Chemtrails Vs Contrails... There's a MASSIVE Difference!!! Check these out...

Originally posted by zorgon

As far as I am concerned it is a Military operation...

So, do you agree that these are not chemtrails? Or are the USAF flying aircraft masquerading as transatlantic jets - which, in fact, do not exist? It's an either or situation - which involves millions of air passengers .....

Originally posted by defcon5
reply to post by Alien Abduct

 

When I have worked for an airline and was intimately familiar with what was loaded on the planes, what equipment we had to do that loading, and saw those same planes leave cloud forming contrails, then YES, I CAN SAY WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY THAT THERE ARE NO CHEMTRAILS. I was both a lead agent and a supervisor, which means that NOTHING went on or in the plane that I was not aware of.

Is that clear enough for you?

LET ME CLEAR THIS UP FOR YOU....

Your statement only means that ONLY the planes YOU PERSONALLY LOADED can you say for sure that to the best of your knowledge didn't have this chemtrail making equipment.

Now, have you loaded all of the planes in all of these photographs in question? NOPE!

Is that clear enough for you?

Originally posted by zorgon Works fine if you copy and paste the url... for some reason it does not work pasted into ATS

Yeah I have experience with playing this game with you already, don’t you recall this interaction from the last time I had to try and parse out one of your URLS:

Originally posted by defcon5
As to the website it came from:

Whoever runs “the living moon” website is a Class 1 Grade A Moron. What type of admin thinks it’s funny to redirect any incorrect URL to the FBI home page? I bet the FBI would not find it very amusing that there bandwidth is being wasted in such a fashion.

Originally posted by zorgon
Another typical ploy by people such as yourself... if you can't beat the data, resort to name calling. Perhaps if you were not snooping in directories where you don't belong, you would not be visiting those boys...

Therefore, excuse me if I am not going to do your legwork for you.

Originally posted by zorgon
However here is the Youtube video... that this site merely posted and discussed...

Wow…
Another Youtube video…
This is starting to feel like a truth movement thread already.
Anyone can make a video and stick it on youtube, why not try some real science.

Either way, that “News Broadcast” has already been explained as radar chaff. Radar Chaff is a harmless substance that has been in use since WWII, and does not meet the standard criteria of persistent cloud formation that chemtrailers claim.

Originally posted by zorgon
I do not doubt that... seems you have a habit of not believing much of anything no matter the source... how convenient for you

I have no problem with accepting evidence as long as it comes from a source that is reputable, certainly not some home brew, “New Age”, Medical site.

Originally posted by zorgon
Why? Isn't that your main purpose here at ATS? Try to confuse the issues and give out disinfo? Its not working BTW

The only JOKE around here is your attempts at disinfo... sad very sad... I hope your not getting a paycheck ... it would be a waste of money

So rather then refute my proof, you fall back on the name-calling, and personnel attacks. Very typical of the Chemtrail defense that we have seen in these threads so far.

Originally posted by zorgon
How about CNN? Are they a 'wacko' source?

The actual CNN portion of that video is about Morgellons Disease, not about Chemtrails. There is NO credible proof of any connection between the two, except in the deluded minds of some Chemtrail believers. The actual suspected cause, is that its a waste product of a viral, bacterial, or fungal infection found in those with a weak immune system. It appears similar to a plant disease that is cause by an invading fungus, which people with a normal immune system are resistant to. The appearance of cellulose in the fibers, and the appearance of planet genes which have been found in patients, show this to be true... (Watch your own video at 05:08)

So what part of the actual CNN video was about Chemtrails?
What was with this sorry attempt at misleading readers here that you actually had a credible news source? The rest of that video was Chemtrail nonsense that was spliced onto the original video by some Chemtrail believer, including scenes from “Space Ghost”. Did you honestly even watch your own video that you posted a proof, or did you really think folks here would believe that the entire video came from CNN?

reply to post by defcon5


defcon, good luck....you are well on your way to debate this one!

Personally, I'd rather debate a wildebeast!


I'm off to check out a Pimsleur method to learn a new language, since I'm going to Denmark in July. Besides Danish, maybe I'll look into some German, just so Herr Zorgon can understand what I'm trying to say!!

