. talking about something specific, add "ton" (theos ton, THE god). not talking about something specific, leave out "ton" (theos, A god)

so the scripture should be translated, "the word was A god"

Originally posted by Shar
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

col 1:[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

scripture clearly states that jesus is the first creation ever. after, god used jesus to create all other things.

Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

jesus did say that he showed the way... those who are christian are call beacons

Well to me saying “A God” would mean more than one God. However, saying, “the word was God” would mean One God. So it’s a matter of how you the individual looks at it.

Originally posted by Shar
Well to me saying “A God” would mean more than one God. However, saying, “the word was God” would mean One God. So it’s a matter of how you the individual looks at it.

but there is more than one god.

isaiah calls jesus prince of peace, and mighty god

2 corinthians calls satan the god of this world

duet. talks about dead gods made of wood and stone

psalms calls angels godlike ones

i think its in kings that even humans are refered to as gods. (infact jesus quoted that scripture when after he said him and the father are one, the jews tried to stone him)

However, there is still only one God. The scripture you are talking about is telling you this.

Satan is god of hell more or less and in the end he will be in the Lake of Fire.

Jesus is the prince of peace. Did he not try and heal our nation when he was here. Telling us right from wrong teaching us how to forgive and how light his burden is.

Angels are godlike to us. Cause they have spiritual powers that you and I don’t have. They know how to use this power and did when they fell to earth. They were like gods to us. Slaved us even and hurt us. Slept with the women and their power was so great that giants came from them. We were afraid of these falling angels. They were mean. They are now what we call demons.

reply to post by Shar


no arguement there... but they are still refered to by the bible (god's inspired word) as gods.

that having been said, scriptures in the law of moses make sense when they say you should not have any other gods before me. the only one who should be worshiped is almighty GOD,

proof that jesus is not the almighty GOD is also shown in the scripture where satan tests jesus.

1. why would satan try to tempt god? (because jesus is not almighty GOD)

2. jesus's reply what that the scriptures say you should only worship GOD (if jesus was GOD, how would that response make any sense)

3 satan offered the kingdoms given to him by GOD, why would he offer it back to GOD (because Jesus is not GOD)

This is correct but you must understand that to know Jesus is to know God. They are one. They think alike. Have same laws and rules. Think of Jesus as your lawyer. He’s the one who talks to God the Father for you. When you pray, you pray to Him he interprets this prayer for you. The Holy Spirit is your comforter. Any one who is truly saved can feel the Holy Spirit. When your lonely or confused or down you can feel Him. When there is a right and wrong and your being pulled two different directions that is the Holy spirit and a demon fighting over you. Every time you let the demon win you get farther and farther away from the Lord. Every time the Holy Spirit wins you get Closer and Closer to God.

In the book of Moses the commandments, “No other Gods before Me” is so true. Look how many of us do have other Gods before Him though.

How many of us would rather worship the tv, a video game, a movie, money, over Him. How many of us don’t take the time to pray and talk to Him. How many of us don’t even acknowledge Him. Well then you are worshipping these idol objects as your God. You are putting them before Him. Making them more important. How many Satan worshippers are there? Again, another god a lesser god a god of hell over Him. How many people pray to Mary mother of Jesus, or to an Angel. Again, putting them as Gods over Him.

You have to remember the scripture says, God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son….”

That goes along with John 1:1 In the Beginning was the word and the word was God…. You see God knew He needed to speak with us so he made his word, Himself flesh. He made a Son. His only Son, then sent Him hear just to speak to us.


[edit on 30-4-2008 by Shar]

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Ok, you were talking about this also. There is always a witness for us. There is 3 in Heaven which is easy to understand. We have The Father (God) the Word (which we now know is Jesus) and The Holy Ghost.

Likewise we have 3 to bear witness for us here on earth. You have the Spirit which is your spirit. ( are you saved? Your spirit knows.) the water did you receive baptism? (the water knows) and the blood (are you saved) the purification of your blood upon being saved knows. Also, did a drowning occur in the water? It knows it’s a witness. Did your spirit do wrong or right? It’s a witness. Did blood get shed or spilled on the earth? It knows it’s a witness. All of these are witnesses to anything good or bad to what happens.