Capitalism, the greatest gift to mankind

The narrow-minded see the only two examples laid before them, and believe they are exercising free will when choosing one or the other.

Use some imagination. Words like "communism" or "capitalism" are just labels. There are more alternatives...

Whenever I set out to post in threads concerning such passionately debated topics I always cringe a little because my views are usually fairly unpopular. I know I shouldn't care and should “stick to my guns” as some would say, but I can't help but feel a bit of trepidation and hesitancy because I always feel that it’s “against the grain” so to speak. Nevertheless, I figure I have as much of a right to express my view as anyone else does, so I can only grit my teeth and hope (trust?) that people will understand that it is only my personal opinion. I don't want to convince anyone of its "correctness" and I don't fault anyone for their own views, no matter how much they diverge from my own or how vehemently they may disagree with me. If anything, I respect their passion.

Assuming that a so-called communist system were governmental, in the hitherto adhered to sense, then I concur that freedom would be enjoyed by far fewer than what is the norm in a capitalist society, although that still depends largely on the character and nature of said government in my opinion.

That having been said, what if it was not governmental, but rather, truly communal in nature? What if rather than an executive or state power center through which such a system were directed, it existed as a genuinely collective and cooperative entity, based on genuine compassion, selflessness, and unity that was simultaneously respectful of individual rights, freedoms, and pursuits? What if currency, and indeed the very concept of "value" (including even bartering of any kind) assignment, were not part of such a paradigm? What if it were simultaneously communal and democratic?

This is the part where I state what is usually a hugely unpopular opinion in my experience:

I believe that humanity is capable of the scenario suggested in the above questions, that it could exist peacefully, successfully, and without anarchy, and that it could do so without a power structure of any kind whatsoever, with equal importance, rights, and respect shared and enjoyed by every member of such a society.

And, last but not least, the following is what is generally the least popular part of my opinion:

I believe that what would make all of this possible is, simply, love; unconditional, selfless, genuine love.

Is this illogical, you ask? Well, in the context of reality as I perceive it, no, however in the context of the meaning generally applied to the term "logic," then yes; most definitely. (And reality as I perceive it may not be the best gauge of anything!) However, as I said, this is only my personal opinion. Naturally, there are all sorts of practical challenges facing anyone entertaining such a hypothetical scenario. Do I have any idea how this could, would, or should be implemented in a way that would work and address those issues? No. That does not disqualify or invalidate my right to the opinion, however, contrary to what many have argued in the past.

I have great faith in humanity and what we are capable of. I am not saying that this is definitely within our grasp, but it is my opinion that it is possible and that it is within our capacity. I genuinely respect and appreciate the views of those who disagree with me. I won't argue with you, and I don't bear you any ill will. I won't try to convince you of my view, because it is exactly that: my own personal, non-evangelical, point of view. I ask that you afford me the same courtesy.

I see you criticize left wing politics and said capitalism work, i want to say that the left and the right doesn't work both, just look what happen in russia and look what happen in the world now with your capitalism, maybe it work for you but tell this to the african people who suffer from capitalism and wait for the answer if they didn't already shot you a bullet in the head.

You think money is freedom, me i say money is slavery, without money you can do nothing, you are forced to work even if there is no work or you loose your allocation, that make me sick.
I don't want get a work to feed the rich and get money, i want to do something that will give me food, we must rebuild the society, change all, nothing works, it's getting worst and worst everyday!

I would prefer living in the wild, seed my vegetable and stay away from all this pain and suffer, i don't want your money, your money made me poor, forced me to take food in the trash sometimes, forced me to occupy an empty house from which i've been kick because it wasn't my property, we just wanted a roof but this the capitalist don't care, we are just parasite because we refuse to live in your so called beautiful society and became inevitably outlaw, not because i wanted to but because capitalism forced me to become it, this is a one way system, walk or die, it is that your vision of freedom?

