Friction After Patrols in Phoenix Immigrant Area

Originally posted by 19DCW71
If we followed our natural laws (we are animals after all) then we would be killing anything to eat and protect and it would be natural and done just because of difference in race. Do you see lions and hyenas and cape buffalo being civil.They're governed by natural law. Only we become civilized through domestication...

I guess I should have been more clear, that is not what I meant by 'natural laws'. We are not lions we have our own way of controlling our actions.
I don't believe we became 'civilised' because someone decided they wanted more and acted on their greed, which eventually became the system we live under. We are Humans with brains we don't need restrictive laws to tell us what's right and wrong.

Also if it was the system that made us 'civilised' then we don't need it anymore, it's supposedly done its job. But if you call sending young men to die for a few wealthy people at the top 'civilised' then we disagree.

What I mean by 'natural laws', like I said, live your life as you wish doing NO harm to others. It's not that hard to do, and while people keep saying saying it's not possible then it isn't. What happened to 'you can do anything'? You have to have the attitude that it can be done and it will. Problem is this system benefits the selfish and the paranoid. The ones that call people 'hippies' or 'liberal nut-jobs' for standing up and daring to suggest a different way of thinking about life.

BTW you used the word Anarchy incorrectly, I think you meant chaos? Anarchy does not mean chaos. Read up on the Spanish revolution of 1936 and what the Anarchists did for 2 years free of government. The country did not fall into chaos because of a lack of government. In fact the working people, mainly farmers, organised and governed themselves, as it should be done. It was the fascists that created the chaos and the war that eventually broke down the Anarchist organisation, and put in a fascist government.

The reason people can't cooperate now is because the system we live under conditions us from child birth to be super competitive and to see other Humans as commodities they can make money from, rather than someone to love and respect.

If we didn't have this unfair system you wouldn't have to have laws to keep you from robbing a bank. We don't need banks they are a scam to control you and make more money off you. Everywhere you turn someone is making money off your back. Parasites!

No we don't need to be managed, we are quit capable of doing that ourselves. Do you put yourself in that same category? Do you think you need managing? I sure the hell don't. Are you an animal, or just everyone else? Will you become dangerous and out of control without a government and its laws, or just everyone else?
It's all about how you've been conditioned to think this way, if you look through history you can clearly see us lowly Humans are quit capable of organising and cooperating without a centralised government with restrictive laws.

I don't agree about the smarter we get the more dangerous we become, it all depends on what we're being taught doesn't it? I really don't think we are very smart at all if we can't even get along with each other and our priorities are all wrong. It's more like a bunch of immature kids in a candy store. The candy store being technology that we use for destruction and personal gain rather than for the good of all.

Why do you think fossil fuel was not replaced by a cleaner safer cheaper energy years ago? Because they can suck more cash out of us with fossil fuels. That's just one example of how the system is not set up to benefit you and me, it's set up to benefit the few at the top, and maybe some at the bottom get lucky.

As a society we have been forced into this system, but it started so long ago and developed slowly over time people have a hard time imagining an alternative. All alternatives are suppressed or demonised, anarchism is a good example.

[edit on 23/3/2008 by ANOK]

Originally posted by freedomataprice
What troubles me about this situation is they were able to find civilian volunteers to help.

Good on them! It's nice to know that some people still care about the laws of the United States.

Originally posted by freedomataprice
I know some people on here have issuse with immigrants in the US, but I don't because I know my ancesters were immigrants.

Note: Those were illegal immigrants - unless you're ancestors were "illegal immigrants" (don't throw that idiotic trash out that "all white Americans are illegal immigrants", as I do not believe any Native American tribe had Immigration Laws, Naturalization Laws, defined borders...)

Originally posted by freedomataprice
What will common citizens do to help when Martial Law is instated?

Some, still loyal to the Government, will help out - though I predict that most would simply get on with their lives:

Contrast it with "civilian collaboration" anywhere - like Russia during the Communist Revolution and resultant Civil War, Nazi Germany etc though some will help the leading government, most people simply want to get on with their lives.

reply to post by ANOK

I personally don't feel need for law or our overnment and believe me,I know they're corrupt.They're the biggest source of organized crime there ever will be.I myself don't have a problem being civil and can go about my business honestly and would only bring harm to someone in defense of my family.That is how I live in this modern day world when everyone else is out to better themselves at your expense.