Personally, I prefer French....guess I'll try to improve what I already know, n'est pas?

WW

reply to post by weedwhacker


Here's another flight, from KLAX to KEWR

This time, AAL FLight 164 a B752

Flight Plan is ....HOLTZ9, TRM PKE J78 DRK RSK J64 PWE J192 IOW GIJ CRL J584 SLT FQM FQM1 (arrival) to KEWR.

See, different airline, different flight plan?

Both hoping to take advantage, of what is already pre-programmed with ATC, to get better winds? But, on the same route, different companies have to compete, on similar routes.....

Sheesh! Why doesn't anyone understand?!?

WW

Originally posted by Alien Abduct

LET ME CLEAR THIS UP FOR YOU....
Now, have you loaded all of the planes in all of these photographs in question? NOPE!
Is that clear enough for you?

Airlines rotate aircraft according to a maintenance schedule, and as I worked for a company that fueled and provided contract ramp service to an entire airport, I have worked on a vast number of aircraft across the airlines. Therefore, I have worked on a significant portion of both foreign and domestic aircraft that were flying at the time. Additionally, when you work at an airport, you work in a small city where everyone knows everyone else’s business, so there was a great amount of exposure to even the airlines I did not work on. The airport itself is arranged in gates, which are located right next to each other, and it is hard for one airline to be doing something that the guys at another cannot see. If a strange new piece of ramp equipment showed up on some airlines ramp, you can guarantee that folks would be stopping by to see what it was, and check it out. If there were chemical storage tanks located at the airport you can similarly bet that they would not be a secret. Again, all aircraft maintain a similar set of connections and servicing procedures, so that in a pinch, contract personnel can be brought in to run their ground servicing with no additional training or special equipment. I have even worked on BA’s Concord’s and despite their unusual configuration, everything still plugs into the same style of ports. The only pieces of equipment that radically change between aircraft are towbars and pins, and even those are kept in sets so they can be quickly changed and accessed.

So let me again further clear this up for you…
It ain’t happening.

If you don’t believe me then go get a part time service job for your local airports ramp contract company. Next thing you know you’ll be in here posting that chemtrails don’t exist.

reply to post by defcon5


defcon....you get a star from me, if for nothing else, just sheer determination....since I try and try, and you manage to DO IT!!!

[side bar....hope all is well in the office]

To all that come around, and read these posts....defcon5 is the real deal!!

You may think what you want about me....my bona fides are evident, if you ask....I am just saying, this ATS member is true, in my opinion.

WW

Originally posted by zorgon
You do NOT have to be employed by the Government to be a disinfo agent.. heck you can volunteer for that as many on ATS do

All that you require as credentials is to spread mainsteam BS as fae as you can...

I don’t know how you can say this to us with a straight face considering the BS that you, Lear, and Vegh pass off to web reading public. From your own site:

The Living Moon Website
The complexity of these projects is necessary in order to deliver a complete briefing for visiting venture capitalists, investors, firms, institutions, and their affiliates. Pegasus Research Consortium acts as a clearing house for overlooked and emerging technologies as well as a generator of emerging technologies.

I think that says it all right there.
You guys are in this for the money and fame. You are lying through your teeth to the public in the hopes that you can get radio interviews, speaking deals, and published books.

Then you have the brass nozzles to sit there and call actual professionals from the field, who are reporting the truth, disinformation agents!

reply to post by weedwhacker


Thank you, your experience obviously eclipses my own on these topics however. I don’t think there is any doubt by the majority of people here that you are the real deal.

As to the office thing, I’ll know more in the next couple of months, but it does not look like either side is budging much so far. When you work in a three-way partnership, then these things are bound to happen I suppose. Unfortunately the rest of us normal employees are caught in the middle atm.


[edit on 4/22/2008 by defcon5]

reply to post by defcon5


THANK YOU!!! Defcon5, for seeing through the hype!!!

Zorgon...and, I am at my wits end here, U2U Privacy be damned!!!

I am close to calling you out, on your BS!!

