Girl died as parents prayed instead of seeking help

Originally posted by Rockpuck

Originally posted by oLDWoRLDDiSoRDeR
Put them in jail on through away the key. This is flat out murder. At the very least negligent homicide.
These people make me sick . Its one thing to deny treatment for yourself as an adult that can make that choice . But to FORCE it on a child. Just on "Faith"? . Thats just wrong .

[edit on 26-3-2008 by oLDWoRLDDiSoRDeR]

Likewise, forcing faith, you cannot force faith in medicine.

Stupid?

Yes.

its insane.

But, it is these people faith, and the government has no right to tell people that they HAVE to accept medical attention.

30 days and no one noticed her missing? Not even from school? Unless she was homeschooled.. either way, a religious family who does not want to recieve conventional medication, should not have to.

That's not a good story at all and it's very sad. The other three children need to be taken away from them and they need to be thrown in jail. Correct me if I am wrong, but don't the Mormons have a similar way of thinking?

Originally posted by cleggy88
Do you have a link to the proof that prayer helps? Would be an interesting read.

Actually, God is not going to completely reveal himself to you until he returns. What the parents did was idiotic and should have their other three children taken away from them so they can be cared for.

Prayer does work, just not instantaneously. I think what the parents did was try and force or demand that God perform a miracle. It just doesn't work that way, this is the physical world and the devil deals the cards. You have to remember that God put us here for a reason and that we are only here for a short "time" comared to eternity. That little girl is in a much better place now and she is well aware of the evil that takes place here in the devils domain. God is in complete control and though make no mistake about it. This is the here today gone tomorrow world that we are living in and today isn't even a guarentee.

Glory be to God, our lord and savior Jesus Christ. He not only saved our souls but he lead by example. The real world and the real home is with Jesus, not here with the dark prince. Do you not see that we are all witnesses to what happened with this little girl? Or any of the other bad things in the world that are associated with pain? This is what we are here for. God needs friends and he does not want us to go through pain but he does not want to lose any more of his friends like he did before. There is no pain in heaven so how can you experience it and be aware of the evil that exists?

Originally posted by Damocles
the thing about prayer and health is that to a certain degree the persons mindset can help them fight illness.

if they believe that praying will help then it just may...

its that whole will to live/fight

granted....due to my own battles for the last 6 years ive come to my own conclusions.

1. god exists
2. he's pissed at me for some reason

If you ever find out why, let me know - God seems to be pissed at me too. I'm trying my best - but oh well, you can't please everybody.

Originally posted by cleggy88
Hope this thread is still going next week when I get back, going to the Ukraine to do some charity work with the family. Wish me luck!

Good luck! Be careful - take care!

Not everyone believes in the paradigm of western medicine.
Not every illness should be cured.
The strong are to survive.
The weak are to die.

Sri Oracle

Threadfall
posted on 26-3-2008 @ 10:16 PM

I can't say I completely disagree with your sentiments, but I have to ask a question. "Not every illness should be cured."? What does that mean? What illnesses in your opinion should not be cured? If you, or your children, had a severe--possibly deadly--case of pneumonia would you not seek a cure because it is not meant to be cured? In the eyes of nature a human made cure to ANY disease in unnatural. Are you saying that illness is one of nature's barometers that determines whether one is worthy of living or not? Strength and weakness is measured in much more than physical vigor.

I am saying that when native americans bred corn... they did not seek to save the cultivars with small kernels; they put their limited energy and resources into the tall growing varieties with large and sweet cobs.

And today... you can pick up a pete's seed catalog, and because of their sacrifice... order all the sweet corn seed your heart desires to grow in your fields and feed your family. The good genes were passed on to the next generation; the bad genes lost.

Whoa... thats heavy... we're talking about living, breathing children... not sweet corn.

I'm 29 years old. Celibate.... my wife and I choose (for now) not to have children.

Both of our fathers had blood disorders; they were treated with western medicine... and stayed alive long enough to have children: Us.