This is profit before people, they don't care about you, they want what you will do for them and they'll give you a very very very little piece of the cake, if you don't mind that your boss ride a big car, smoking his big cigar, drinking expensive wine wherever and whenever he want while you work so hard, leaving family and friends in your back to get few bucks at the end of the month to pay your bills, then yes i agree with you capitalism work, and i can call you a sheep.

Money is killing us, we don't need that as we don't need power, this 2 things are just destroying our world.

I will stop by saying that i know more happy poor people then rich happy people, some friend who beg everyday travel all the times they have seen and lived lot of things that most of people will never seen/do, money is just a lure to attract you in their system and manure their profit in thinking you are doing the right things, just like religion do, and obviously it works on some peoples.

[edit on 23-4-2008 by ufopunx]

Originally posted by TheSilentProtagonist
"It’s for those very reasons that I champion Capitalism. People have been victims of Socialism and communisms long enough. "

So you attribute the problems of all the worlds poor and side-lined to "communisms"?.

Yes I do. In the same way as many people believe that Capitalism is the root of all evil, which is the biggest lie

I think you miss read what i said, in capitalism, people get what they need only if they have the money. The examples i gave have nothing to do with what you may call "communism". (having said that, what DO you think communism is?) The reason they are in the state they are in is becuase capitalism has failed to provide for them nor given them any practical means to help themselves.

Capitalism doesn’t fail anybody, Capitalism is a vehicle to prosperity, the only vehicle.

Do you undersand the basic principles of capitalism as a system? If things are not made and jobs not done its becuase there is no market for them.

Where there are people there is a market. People need food, shelter, medicine, clean water, and the list goes on and on

The clothes you are wearing, the grain in your bread, the computer you were typing on? they were all produced, by people, to sell on a market. And the only reason they went to the effort of making them is to get profit from doing so. Actual, practical need, comes second.

Humans are not cows, we need other things besides the basics, like entertainment, vacations, etc.

It CANNOT satisfy everyone becuase there are some people in the world where it is not "profitable" to help. Stop using a misguided straw-man theory of communism to blame for all the worlds misgivings and give some genuine thought as to why the world might be in the state its in.

The world is in the state that it is in because of envy and hate, no other reason.

Originally posted by mattguy404
In relation to the climate, yes people do have flaws, but people on their own don't spew forth massive amounts of industrial pollution.

True but if we shut down the power plants and other industries that we depend on to exist in this life we the people will freak out and demand that heads get chopped off. Remember those brown outs on the east and west coasts?

We shut down clean nuclear energy and built hundreds of coal burning plants instead, that’s people power for you. Coal burning plants are huge polluters but that’s what we the people demanded, and that’s what we got.

Originally posted by gdeed
There is plenty to go around. Once we run out of oil we will use other energy sources created in Capitalistic labs.

And that's where I will end making any logical argument with you. A statement like that just goes against all reasoning. Where or what are these 'capitalistic labs'? Something is just going to 'come along' is it, like magic?

Solar cells, wind turbans, bio fuels and many more things in the pipeline, they weren’t created by the tooth fairy you know

Those 'capitalistic labs' would control whatever new energy they're supposedly going to come up with and the whole cycle of control will start over again. It's those same 'capitalistic labs' that are working to control the world's seeds and means of food production - farmers in India are literally hanging themselves because seeds gathered from their previous crops do not germinate because they have been genetically modified.

Mostly propaganda. Nevertheless, most countries don’t have free Capitalism, they have state controlled and bureaucratic watered down Capitalism, also known as socialism. Not the same thing as real Capitalism

Judge the following two scenarios by whether or not they are economically viable, from the viewpoint of someone who espouses capitalistic principles:


1) Spend a significant amount of the public savings on education. Costs will run high and there will be no returns for at least 20 years.


2) Spend nothing on education. Instead, use the money to buy weapons, territory, influence, investments in profitable companies, and other material goods.



Now, if an uneducated public means that over time, the gross national product of the nation will fall, while at the same time innovation, discovery, new manufacturing techniques, and technical progress are hindered due to a lack of skills among the workforce, then wouldn't it be easy to conclude that a great deal of wealth would be lost over the coming generations?