Feel free to tell eveyone about me, if you wish, Zorgon. I have nothing to hide here!

You told me that a U2U was private, and divulging intimate details would lead to banning.

Well, I could care less, right now, if I get banned from ATS!

Because, it comes down to 'put up or shut up'.

Let the Mods beware!!

ww




[edit on 4/22/0808 by weedwhacker]

Originally posted by Essan
Unless the US Airforce has tens of thousands of extra aircraft flying all over the world disguised as airliners ..... and domestic air flight is a myth

Well I don't know how many they have doing this... and quite frankly I only recently picked up interest in the Chemtrails... The reason for my interest was the incident I observed over my house... within 20 minutes or so the sky was covered with a lattice work of these trails... there were at least five planes involved... all appeared to be identical... flying faster than what I would call 'normal' for commercial jets... (and higher)

I will obviously not convince you... but I know what I saw...

It was this that made me take a serious look at this phenomena

To Herr Weedwacker...

Showing that 'smoke generators' attached to a NASA plane is NOT misdirection... it simply shows that such equipment does exist... it is only a small step to belleive that something OTHER than smoke could easily be deployed the same way... and they could still call it SMOKE

The problem I see with most skeptics is they attack every point as a single point... never take a step back to piece it all together

As to whether its totally military, or whether they mix stuff into airline fuel? I have no idea ... yet

But considering the speed at which those five or six planes covered the sky in a checker board pattern... and the cloud effects we witnessed immediately after, it would not take the huge number of planes that Essan envisions.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
To all that come around, and read these posts....defcon5 is the real deal!!
....I am just saying, this ATS member is true, in my opinion.

So if Defcon5 says its so... then its so huh?

you always manage to amuse me... so have you checked his credentials? or just take his word for it?



Not that I doubt he was a fuel inspector

Originally posted by zorgon
So if Defcon5 says its so... then its so huh?

you always manage to amuse me... so have you checked his credentials? or just take his word for it?

Or it could be as simple as the fact that we used to work on the same airlines and knew information that was not public.

As a matter of fact, and I hope this is not going to upset Zaphod, but me and Zaph used to work for different divisions of the same company at different stations. I have very little doubt that either of these posters is being less then truthful.

Originally posted by zorgon
Not that I doubt he was a fuel inspector

I was not a fuel inspector, I was a ramp agent, fueler, lead agent, and ramp supervisor.

Well the NASA 'smoke generators' were Exhibit "A"

Here is Exhibit "B"

THE SMOKING GUN errr Exhaust Port

The Air Force operates many aircraft and space systems that are constantly interacting with the environment. Atmospheric interactions such as exhaust gases forming contrails, chaff and flares deployment that produce smoke, aerial pest or weed control spraying, or in-flight emergency fuel releases usually have very minor environmental impacts over a very limited geographical area.

aerial pest or weed control spraying

Now WHY the hell is the Air Force taking your job away Herr Weedwacker? And what 'pests' are they spraying for?

This site provides basic information and links about contrails, aircraft and space launch exhaust emissions, chaff and flares, aerial spraying, in-flight emergency procedures, and related topics.

Aircraft, engines, chaff, and flares can produce a variety of condensation patterns (or contrails), exhaust plumes, vapor trails, or smoke patterns. The exhaust emissions produced by aircraft and space launch vehicles can produce contrails that look very similar to clouds which can last for only a few seconds or as long as several hours.



Chaff and flares produce unique smoke patterns that are visibly different than a contrail but have the same color and appearance as a cloud but which also typically dissipates very quickly.

Now here it comes... a public official Air Force statement...

Aerial spraying for pest or weed control and fire suppression are the only Air Force activities which involve aircraft intentionally spraying chemical compounds (insecticides, herbicides, fire retardants, oil dispersants).

So the Air Force ADMITS to spraying chemicals for pest control and weed wacking... ( Just hope WE aren't the pest )

Oops almost forgot... you want the source

A few more snippets...

Aircraft engines emit water vapor, carbon dioxide (CO2), small amounts of nitrogen oxides(NOx), hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide, sulfur gases, and soot and metal particles formed by the high-temperature combustion of jet fuel during flight.

