How did the terrorists know where to fly?

reply to post by smransom51


One more thing....the site you linked to shows nonsense, as the 'sensors' if the cockpit door is forced, and controllers able to 'take control'....

Absolute RUBBISH!!!!

[adding] if this were true, every time we open the cockpit door to go out and take a pee, or for the F/As to bring us food or drink, our airplane gets 'taken over' from the ground? Completely wrong, untrue and utter crap!!!

[edit on 4/3/0808 by weedwhacker]

I truly wish I had enough money to invite a few ATS posters to go take some flying lessons, and some Private Pilot Ground School courses, just to get a basic understanding of what is entailed.

It is possible that some Community Colleges may offer such courses, go check it out.

Further, if I had enough money, I would invite a select group to come fly a real, full-motion simulator. IT is possible, though very expensive, to rent Sim time. Sims are usually blocked out in two-hour sessions, since that's how airlines train...one hour for one pilot, a short break, and a second hour....OK, I know...that adds up to about 2+30, but it averages out to an hour per pilot....of course, we 'show up' about 90 minutes before, for the 'briefing'....and there's a 30 minute or so 'de-brief' after, for discussion and paperwork....and at that point, we all want to get the hell out, either back to the hotel, or to a flight home, depending on circumstnces....

But I digress....when I win the Lottery, I'll invite a few ATS'ers to come along for a Sim session...let's see, about $4000/hr, for two hours....give about 15 minutes per guest, we could accomodate 8 guests (I'd fly in the right seat) and of course the instructor/sim operator sits behind, to run the machine....

Perhaps I'm on to something here...any thoughts?

WW

[adding] I am re-thinking this, 8 guests might be too many, 6 is more workable. Three in the Sim at a time, one in the left seat, two to observe.

While three are in one session, the other three can be briefed by another instructor, so we'd need two instructors, one for each group.

Modern Sims can easily accomodate two observors...one would have to stand, and we might have to turn off the motion for safety's sake, just thinking out loud here...but if I was in the right seat, I could correct and prevent any violent motion, and the instructor can always use the 'freeze' button as well...so I think an observor would be safe standing and watching, I know I have many times....



[edit on 4/3/0808 by weedwhacker]

What about the point of the Remote Control chip in the planes. The technology exists. It would not be a stretch to imagine that these planes were remote controlled. I find it hard to believe that untrained pilots could initiate such a precise hit at 500mph without some help

reply to post by smransom51


smransome....what imaginary 'chip' could do this?????

Allow me to explain....

I have lots of experience in the airplanes we're discussing. I also build and fly model R/C airplanes, so I have knowledge there as well.

NOW....first of all, we undergo extensive training on the airplanes we fly...because of currency requirements, and senority concerns, we only fly one version at a time....some airlines combine the B757/B767 as the same, since they share a common FAA Type Rating, some break them up into separate classes, but that's a Union thing......so while a pilot may have flown every airplane in his airline's fleet, at one time or another, he/she is not cross/qualified on EVERY airplane at the same time, because it is too difficult to keep currency standards...management pilots are not exempt from this requirement, but sometimes they will be dual-qualified because they don't 'fly the line'...so all it takes is three landings every 90 days, in the model of airplane you are qualified on, and you remain 'current'. This per FAA regs, so I'm not making it up. (FAR Part 61, Airman Certification....)

BUT....when it comes to knowing how to fly, once a pilot has achieved enough experience to be hired by an airline, this pilot knows a heck of a lot more than most here on ATS who claim to know...no disrespect intended, but I see so much bad info, it needs to be pointed out!!

WW

[I posted, but wasn't finished]....I am trying to address this concept of a 'chip' in a Boeing!!! It is utter nonsense, sorry to tell you, but I have two decades of major airline experience...22 years, actually...and another 10 years, minimum, of flying before that....I started when I was 14...someone asked me if I was rich...I was just incredibly lucky to have parents who owned a Flight School...so my life didn't exactly suck....

back to this 'chip'...as I've said, I have flown thousands of hours in the B757 and B767....and there is no 'chip'. Not only because it's nonsense, but because a 'chip' would do nothing without a lot of hardware to 'take-over' to fly the airplane.

Guess what, though....the B757 and B767 can 'auto-land'. Yes, that's right! The airplanes can land themselves!! Except....there has to be a person there, to push the correct buttons at the correct time in order to make it work!! Oh, and someone has to be able to pull the Reversers, and step on the brakes....OK, there are autobrakes....but the selector switch for the AutoBrakes has to physically moved....by a pilot!!

And....although the Spoilers will deploy, upon wheel-spin-up and ground sensing, they handle hs to be 'armed' by an action by....you guessed it! A HUMAN!!!! Finally, there is NO automatic action involved with the Reversers.....this needs HUMAN intervention, HUMAN interaction.......

Back to the 'auto-land' concept. Yup, they can....but it's not just one button, it requires quite a lot, actually, and I won't waste time here describing the process. I'll just say, if you don't klnow how to tune in the Localizer (must be done by....yup! A HUMAN) then you won't auto-land.....