On the other hand, you can rob from the future to satisfy your avarice today, and perhaps some of you can achieve great "wealth". But at what expense? Spending money on profitable investments you're likely to see in the short term is one thing, but is it worth it if the sacrifice sets back humanity's progress by 100 years... or worse, causes it to lapse into a social state that existed a hundred years earlier?


Capitalist philosophies see profit as the sole motive for activity.


A person dedicated to the advancement of prosperity for the whole of humanity would see the investment in education worth far more overall, to far more people than anything you could hope to gain by spending the resources on something else.


This short-circuiting and narrow-mindedness of capitalism is destructive. It values profit above everything else. It reduces human ambition and endeavors to a number, and to be judged by that number, irrelevant of the value any other member of society might place in it. So very much of what is needed and necessary for the sustainment of humanity is neglected, and a great mass of humanity suffers from it for the benefit of a very few.


The word capitalism is just an intellectual's label for social acceptance of greed. Greed on this scale is like a cancer... and right now humanity is fighting for its life.

Originally posted by AceWombat04
That having been said, what if it was not governmental, but rather, truly communal in nature? What if rather than an executive or state power center through which such a system were directed, it existed as a genuinely collective and cooperative entity, based on genuine compassion, selflessness, and unity that was simultaneously respectful of individual rights, freedoms, and pursuits? What if currency, and indeed the very concept of "value" (including even bartering of any kind) assignment, were not part of such a paradigm? What if it were simultaneously communal and democratic?

When you visit Europe and other countries, what strikes most is all the castles and moats and fortresses that there are. We humans have always wanted what others have and so we pillaged throughout history, and still do. Stalin, Hitler, Castro, Chaves, and the list goes on.

Humans are seldom selfless, and that’s the problem with creating a utopia.

I believe that humanity is capable of the scenario suggested in the above questions, that it could exist peacefully, successfully, and without anarchy, and that it could do so without a power structure of any kind whatsoever, with equal importance, rights, and respect shared and enjoyed by every member of such a society.

Every country in the world has a standing army for a reason, because humanity has never been peaceful and likely never will be. Unfortunately

I believe that what would make all of this possible is, simply, love; unconditional, selfless, genuine love.

All of us would need to comply with those ideals, but we can’t even attain them within our families, how then can we do so with strangers?

Originally posted by ianr5741

The narrow-minded see the only two examples laid before them, and believe they are exercising free will when choosing one or the other.

Use some imagination. Words like "communism" or "capitalism" are just labels. There are more alternatives...

Quite right. We as a species seriously need to think outside the box.

Gdeed your being a tad simplistic dont you think? i am giving EXAMPLES. I know full well we are not cattle and have needs beyond just food, shelter etc, but im trying to demonstrate that if capitalism cant even provide those things for everyone then how the hell will it deal with the rest?
A couple of queries mein herr:

Yes I do. In the same way as many people believe that Capitalism is the root of all evil, which is the biggest lie
-Explain. Why do you believe this? How does EVERYTHING wrong with the world relate back to your warped view of "communisms"?

Where there are people there is a market. People need food, shelter, medicine, clean water, and the list goes on and on
-Wrong. There is only a market where there are people to spend money. Thats what Market reasearch is for. There are plenty of people who NEED those things you mentioned, but they dont have the money to purchase them. So the people who produce these things will not make any profit, so therefore it does not happen. Why would anyone go to the effort of making things of there is no one to buy them?

Capitalism doesn’t fail anybody, Capitalism is a vehicle to prosperity, the only vehicle.
-Why the only vechicle? We have established that capitalism has brought makind this far succesfully, but not without failings. How do you know that this is the only system mankind will ever need?

Originally posted by ufopunx
I see you criticize left wing politics and said capitalism work, i want to say that the left and the right doesn't work both, just look what happen in russia and look what happen in the world now with your capitalism, maybe it work for you but tell this to the african people who suffer from capitalism and wait for the answer if they didn't already shot you a bullet in the head.