Funny,as i finished writing those words it settled in.The fact that this is what they where taught and why they act like that. It was bred into them since birth so,yeah.

Only problem is we would basically have to start a whole new country.We would have to get rid of our government (which aren't leaving) and start anew. It will collapse one day.Look at the Romans.Then is the only chance to start new.

Unfortunately in the state of things under our current system we can't have all people coming here illegally because to be honest it has had a major impact on my life.I can only imagine everyone elses stories.They are sucking us dry.I'm in construction so I have been affected for years. My wife's a nurse and you wouldn't believe the stories I hear from her. If I wasn't civilized and rational it would almost make you hate an entire people.

Thanks for the correction about anarchy.chaos even though we could definately use a little anarchy.The smarter more dangerous. I state that because knowledge is what puts a person in power positions. Once there no matter how good their intentions are,people become corrupt when they feel power.It starts small then engulfs their souls.They feel like gods.

It's definately a bugged out situation,life in general.Too many people whith different ideals and useless beliefs.

Fact of the matter is this. Simplicity.We need only food, water and shelter. Do we really need 52 plasmas and a $5,000 pc,blinging rims. We can't sustain this forever and nature will take back and we will start over.But as for now,I personally don't want illegal people here which affects my life. My ancestors came here legally through ellis island,worked and payed taxes. So let them.

Overall though i have to agree with you. If you find a way to start over,don't hesitate to u2u me because I'll be the first in line for change.Our officials should honestly be hung and beaten like pinatas.

Originally posted by freedomataprice

I know some people on here have issuse with immigrants in the US, but I don't because I know my ancesters were immigrants.

The difference is (I assume) your ancestors came here legally and followed legal requirements to achieve citizenship. I have no problem with immigrants, I have a problem with anyone who skirts the law as far as coming. If you have no interest in becoming American, including but not limited to it's legal requirements, get the F*** out.

Originally posted by freedomataprice
reply to post by TXMACHINEGUNDLR

 

Again NOT the issue I wanted to discuss.

My issue is with a civilian posse!!

Please read my original post and the links.

Thanks for the reply.

Fair enough. To this point, again, this is America. Aside from any government it is EVERY citizens right (responsibility I dare say?) to defend the American way of life. You may not like it, and you can certainly question the motives (you have the right, again because this is America), but they do have the right to do it. Sure you may get racists with an agenda but you may have honest citizens trying to defend America. Is it not its own form of prejudice to assume this group was made up of the former? Until you sit down and talk to the participants to get an idea of their intentions and motivations how can you assume this "posse" is a negative entity or has nefarious intentions?

I grew up in a not so nice part of Chicago and Latino gangs were a big problem. Now if I joined a citizen brigade to clean up the crime in my neighborhood guess what, 90% of crime in that area is purpetrated by the latino population. Does the fact that we arrest a whole lot of Latino's make me racist? No more than if 90% of crime was committed by caucasians and we end up arresting a lot of caucasians. In Arizona they don't have a big problem with Canadian border jumpers so guess who's going to get deported because they're here illegally. That's right, Mexicans. Doesn't mean any of the individuals involved have a problem with Mexicans, it just means that the majority of people that are in Arizona illegally are Mexican.

But I digress, I see no problem with citizens addressing a problem in their community.

reply to post by 19DCW71


Good reply and I do understand and agree with most of what you're saying.

But the one thing I'm trying to get people to realise is you DO have the power to change the way the system is. The government seems all powerful but that's only because we give them and allow them that power. They cannot rule without our consent.

But also I don't advocate insurrection without education. Those in power will only be replaced by others who, like you correctly pointed out, will become drunk with power. This is why I see anything but SELF governance as a crime against Humanity.
We shouldn't get rid of the government we should just live independently of it until their usefulness becomes unnecessary and the institution dies its own death. It can be done, and there is historical and present precedence of it.
Voting legitimises them but changes nothing, just another part of the illusion that we have control over them. Yeah busting your ass for 20 yrs to just feed yourself and your family while government wastes your money with its death machine.
There is enough wealth and resources for everyone on planet Earth to be independent of any 'system' that leeches from it. But in this system the wealth and resources are controlled of the few who manipulate it for the benefit of themselves. While our brothers and sisters die horrible deaths, or are maimed for life, to further agendas or clean up messes created by the government and it's system of control.