Best, WW


[edit on 4/3/0808 by weedwhacker]

Finally....this has been a very interesting thread, and I'm waiting to see what some say about my idea of a Simulator event, for say, six ATS members....and I guess I won't be able to pay the way for all, but perhaps we can come to a price??

ANYway, it seems the OP of this thread is banned. Doesn't mean the thread has to be closed, I just thought it interesting to note....

Back to the Sim idea.

I am serious, any takers?? I have creds, so it would be possible to negotiate time in a Sim, somewhere here in the USA...I mean, they would know that we're not terrorists, just curious for truth!!

Major airlines, and their Training centers: AA, DFW. CO, IAH. NW, MSP. UA, DEN. US...PHX? (after the merger, not sure...maybe PHL?)

AA has B737, B757, B767 and B777. CO has all of the above. NW, MD80, B757, B747. UA...B737, B757, B767, B747 US...B737, B757, B767

(Iignored the Airbus products, at various airlines ....CO has none... and AA has only a few old ones....)

So, wanna get together....??? I vote for Houston, since it's fairly central, and I think I hve some pull there....but MSP is kinda central too,,,as is DFW...so the ball is in the air.....

Best, WW

All commercial airliners at that time were equipped with Differential GPS coupled witht the auto pilot. An aviation GPS database included all aviation waypoints, airports, major landmarks and any lat/long you chose to enter. At that time the military was still degrading civilian GPS signals, even with that it would take you within 100' of a lat/long. Most people could accomplish it with minimal training

Again, for anyone who stumbles across this thread, since it is still active on the ATS home page....

I could put you in a simulator, and in ten minutes teach you how to use the computer on a B757 or B767 to enter your destination, and show you how it comes up on the 'screen' in front of you....and if you had a little bit of flight training....just some, doesn't mean you had to be good at it, but if you had the basics, the knowledge....you could fly an airplane into a building, in daylight and clear weather.

BUT, we would not waste time in the SIM, we would brief first, using the educational tools that all airline pilots use PRIOR to getting into the Sim, because the Sim is expensive to operate, and all training there is done by syllabus....

OK...going off-topic, prolly....

WW

reply to post by NSDQ


NSDQ....ummm....I was flying for a Major at 'that time' and I can tell you that we DID NOT....let me repeat....DID NOT have GPS updating to the IRS on all the airplanes!!!!

Please allow me to repeat.....in 2001 WE DID NOT HAVE GPS updating on all of our airplanes!!!!

I am trying to be clear here, sorry for shouting.....but I see stuff that is ablatant lie, and I know different.....I have to point it out!

WW

Here is remote chip that got Boeing in trouble (GyroScopic Remote Chip)

www.systron.com...

reply to post by smransom51


smransom.....the link you provided is simply the 'laser-ring' component to the system I have talked about already.

In the old days, we had actual, physical gyroscopes, they had to 'spool up' as part of the INS (Inertial Navigaton System) initialization process.

THEN, wonder of wonders, NO MOVING PARTS, we get the Laser Ring Gyro...OK, one moving part, but that's a LASER moving....not only more accurate, but easier to maintain!!!!!

Again....three of these devices, in three different orientations....and everything they 'feel', in the case of the airplane's movement, is recorded and transmitted to the computers to interpret.....

Come on, read the full site, and learn!!! Please....

WW

(1) If it happened this way prisonplanet.com... , then home-ing signals would've been placed in the towers.

(2) Bob Bowman, the former head of the Starwars missile program www.prisonplanet.com... , said: I could name a suspect, an architect behind the 9/11 World Trade Center attacks. If I had to narrow it down to one person, I think my prime suspect would be Dick Cheney. The exercises that went on that morning simulating the exact thing that was happening confused people in FAA and NORAD. They didn’t know what was real and what was the exercise. The people who planned and carried out those exercises should be investigated. ~ Bob Bowman, Dem. Can. FL Dist. 15

Bob & Dick were two friends who presented Starwars to Reagan. Bob ran for President several years ago. He's now running for Congress and had a pretty good platform. I talked to Bob and said the only thing missing from his platform were statements criticizing the Fed. He said, he knew that. I felt he felt it was too dangerous for him to talk about.

I tend to agree, because Cheney represents Halliburton which was founded and is owned by the international interlocking dynastic banking families that own the Fed www.abovetopsecret.com...)

The bigger the lie the easier it is to sell it to the people. I believe Hitler said that.

911 had been planned for years. Plenty of time to install remote capabilities.
www.truedemocracy.net...

Note:
September 11th 1990 Bush senior announced to Congress for the first time speaking about a New World Order.
September 11th 1991 Bush senior again talks to Congress about a New World Order.
Google Rebuilding America's defences where the neocons wrote in order to achieve world status it will take along time unless we have an event like a New Pearl Harbor.
May 1st 2001 Chaney took the shootdown powers from the generals and controll of all drills on 911.
June 1st 2001 Pilots could no longer take a gun on board to keep it in a safe box.
A crazy man bought the lease on the WTC for 99 years knowing full well that those building were all but condemned for the asbestos or he knew he would collect on insurance. He did and now he is trying for another 12 billion.