Last year, at the ripe age of 50, my wife's father, consuming a strong daily dose of 160mg of oxycotin, living a life in and out of the hospital; having replaced both knees, both shoulders, and an elbow, and getting regular shots of clotting factor to stop his ever spreading bruises and the flowing of petty nicks caused by daily life.... died the same haemophiliac he was born. Bleeding out of every orifice... from the eyes to the toe nails. The western ER doctors, after he was brain dead, were still pumping pints of blood into him as fast as he was pumping them back out; machines running his heart and lungs. They finally stopped at the request of his wife; my mother-in-law. I'm sure they would have gladly continued the "therapy" at $10k/hour.

A life of suffering... From the time I met him he spent most of the time in the chair; or hobbling to the next place to sit down.

But he was kept alive long enough by synthetic western medicine to breed and pass on a carrier; my love.

As carriers, the wife and I have a 50-50 shot of producing a child with the same deadly blood disorder, with the same life of suffering. One might say we "shouldn't" breed... though, aside from the deadly recessive genes we carry, we are both healthy, strong, spiritual, and intelligent. We also have a 50-50 chance of producing a healthy, non-carrier child.

So we've made this pact. We have acreage... far off in the middle of nowhere... and if we ever do decide to start a family... our child will be born in a clawfoot bath tub in the woods.

And if he's bleeding... he will bleed to death in that tub, and get buried not far away without mention to the western authorities, the media, or you. I'll bow my head in prayer.

Our children will not face a life of suffering.
Our grandchildren will not face the choice now before us.
Our healthy babies will live on and pass clean genes to their children and grandchildren.

and the haemophiliac gene imposed by royal inbreeding many generations past, will be pruned off this go around.

Prolonging life is not equivalent to easing suffering; in some ways it adds to the suffering.

My neighbours dog had a litter last week. 9 pups. The last 3 out looked weak at birth. Soon, momma wouldn't allow them to nurse. Within a week, they died. The other 6 are healthy and vibrant. THE MOTHER MADE A CHOICE. The three weak pups are now buried under a peach tree... the Great Cycle lives on.

Every parent is morally responsible for their own actions in raising their brood before God.

Originally posted by Sri Oracle

Do you really want to live in a society of mandatory medicine?

Originally posted by Rubber Bullet

Do you really want to live in a society where independent human beings are FORCED to DIE from CURABLE diseases because of morons like YOU with criminal negligence?

INSULIN IS NOT A CURE...

any more than blood clotting injections are a cure.

If you want a cure... see my post page 7.

Insulin is a way to inject 150 billion dollars every year into the pharmaceutical industry, easing symptoms, while encouraging societal dependence and poor habits, rather than actually curing anything.... all while allowing people with genetically disabled pancreases to reach breeding age so that their children too can become another slave to the every growing industry. They are encouraging, and ultimately breeding, you to be sick and dependant; enjoy your energy bar and coke for lunch... they make money on the poison too, not just the remedy.

"...thin seedlings, select healthy cultivars to transfer to the garden..."

unplugged,

Sri Oracle



'Wonder how many plastic insulin needles are floating in that pacific gyre?
I remember plenty washing up on the New Jersey shore when I was a kid.



[edit on 31-3-2008 by Sri Oracle]

reply to post by Sri Oracle


While we may differ of opinion in certain areas I believe your last post was superb. Gave you a star.

reply to post by Sri Oracle


Kudos to you, kudos.

Originally posted by Sri Oracle

Not everyone believes in the paradigm of western medicine.
Not every illness should be cured.
The strong are to survive.
The weak are to die.

I personally think you are absolutely right! I've been trying to get ppl to slow down in here and think beyond the drama. Everybodies an expert when it comes to someone elses kid. The problem with that is they aren't the ones who have to make the final decision when you're walking the razors edge.

INSULIN IS NOT A CURE...

any more than blood clotting injections are a cure.