This is why there is a problem of illegal immigration, it has nothing to do with Mexican migrant workers who are just trying to feed themselves and their families. Isn't feeding your family an 'American Value'?

Ok, so the main thrust of this argument would seem (to me) to be the legality of the issue. To clarify, I'm from the Uk, where laws may be different... however, the main issue would be the removal of ILLEGAL immigrants, therefore this is an issue for LEGAL authorities. It would seem that gathering/recruiting a group of civilian/non-legal/ad-hoc citizens to aid with the reparation or rounding-up of non-nationals is: a) against the spirit of a constitution that guarantees the rights of citizens to freedom from inappropriate measures of the state b) for such a delicate task of removing aforementioned "Illegal" (my emphasis) immigrants should be governed at the highest standards, by trained professionals. Therefore, whether morally right or wrong, to conduct a purging of "Illegal immigrants" by any other than a body of non-professional/trained/legally appointed "officials" would seemingly be a case that does not stand up, morally or legally - think nazi Germany anyone...

Here, I will stand on my own personal morality - I do not beleive that anyone ESPECIALLY a white English/British?American citizen can particulaarly claim to have any indigenous right to any land of the continent they are in... we (myself) are all products of bloodlines that have a great diversity of differing races in them, most often due to the violent, expansionist traits of our forefathers

This seems just a step or so away from lynch-mobs and the hideous cruelty of nazism (small N). If we're to hold ourselves as noble or true then we should be able to conduct ourselves at a level of legality/morality that is unquestionable.

reply to post by ANOK

No doubt brother. I agree with all your points.I have made friends with some of these illegals on jobs and many are every nice guys.Hard to understand but nice.Yet many are nothing more than criminals fleeing their country for reasons unknown and if we don't do background checks we don't know this.I had some illegal,strung out walk up to me at home depot with a steak knife. Lucky I'm always aware because before he was in a cars distance to me I turned around with a 14 inch Cold Steel blade gleaming in the sun and said what's up? He stopped in his tracks and hid the knife behind his leg and asked if I needed him to work.Dude was trying to play me for a fool.Imagine my wife and kids going there for something.
I have never and will never vote for some schlup and would never let my kids join the military. I have total respect for them but my kids aint dying for someone else greedy ideals.I went to join the marines when I was 17 and they wouldn't accept me beacause I had no diploma.17 in great shape ready to be molded into a death machine and rejected by my own country.I get a kick out of the fact they were/are accepting illegal immigrants into the military in return for citizenship.I read it on an ATS post months ago with links.Government is losing there grip and getting desperate.Crazy stuff I tell ya.More I think about it the self governing sounds right.

People who do not live and work in the United States have no business voicing an opinion in this thread. I live in Arizona and am sick and tired of paying the highest car insurance in the nation because we are only 40 minutes from Mexico. Each and every day the news has another story of another illegal immigrant who raped, killed, kidnapped, or burgled. Usually when caught they flee back to Mexico and return to do it again. Sure illegals want a better life, they just don't want to work a legal job to pay for it. Just the other day my cousins wifes car was stolen and the cops reply was "Its probably in Mexico by now." I do not accept this and my fellow citizens to not have to accept it. I challenge anyone who is complaining about the immigration issue in the United States, who is not a citizen here to write to your own government and ask them to accept all the undocumented aliens that my country will not. Put the shoe on the other foot and see how it fits!
.

People who do not live and work in the United States have no business voicing an opinion in this thread. I live in Arizona and am sick and tired of paying the highest car insurance in the nation because we are only 40 minutes from Mexico. Each and every day the news has another story of another illegal immigrant who raped, killed, kidnapped, or burgled. Usually when caught they flee back to Mexico and return to do it again. Sure illegals want a better life, they just don't want to work a legal job to pay for it. Just the other day my cousins wifes car was stolen and the cops reply was "Its probably in Mexico by now." I do not accept this and my fellow citizens to not have to accept it. I challenge anyone who is complaining about the immigration issue in the United States, who is not a citizen here to write to your own government and ask them to accept all the undocumented aliens that my country will not. Put the shoe on the other foot and see how it fits!
.