Any pilot that has flown the skys with passengers will not give up their seat to some skinney little bastards. Don't you think that at least one pilot could have held their ground in a tried takeover?

Anyone who can't see our government was a part of this attack is an idiot!

Originally posted by Damien_Hell
reply to post by mthalman

 

Your stupid, planes still use pilots, therefore they aren't remote controlled, a remote controlled plane wouldn't have a cockpit, there would be no need, and a quick google search shows that both those planes, still have cockpits

Damien Hell
What are you talking about? I just got done saying that commercial planes don't come off the lot with R/C capabilities. Once again 767s and 757's are not remote control capable when they leave Boeing. Learn how to read before you fire back with a wrong response!

since you obviously don't fly you put your destination in your gps and the plane does a great job what's the freakin mystery some folks are so busy being scared you can't get anything done from the fear end of life why can't you feel anything else anymore? ever wonder about that?
some words of wisdom from albert Einstein
"the most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious> It is the fundemental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. Whoever does not know it and can no longer wonder is as good as dead and his eyes are dimmed"

Originally posted by jondular
The bigger the lie the easier it is to sell it to the people. I believe Hitler said that.

911 had been planned for years. Plenty of time to install remote capabilities.
www.truedemocracy.net...

Note:
September 11th 1990 Bush senior announced to Congress for the first time speaking about a New World Order.
September 11th 1991 Bush senior again talks to Congress about a New World Order.
Google Rebuilding America's defences where the neocons wrote in order to achieve world status it will take along time unless we have an event like a New Pearl Harbor.
May 1st 2001 Chaney took the shootdown powers from the generals and controll of all drills on 911.
June 1st 2001 Pilots could no longer take a gun on board to keep it in a safe box.
A crazy man bought the lease on the WTC for 99 years knowing full well that those building were all but condemned for the asbestos or he knew he would collect on insurance. He did and now he is trying for another 12 billion.

Any pilot that has flown the skys with passengers will not give up their seat to some skinney little bastards. Don't you think that at least one pilot could have held their ground in a tried takeover?

Anyone who can't see our government was a part of this attack is an idiot!

1990 Bush #1 referring to new world order, d/t the collapse of the Soviet Union.
1991 Bush #1 referring to new world order, d/t we have a new threat (terrorism) one which is not as obvious as the former Soviet Union.

A pilot would not willingly give up his/her plane. But with a slashed neck, they didn't have much say in the issue!

And pilots can carry weapons on board, they just have to take a short class. Case in point just recently some pilot somehow discharged his .40 cal and put a hole through the cockpit.

And finally, in 2001 we where caught with our pants down, simple as that. Norad was looking outward, we had not rehearsed this scenario, like the years of rehearsing for a Nuke war. It was chaos, we didn't know what kind of attack would follow after the initial attacks. So U.S. Strategic Command had to assume the possibility of a Nuke attack and this new kind of attack as well, all within a relatively short time frame and plan solutions. You can bet that we are far better prepared for this kind of thing now. We now have the E4's and E6's and some of the RC-135's in the air almost constantly.

Not everything in this world is a conspiracy! Even the JFK assassination would probably not be a conspiracy if we had as many cameras and videos and viewers as we did on 9/11

[edit on 4-4-2008 by mthalman]

reply to post by NSDQ

*Bangs head on wall*

Did you read the thread? It is NOT just a simple GPS system and it would probably require some reading to understand how to use it.

reply to post by jondular


WOW, I didn't even get the second sentence before I spotted Bull #.

Two of the aircraft exceeded their software limits on 911. The Boeing 757 and 767 are equipped with fully autonomous flight capability, they are the only two Boeing commuter aircraft capable of fully autonomous flight. They can be programmed to take off, fly to a destination and land, completely without a pilot at the controls.

First sentence, Boeing 757 and Boeing 767 DO NOT HAVE SOFTWARE LIMITS.

Second / third sentence - NO, it CANNOT. And it isn't the only Boeing aircraft with avionics similar to the 767.

Jesus christ I've never seen such blatant BS before. Listen, do not EVER listen to that writer, EVER AGAIN.

With terrorism in mind. It is very easy to find something as big as the WTC or the Pentagon from the air during the day. It is as simple as having a street map and a one dollar compass. The best way is to have a simple hiking GPS. All you need to know is the GPS coordinates of anything and set it to go to it. The $70 gps will actually point an arrow towards it. Also any camel jockie or hunter can tell you direction by the time and sun. I could go on all daywith ways to find but the bottom line is no one in a plane ever needs to even have a radio, radar, compass...you need nothing to take off, fly and land.

What "Terrorists" are you referring to?, I have seen no credible evidence of any so-called "Terrorist Hijackers" flying on flights' 11, 93, 77, and 175.

Sorry if this has already been answered, but can a 757/767 even travel at 500+ mph at the altitude necessary to hit the WTS or the Pentagon?

Boeing 767 Family Specs

Boeing 757 Family Specs

I mean the boeing site says they have a cruising speed of around 530mph but that is at 35000 ft. I would think the lower the elevation the more air pressure you'd encounter therefore more friction.

Just asking to put my mind at ease.....