Often, military aircraft can be seen taking off with a black smoke appearing from the engines. This smoke is mainly soot particles, similar to diesel engines. Commercial aircraft also produce the same type of soot particles, but usually not to the same degree as military aircraft. This is for two reasons: the type of fuel and the type of engines.

Most military aircraft use JP-8 jet fuel which is a blend of commercial Jet Aviation Fuel -1 (or Jet A-1) with three extra additives. The additives are used to control ice formation, control biogrowth (molds and slimes), and inhibit corrosion.

Funny Defcon5 made no mention of these additives wonder what else he forgot to mention

The aerial spray mission uses four specially configured C-130 Hercules shown below. Aerial spraying enables large parcels of land or water to be treated safely, quickly, accurately, and cheaply. This is the only fixed wing aerial-spray capability in the Department of Defense.

The most common missions flown are for mosquito, sand flea and weed control. Several states have also requested support to combat grasshoppers and locusts. Aerial spray missions have been flown in Puerto Rico, Panama, Guam and the Azores.

The chemical compounds used for mosquito control are EPA controlled and the Air Force uses two primary brands; Dibrom and Anvil 10+10. Dibrom is manufactured by AMVAC Chemical Corporation and is classified as a Naled compound. Naled is an organophosphate insecticide that has been in use since 1959.

The chemical compounds used for herbicide weed control are EPA controlled and the Air Force uses Dupont Krovar I DF and Dow Agro Sciences Tordon K. Krovar I DF comes in granular form, is mixed with water and applied as an aerosol to control annual weeds at a rate of 4-6 pounds mixed with 40-100 gallons of water per acre. Tordon K is used as a herbicide to control broadleaf weeds, woody plants, and vines on non-crop areas such as forest planting sites, industrial manufacturing sites, rights-of-way such as electrical power lines, communications lines, pipelines, roadsides, railroads, and wildlife openings. Tordon K is applied at a maximum of 2 quarts per acre.

The 910th Airlift Wing has formed an Oil Dispersant Working Group, and is working with industry and government agencies to test aerial spray methods of controlling major offshore oil spills in coastal waters of the United States. The unit has six Modular Aerial Spray Systems (MASS) and four aircraft modified to accept the MAAS. Each MASS has a 2,000 gallon capacity
and flow rate are set at 232 gallons per minute. The aircraft flies at 200 Knots Ground Speed at about 100 feet which covers a swath width of 100 feet for an average application rate of flow rate of 5 gallons per acre (variable 3-15 gallons per acre). Total spray-on time for 2,000 gallons lasts about 8 minutes and 30 seconds

Well now that is a whole lot of chemicals being sprayed...but bear in mind that this paper was released SPECIFICALLY to address the "Chemtrail" issue...

The "Chemtrail" Hoax
A hoax that has been around since 1996 accuses the Air Force of being involved in spraying the US population with mysterious substances and show various Air Force aircraft "releasing sprays" or generating unusual contrail patterns. Several authors cite an Air University research paper titled "Weather as a Force Multiplier: Owning the Weather in 2025"
(www.au.af.mil...) that suggests the Air Force is conducting weather modification experiments. The purpose of that paper was part of a thesis to outline a strategy for the use of a future weather modification system to achieve military objectives and it does not reflect current military policy, practice, or capability.

The Air Force's policy is to observe and forecast the weather. The Air Force is focused on observing and forecasting the weather so the information can be used to support military operations. The Air Force is not conducting any weather modification experiments or programs and has no plans to do so in the future.

The "Chemtrail" hoax has been investigated and refuted by many established and accredited universities, scientific organizations, and major media publications.

Uh huh...

www.af.mil...



[edit on 23-4-2008 by zorgon]

reply to post by defcon5


You see Defcon your talking about commercial flights.

Not the Government flights that are producing the chemtrails.

Commercial flights and Government flights are two different things.

Clear enough?

I'm afraid this might be falling on Def ears

Originally posted by zorgon
aerial pest or weed control spraying
Now WHY the hell is the Air Force taking your job away Herr Weedwacker? And what 'pests' are they spraying for?