No country in the world accepts undocumented immigrants. Why single out the United States. Complain about Russia, Japan, France, Saudi Arabia, they are all the same when it comes to UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS. NOBODY WANTS THEM!!

reply to post by jokei

I had nothing to do with pre history so I am not to blame.I was born in America and raised and held to American heritage.While I agree that it should be taken care of legally,everyone turns a blind eye.Don't you think if the government wasn't benefitting from this they would've easily rounded them up and deported them. As for the constitution. My constitutional rights are being raped daily.

Section 4 - Republican government

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion.

This is only one point. I could give you a bunch like workers comp cases as an employer and I'm not a business.Considering I'm American born in this country I think I should have rights before him.Am i wrong? I don't feel so.But if this corrupt country did what they were supposed to do we would'nt be in this situation.Why do they have all the agencies? So on can put it off and blame the next.All they're doing is milking us for all the money.Another valid point of why we don't need them.They're absolutely useless.

reply to post by groingrinder

Nicely put my Fellow American.Time for our Gov to step up to the plate and stop dodging bullets.How much can we take before it truly is out of control?It's real bad here in NY, I can only imagine what's going on by you.

Originally posted by freedomataprice
reply to post by TXMACHINEGUNDLR

 

Again NOT the issue I wanted to discuss.

My issue is with a civilian posse!!

Please read my original post and the links.

Thanks for the reply.

A 'civilian posse' as opposed to what? The Arizona Army National Guard? The 82nd Airborne Division? I personally would have a much larger problem with a non-civilian posse.

I really don't see the problem with asking for civilian volunteers. Sheriff Joe isn't the only sheriff to have a group of private citizens backing up his regular deputies...I was one of the Sheriff's Auxiliary back in Missouri. As long as they work under the supervision and direction of regular officers, it's not 'vigilante justice', it's simply an attempt to get more manpower.

As for not wanting to discuss immigration, please don't tell me you didn't see that coming, given the 'where' and the 'what' in this story.

I used to live in Phoenix, Arizona.

What most people just don't get, because they don't see it first hand, is that Illegal Mexicans come here, have about 6+ kids, live on welfare, which us Americans pay for out of our taxes. Then when they make money, where does it go, about 5% back into our economy, the other 95% goes to where? MEXICO.

The Mexican government is doing nothing to stop the people from crossing the borders Illegaly, in fact they actually endorse it, why you ask? Because the money their people send back is fueling their economy.

Now ask yourself, why would you want this to continue? I have no problem with Mexicans, I actually know some people here illegaly, they are on the waiting list for their citizenship. They too are getting pissed off, because they worked so hard for what they have, and these people that come over here, and don't give a flying freak, about the citizens of this country. They just suck us dry.

I still have friends that live in Phoenix and they say everyday its like living in a suburb of Mexico. Essentially south of Indian school. There is trash on the roads, trailer parks that look like crap, run down apartments, dirt lots with trash in them, homeless Mexicans, houses that look like they were made with mud and bailing wire. Don't even get me started on the crime rate in those areas. I used to live on Northern and 7th st, my car got broken into at least once a month until I finally said screw it. So I moved out of there.

The average cost of a 1 bedroom apartment in that area is $256 mth. Now imagine a family of 8+ living in them. And only about 2 of them making money.

One of these days I will have to upload some of my old pictures of that area, so all of you guys can actually see what it is like in downtown and south Phoenix. Until then, if you have never been there, have family there or even friends, you can speculate all you want but you just don't know.

It may seem like I have come off to strong, in my post, but I am sick and tired of people bringing up the ancestor card. BTW I am talking about Mexicans, not Americans, not Europeans but Mexicans.

To the OT at hand; down there they need all the help they can get, they sure as hell ain't getting it from the government. The people that volunteered, did it because they too are sick of these Illegal Mexicans that are sucking up the economy down there.