The problem with Africa is that there is very little if any real Capitalism there.

You think money is freedom, me i say money is slavery, without money you can do nothing, you are forced to work even if there is no work or you loose your allocation, that make me sick.

Work is what makes the world go round. Under Capitalism you have more choices in what work you will do.

I don't want get a work to feed the rich and get money, i want to do something that will give me food, we must rebuild the society, change all, nothing works, it's getting worst and worst everyday!

Most countries don’t have Capitalism, it sounds like you live in one of them. Many tyrants and left-wingers are very rich because they took money from their people. Being rich don’t mean you are a Capitalist.

Russia is not a Capitalist country, they allow a little bit of it and that is all.

Money is killing us, we don't need that as we don't need power, this 2 things are just destroying our world.

If money bothers you carry around some sheep and hogs, otherwise what are your going to trade with? People are not going to give you anything if you don’t give them something in return. That’s the way things work on this planet, always has been and always will.

I will stop by saying that i know more happy poor people then rich happy people, some friend who beg everyday travel all the times they have seen and lived lot of things that most of people will never seen/do, money is just a lure to attract you in their system and manure their profit in thinking you are doing the right things, just like religion do, and obviously it works on some peoples.

Nothing wrong with being happy and poor. In American if you are poor you should be happy. Free housing, free food, free transportation, free hospitalization, free schools and you don’t have to work that much or at all.

I’m middle class and I have to work for everything I get, and I also have to work to keep my house from falling apart.

If I was poor the taxpayer pays to keep my house in new condition. No wonder the poor are happy.

Originally posted by ianr5741

Judge the following two scenarios by whether or not they are economically viable, from the viewpoint of someone who espouses capitalistic principles:


1) Spend a significant amount of the public savings on education. Costs will run high and there will be no returns for at least 20 years.


2) Spend nothing on education. Instead, use the money to buy weapons, territory, influence, investments in profitable companies, and other material goods.

I don’t know where you live but in my city every public school has been torn down and new ones built, new computers new everything, billions were spent and billions continue to be spent on education in my town alone, yet learning is way off, worse now with all the new schools than it was before. What’s that about? Perhaps our leftwing teachers union.

reply to post by gdeed


Quite true. As I said in my post, I have no solution for those challenges. I still however maintain that it is possible, however seemingly improbable or difficult. I can at least say that I for one do unconditionally love everyone. That may not change the world, but hopefully it changes me, which is the one person I have control over.

Originally posted by TheSilentProtagonist
Gdeed your being a tad simplistic dont you think? i am giving EXAMPLES. I know full well we are not cattle and have needs beyond just food, shelter etc, but im trying to demonstrate that if capitalism cant even provide those things for everyone then how the hell will it deal with the rest?

If allowed Capitalism can meet everyone’s needs, even those in third world countries.

-Explain. Why do you believe this? How does EVERYTHING wrong with the world relate back to your warped view of "communisms"?

Communism provides no incentive. Humans need incentive, not left propaganda.

-Wrong. There is only a market where there are people to spend money. Thats what Market reasearch is for. There are plenty of people who NEED those things you mentioned, but they dont have the money to purchase them. So the people who produce these things will not make any profit, so therefore it does not happen. Why would anyone go to the effort of making things of there is no one to buy them?

Under communism, your statement would be true. Under Capitalism people have jobs or they have welfare money to buy what they want or need.

Capitalism doesn’t fail anybody, Capitalism is a vehicle to prosperity, the only vehicle.

-Why the only vechicle? We have established that capitalism has brought makind this far succesfully, but not without failings. How do you know that this is the only system mankind will ever need?

Nothing has yet to come along and outperform Capitalism, perhaps in a few hundred years after Capitalism has solved most of the problems a new system might work.

Perhaps the problems in education you ascribe to "socialism" are not due to that at all, but rather a deliberate effort by those who are in control of finance to reduce the effectiveness of education.


Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt, former Senior Policy Advisor in the US Department of Education, exclaims that this is exactly what is happening in America today.


www.deliberatedumbingdown.com...