For someone who claims to be so much “in the know”, you really don’t know much if you have to ask that…

You ever hear of a little thing called the Vietnam War, and something called Agent Orange?
The reason why the military has to be able to kill pests and clear foliage should be obvious to most people, but ill explain it for you. First off, they have to kill pests to keep disease down when they are in certain environments, such as jungles. Secondly, they need to be able to quickly defoliate thick underbrush to allow line of sight to their troops who have to fight people who might use that foliage as cover.

Chaff does not look like Chemtrails, it is made of aluminum and quickly disperses and falls to the ground. Fuel dumps do not make lingering cloud cover, and again quickly disperses. Aerial spraying, again being heavy disperses and falls to the ground rapidly. This is what aerial spraying looks like:






Done at low altitude, it disperses within a few hundred feet of the aircraft that dropped it, it certainly does not form a cloud and remain in the air.

Originally posted by defcon5

The Living Moon Website
The complexity of these projects is necessary in order to deliver a complete briefing for visiting venture capitalists, investors, firms, institutions, and their affiliates. Pegasus Research Consortium acts as a clearing house for overlooked and emerging technologies as well as a generator of emerging technologies.

I think that says it all right there.
You guys are in this for the money and fame. You are lying through your teeth to the public in the hopes that you can get radio interviews, speaking deals, and published books.

Wow how incredibly stupid of you... and I thought you had some intelligence

:shk:

The 'capital' mentioned in that statement is for the inventor etc NOT for us... there is no 'book deal' and unlike ATS we do not make millions off ads, etc... the Livingmoon is paid for entirely out of my pocket... John does do the occasional lecture... about one per year and the fee for that barely covers the expenses, however this has nothing to do with Pegasus as he was doing that long before we ever met...

Its funny how skeptics like yourself always resort to stupid UNTRUE BS when they cannot support their argument... and I hope your ego inflating buddy weedwacker gets a star or two for the groveling support...

Then you have the brass nozzles to sit there and call actual professionals from the field, who are reporting the truth, disinformation agents!

You know I think ATS should make it an absolute rule that ANYONE claiming to be a professional anything ought to post their credential... otherwise your word is as good as mine... I recall Buddhasystem claiming to be a PhD for example... never showed any documents... but tore apart Ken Johnston's documents...

Funny how its always one sided

What "truth' are you reporting? Only that you, in your field are not aware of any chemtrail activities in your area of concern... that does not prove that they do not exist... nor that the military is involved...

Originally posted by Alien Abduct
You see Defcon your talking about commercial flights.
Not the Government flights that are producing the chemtrails.
Commercial flights and Government flights are two different things.
Clear enough?

Fine, so you think that the US maintains enough aircraft and ground personnel to cover the entire world with “chemtrails” on a daily basis? You think that other countries have no problem with allowing US military flights to be doing this in their airspace? How about the fact, which Weedwacker brought up, that military flights that are operating outside of restricted airspace have to file a flight plane same as commercial flights, and operate in accordance with ATC rules? Do you really think that there would not be a single Air Traffic controller who would come forward with this information? You think that the FAA would have no problem with aircraft intentionally creating a constant IFR environment that poses a potential air visibility hazard?

You think those questions through and see if you can answer them, then let me know.


[edit on 4/23/2008 by defcon5]

reply to post by defcon5


Shame that, the real people don't have a voice.....

Originally posted by defcon5
Fine, so you think that the US maintains enough aircraft and ground personnel to cover the entire world with “chemtrails” on a daily basis?

Ummm I have been in Vegas for nine years.... only saw this grid work twice so I doubt its 'every day'

You think that other countries have no problem with allowing US military flights to be doing this in their airspace?

According to the German video report... those were German military planes in that incidence... not US

How about the fact, what Weedwacker brought up, that military flights that are operating outside of restricted airspace have to file a flight plane same as commercial flights, and operate in accordance with ATC rules?

Kindly explain to me how many U2 spy planes filed "flight planes" Since when do covert operations file flight plans with any public agency?


[edit on 23-4-2008 by zorgon]