Originally posted by Harvestfreak
What most people just don't get, because they don't see it first hand, is that Illegal Mexicans come here, have about 6+ kids, live on welfare, which us Americans pay for out of our taxes. Then when they make money, where does it go, about 5% back into our economy, the other 95% goes to where? MEXICO.

Again this is not the fault of Mexicans. Why are they getting welfare if they are illegal? You really can't blame someone who can move to another country and make more money on welfare than they could at home. What would you do in their situation? Would you do what your ancestors did and what Mexicans are doing now, move to a new country? There really are no Americans, just European and other countries immigrants. The only people who have a true claim to these lands is those who it was stolen from.

How can you blame them? Illegal immigration is a symptom of a corrupt system, quit blaming the symptom and fix the cause.

There is a long history of migration on this continent that goes way beyond the European invasion and illegal claim of it. Does a couple of hundred years legitimise theft? What is the statute of limitations on that? lol
Saying you're not directly responsible doesn't give you the right to claim something that wasn't yours, and to stop other people doing what your ancestors did, to begin with imo.

This is no different to the hysteria and racism that was abundant in the 60's and 70's in the UK with the high immigration of those times. Did it ruin the UK, some would say yes I guess, but realistically no. What ruined the UK, at least for me, was its own government headed by thatcher.

As I've said many times there are many illegals from Europe, you would be very surprised by how many, but you concentrate on Mexicans. When I first moved here from the UK in the late 80's I was part of the British community in Florida, and there were many who were illegal who had jobs and had kids in school. And what about illegal Asians, there's hundreds of them in California. You won't read about them in the MSM. There is more to this than just illegal immigration.

Originally posted by DisabledVet

About one third of our city is Mexico. Yes... Mexico. If you drive south of a street called McDowell and west of a street called 15th avenue you will be in Mexico. No American signs (except for street signs) no American shops, and well..no Americans... only Mexicans.

Ain't the what is called the 'Barrio'...

i had a friend there in Phoenix, back in '90-97, Raphael V.,
& i never had prblems when going to Mexican eateries or shops/businesses
where one can pick up used tools for real cheap, etc


but what the article is talking about is the events in East Phoenix,
I guess generally bounded by;
McDowell on the north - Baseline on the south -
16th St on the west - 48th St on the East

another section of town that is like other parts of the city, El Mirage and Guadalupe at SouthMountain.



It seems the citizens cited in the NY article...
(and mischaracterized for sensationalization purposes?)
were the very few 'ride with cops' civilians that
the police department/sherriffs' program provide for.


I know that i've had to secure vacant houses in the 48th & Hildago area
because every switch, WH, door, bathroom fixture, kitchen sink, swamp-cooler was stripped from the houses...i;ve seen wood flooring removed
even entry doors hinges and all completely gone...all that's left is an empty shell.

now with the building industry essentially shut down... and the 5AM
crop picking jobs already sewn up by Mexicans only, all those illegals
are having to resort to opportunity to put beans-on-the-table (now that phrase isn't a racial or ethnic slur, i've used it for years about my caucasian self and contemporaries from Carolina to Arizona)..

I'm surprised this is all the replies. It shows that the Government has a majority of us trained to believe it's alright to have 10's of millions of illegal immigrants here. Trained through media and staged actions on their behalf as if they ever even tried to solve the problem. They have a political agenda here.What it is I don't know but it's obvious that if illegal immigration was hurting our gov's plans that itwould be dealt with quickly.Look how fast they are to take action on something they benefit from.

reply to post by jokei



You should worry about your own country because your gonna end up under Islamic rule.

I think they use the civilians because they know these illegals on a personal level; work with em, worship with em, turn them in for not being legal.

plus with it being public, there wont be any vigilante killing, it will be done humanely; this way both sides, civilian and law, can know the progress and the process personally.

I would have nothing against illegals, except the way they get a free pass for committing crimes. My best friend was shot 3 times by his neighbor who was an illegal methamphetamine fiend; no justice what so ever. For all we know, the guy could come back and actually finish off the job. not to mention sell meth to someones kids and wife.

About them getting the community involved, its much better they do that since I can ask people personally how things went rather than having to wonder if I'm getting the full truth from some military agency sent out there with em.