There is no cure for diabetes, and personally I don't think they want to find one either. Why find a cure for a disease that's making the doctors, surgeons, and Rx's rich?

Ok, I'm just repeating what you've already said, sorry about that, but it's interesting to me how so many want to hang em from the highest tree when they weren't there and don't really know the circumstances on the date in question. As a parent that action wouldn't have been my choice, but then again, I've made a lot of choices with my children that others have disagreed with.

There are parents out there who don't seem to have what it takes to raise a child, and maybe these ppl are that kind, but how does one know unless you're there?

I'm not a Christian, and the practices of Christianity sometimes really confuse me, but then again I'm sure my religion confuses them too. lol My point is, just because I may not agree with their faith and/or practices doesn't mean that they were wrong.

Originally posted by Straighten Arrow

Prayer does work, just not instantaneously.

Nope. Every single trial into whether praying helps shows categorically that it is exactly as effective as doing nothing.

reply to post by enchantress62


Excellent post enchantress. I am in agreement with you on this one.

nevermind... don't want to derail.

O

[edit on 31-3-2008 by Sri Oracle]

Originally posted by Sri Oracle
nevermind... don't want to derail.

O

[edit on 31-3-2008 by Sri Oracle]

I'm sooo curious.... what could have possibly caused you to hold back I wonder?

Wow, a lot of interest in this thread, and a lot of catching up for me. Everyone forgive me, but I'm not going to individually address every individual.

On the subject of paying for medical care, I have driven all over this great land. In my travels I have met more people than I can remember. In talking with these people I have realized that, in many many ways, the way things work varies quite a bit from one area to the next. Here, in the deep South, I was raised under the impression that anyone in desperate need of care could go to the local hospital and be cared for, regardless of their ability to pay. That is true. But in other areas, I am told by the natives that it is not that way; either the hospital will not accept anyone in need of care, or the only one that will is so far away the ambulances won't take you unless you can pay up front.

It should also be noted that neither of these parents were mentioned as having medical knowledge or experience. Even if they could have taken her to get guaranteed treatment, did they know it would be given? I can see where the girl could have been taken into a hospital earlier on, when she was not in imminent danger, and they being told she would not be seen without insurance. Would not a reasonable person then conclude there was no need to take her when she was in worse shape?

Also, they had three other children. What would have happened to them should the parents be saddled with a $100,000 bill? Would all of their children go hungry?

I don't think we can completely rule out the matter of payment as having an impact, even if it truth there were a way. A path has no travelers if it is hidden.

reply to post by cleggy88

Best wishes on your journey. I look forward to your return.

reply to post by Damocles and post by Maxmars

Off topic, but all forgive me; this MUST be said. God is definitely NOT angry with either of you. Feel free to U2U me if you want Biblical proof, or need to talk about it.

reply to post by Sri Oracle

I stand in awe of you. Absolutely amazing post. Brilliant. Well done.

"Insulin is not a cure." I cannot believe I missed that point.

reply to post by dave420

Every single trial into whether praying helps shows categorically that it is exactly as effective as doing nothing.

That is true only if you meant 'scientific trials'. Anecdotal or personal experience trials cannot be proven unless they are recorded. My personal experiences with doctorless healing are not recorded save in my memory, so you are free to believe them or not. A million such trials would still not constitute proof in the eyes of science.

But the very nature of prayer makes it impossible to reproduce on demand. Therefore your conclusion is flawed. There is no way to prove or disprove the effectiveness of prayer.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck
What would have happened to them should the parents be saddled with a $100,000 bill? Would all of their children go hungry?

$100,000 bill? Are you serious? The girl most likely needed some insulin, not brain surgery AND a heart transplant, lol.

Originally posted by enchantress62
[My point is, just because I may not agree with their faith and/or practices doesn't mean that they were wrong.