And here's a smart man talking about this very subject. It might be funny if it wasn't so true.





[edit on 25-4-2008 by ianr5741]

reply to post by ianr5741


George Carlin is one of the biggest leftwing puppets that are on the payroll of those leftwing owners he spouts about.

Don’t you think that if we were being control as he says that they would stop people like him? What kind of power do these “owners” have anyway if they can’t stop the leftwing Hollywood machine? Are they wimps?

No, they are not wimps and George Carlin is one of them. He laughs all the way to the bank to deposit all that money he is paid to attack a system that he helped create and is a very big part of. Just like most of his Hollywood buddies, they have the power of the media, and there is no greater power.

reply to post by gdeed


What do you mean by real capitalism?
And i was refering to what african suffer BECAUSE of the capitalism, all this people dying because of money and power.

Work is what makes the world go round. Under Capitalism you have more choices in what work you will do

So i should be glad because i have more work to choose? dude i don't want to work, at least not for money, i don't want money, i want food, friendship, love and fun, capitalism doesn't offer me that, capitalism take all this from you and me because to get that we need money, we have to pay for eat, drink, sleep, live, it is insane.

Most countries don’t have Capitalism, it sounds like you live in one of them. Many tyrants and left-wingers are very rich because they took money from their people. Being rich don’t mean you are a Capitalist

Most don't have but most suffer from it like africa, rich powered people going everywhere with there factory because slavery is not a problem there, they just want to get money by any means necessary!
Oh and by the way i'm leaving in belgium, where the capital of the country is the capital of europe so if my country have not capitalsim i dunno what it is!!!

If money bothers you carry around some sheep and hogs, otherwise what are your going to trade with? People are not going to give you anything if you don’t give them something in return. That’s the way things work on this planet, always has been and always will.

I'm vegan so i will not grow animals to kill and eat them, and i don't want to trade with someone, this is why people are loosing solidarity, they will give/do something only if they get something in exchange, when a friend need something i will give it to him without waiting something back because i know that when i will need him, he will be there, but unfortunatly, because of money, a lot of people have forget that, and instead of getting everybody helping each other we have everybody killing each other and for what$
And i'd like to have big square of garden to grow my vegetable but again i have to pay for it.

Nothing wrong with being happy and poor. In American if you are poor you should be happy. Free housing, free food, free transportation, free hospitalization, free schools and you don’t have to work that much or at all

that's maybe the case in america but certainly not here, there is sure some help but sometimes you will have to pay back what they gave to you, we had a nice unemployement service but it's also getting worst and worst.
And maybe you get free stuff but i think you don't get that like this so easily, there is certainly some "meeting" to go, some stuff to do, have a ""special profile""( sorry bad english ) etc... and if don't match with it then bye bye free stuff.

If I was poor the taxpayer pays to keep my house in new condition. No wonder the poor are happy

That this what traditional right mindless(sorry but it's what i think about that sentence as i heard it oftenly) people think, maybe the working people pay indirectly the poor house etc... but you really should remember that the poor pay some taxes too when he buy stuff in the supermarket, those paid taxes go straight in the government pocket, so the poor is paying his house as the rich did and as i'm paying my unemployement allowance.

reply to post by ufopunx



Most countries if not all of them in Europe are Socialist. Socialism allows some Capitalism but heavily controlled or completely owned by the government.

America is almost to that point that’s why companies are moving over seas. America use to have real Capitalism but the left has taken over our government and so things are changing for the worst.

In American no one has to work at all. Americans can go on welfare and live a fairly good life. We even encourage people on welfare to have more children. The more children they have the bigger the tax refund check they get every year.

Even those who pay zero taxes can get up to $4000.00 in tax returns if they have three or more children.

As long as we have big fat corporations to pay for most of this poor Americans will do just fine. The funny thing is most so call poor hate corporations and end up voting into office politicians that are running our corporations into bankruptcy or out of the country.

Talk about killing the golden goose.