A quote from another ATS member:

and yes, denying children basic knowledge is a form of abuse.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

Originally posted by enchantress62
[My point is, just because I may not agree with their faith and/or practices doesn't mean that they were wrong.

A quote from another ATS member:

and yes, denying children basic knowledge is a form of abuse.

Ok, interesting statement, and interesting that you chose to apply it to this scenerio. Let me just give you a little insight into what these ppl might have been going through.

My sister was diagnosed with type I diabetes at the age of 11 yrs (Juvanile diabetes) Prior to that diagnosis she was a thriving preteen with a few symptoms, headaches, nausia, chronic thirst, and underweight. However, she ran around with the rest of the kids in the neighborhood, in fact, she was revered as one of the best game players on our block. After being diagnosed she started to get depressed. This was back in the 60's and in those days kids made fun of you if you had anything that they thought of as abnormal. She was lucky though, my parents had money and my Dad was in the Army so she received the best medical attention that money could buy.

Here's what their money bought her. Repeated trips to the hospital, daily injections, a strict diet, social isolation, blood sugar levels that bounced from very high to very low. both bacterial and yeast infections that sometimes raged out of control. She lived to the ripe old age of 29 and in the last five years of her life she was blind, going through kidney failure, and had chronic ulcerations on both feet. When she finally went into a coma after years of pain, lonelyness, and suffering, want to know what was the greatest comfort for my family? She died with her feet still attached. That was her greatest fear, that she would loose her feet. They were rotting off her body, but they were still there, and my family was grateful in the end that she at least had that.

In our society we watch ppl with diabetes living seemingly normal lives. The one's we see look healthy enough, they do what the rest of us do mostly, and a lot of diabetics are able to control it with diet and glucose monitoring, but I'm here to tell you this is a horrible disease. It's a slow torture that rots your body from the inside out.

I read the article, and I'll have to go back and read it again, to refresh my memory, but I didn't see anything in it the first time, that indicated the parents knew this child had diabetes prior to her getting sick. When my sister was finally diagnosed the doctors told my mother that from the tests they had run she had most likely had the disease for several years and the disease had already caused some damage to her kidneys. Interestingly my parents had taken her to the doctors many times for her complants of chronic headaches, weight loss, and chronic thrist, but none of them had checked her out for diabetes.

Now here's another eye opening tid bit. I've known for the last 5 yrs that I have type II diabetes. When the symptoms first began I went to my doctor, told him about my family history, which is extensive, and he ran the appropriate tests. Nothing! No disease! Over the next 3 yrs I sought the opinions of several doctors, several times, each did the tests and each time they were negative. Frustrated, I bought my own glucometer and began checking my blood sugars 3 times a day, and any time I felt weak or dizzy, excessively thirsty, etc... I kept a log of my findings and low and behold my blood sugars were as high as 365 and as low as 23. I brought my findings to my doctor and he ran several tests. Finally the disease reared it's ugly head! The story doesn't end there, but this is where I'll end it. My point in telling you all this is that none of us can judge a situation like this by a few words in a news article, and none of us should be pointing fingers and crying abuse without walking a mile in the other guys shoes!


By the way, my sister "KNEW" from day 1 what to expect. She was well informed about this disease and well educated on how to manage it. It didn't save her, or make her life easier.

Originally posted by depth om
They should've understood God put those medical workers where they are for a reason, and used this means to an end, but they took it upon themselves to accomplish works (healing), through acts (praying). Too bad.

reminds me of the story of Moses and Joshua, nice choice

I remember a case like this a few years ago where a teen had a serious condition, possibly cancer, but would not seek medical help because of his (and his family's) religious convictions. Child Protective Services or a similar agency tried to compel him to be treated, and a legal battle ensued, eventually, if memory serves, the teen was forced to get treated.

In this case the opposite seems to have happened. Poor girl. Just goes to show you that people will believe anything, if left to their own devices will pervert and abuse their own freedoms, and can't be trusted with religion. I have no faith in mankind.