Pentagon DNA Evidence....Is it Possible?

Originally posted by Disclosed Looks like all but 5 victims at the Pentagon location were identified by Nov 16th, 2001:

But how were they all (but 5) identified if the new DNA tresting was not ready untill 2002 ?

The bodies at the Pentagon were subjected to a jet fuel fire and the heat would have destroyed the DNA.

www.arlingtoncemetery.net...

Remains Unidentified For 5 Pentagon Victims
Bodies Were Too Badly Burned, Officials Say
Wednesday, November 21, 2001

The remains of five people killed in the terrorist attack on the Pentagon were damaged beyond identification in the massive explosion and fire after a hijacked airliner crashed into the building's west side, officials said.

[edit on 18-3-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
But how were they all (but 5) identified if the new DNA tresting was not ready untill 2002 ?

The links provided in the very first post explains how they were able to identify all of the victims (minus 5) by Nov 16th....using standard procedures.

The new DNA testing methods were probably added later to help identify SOME victims of the WTC collapses....due to fire, crushing, etc damage. Not all victims required the new tests.

www.arlingtoncemetery.net...

Remains Unidentified For 5 Pentagon Victims
Bodies Were Too Badly Burned, Officials Say
Wednesday, November 21, 2001

The remains of five people killed in the terrorist attack on the Pentagon were damaged beyond identification in the massive explosion and fire after a hijacked airliner crashed into the building's west side, officials said.

The arlingtoncemetary link (dated Nov 21st 2001) you provided also states the following:

Investigators have identified remains of 184 people who were aboard American Airlines Flight 77 or inside the Pentagon, including those of the five hijackers, but they say it is impossible to match what is left with the five missing people.

the very link you provded states they had identified 184 victims...all in Nov 2001.

[edit on 18-3-2008 by Disclosed]

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
reply to post by SlightlyAbovePar

 

Exactly the anaolgy I was looking for. I would assume Griff feels the same way. (should i assume?)

Yes, I do. But, it wasn't what I was responding to. I was responding to the poster that said there was no connection. I was just pointing out that YES there is a connection.

BTW, My friend's grandmother's phone was tapped once because a known drug dealer made a wrong number.

So, yes, even the feds go along with your scenario about associated guilt.

Originally posted by Disclosed
The new DNA testing methods were probably added later to help identify SOME victims of the WTC collapses....due to fire, crushing, etc damage. Not all victims required the new tests.

So your stating that there was no fire, crushing, etz at the Pentagon ?

Thats why they needed the new test, the ones that were not ready untill 2002.

[edit on 18-3-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
So your stating that there was no fire, crushing, etz at the Pentagon ?

Thats why they needed the new test, the ones that were not ready untill 2002.

Obviously not for the victims at the Pentagon location...which is what this thread is about. If you want to discuss DNA testing on the WTC victims, perhaps you need to start another thread...since that was not the discussion intent of the original poster.

The links provided....even YOUR links...stated DNA testing at the Pentagon was completed on 184 of 189 victims on Nov 16th 2001.

Are you saying the govt is lying when they stated 184 of 189 victims at the pentagon were identified?

The links provided....even YOUR links...stated DNA testing at the Pentagon was completed on 184 of 189 victims on Nov 16th 2001.

Are you saying the govt is lying when they stated 184 of 189 victims at the pentagon were identified?

Yes, that's possible. There is [I]not much evidence available[/I] to the public confirming the identification of the victims of AA77 and UA93 (except perhaps that foia request having a list of people who were supposedly identified at the Pentagon). We can't check this. Perhaps the identification was real, but their dna wasn't from the crash site. We can't check this either.
You may not find this a problem, but i do. To get the truth, the only thing we can do is looking at evidence which is available to the public.

That having said, i don't understand why some of you don't see this as a problem. It took years to identify the victims at the WTC, but only a few months to identify the victims at the Pentagon, while the result of the plane crashes were similar.

At the WTC there was fire, crushing of the buildings, much damage, etc ...

At the Pentagon, there was not much left of the plane, because it was shredded upon entrance. (That's the official story i believe, but perhaps you disagree with this?) There is fire afterwards. What do you think happens to its passengers when the plane is shredded and there is a fire afterwards?

In my opinion there is a hugh contradiction, which needs a good explanation, and i have yet to see one.

DNA 101 ......


Is there such a thing? I doubt it. Ever since starting this thread a few days ago, I decided to dig a little deeper into DNA and the processes involved in the identification of human remains.

I think the common misconception in this thread is that where people think of DNA, they think of a few common things where DNA is obvious. ie: blood, flesh, hair. And yes, one would assume these remains will not last long in a massive impact and fire like what was witnessed at the Pentagon.

What many of you have brought up is that fact that the heat generated by the fires and impact should have destroyed all DNA evidence. This is pretty much false. Now, I am not claiming to be a professional on this at all. But DNA strands can be found in many different ways.

DNA is found on bones and teeth too. Skulls, arms. legs... The best chance at finding DNA strands are in the Femur (thigh bones) the Tibia (knee caps) and your ribs. Even though DNA is found on all of your bones, these are known to have the highest sucess rate.

The WTC was different than the Pentagon in that the collapse of the towers destroyed much of the DNA. The remains found at the WTC did not have the available DNA strands that were seen with the remains at the Pentagon. Typical Nuclear DNA testing was unable to identify much of hte remains. This is why new DNA identification proccesses were requested and were created post 911. These new processes still were not able to identify over a thousand victims. (at the WTC)

What I found interesting, was the durability of DNA. I found this pretty amazing. In 1972, during Operation Linebacker II or the "Christmas Bombings" there were several US planes that did not return. Some Men were captured and returned as POW's, the remains of 15 others were not recovered at the time. Then:

In the mid 1980's In 1985, CILHI conducted the first joint recovery with
the Socialist Republic of Vietnam (SRV) of a B-52 crash
site where four members of an aircrew had perished [17].
In 1986, the SRV repatriated remains presumed to be
associated with the earlier recovery. Five samples were
cut from the remains recovered and submitted to AFDIL
for testing in 1996 and 1997. The samples consisted of
portions of a cranial vault, rib, femoral head, calcaneus,
and metacarpal. Full HVI/HVII sequence data were
generated for all five samples. In addition, the sequences
from the samples were all consistent with each other.
Family reference blood samples were acquired for three of
the airmen presumed to be associated with the case.
Unfortunately, no reference was available for the fourth
man (Maj. Irwin S. Lerner)

page 82


Lets look at how the DNA was identified at the Pentagon:

V. MITOCHONDRIAL DNA PHYLOGENETICS
AND FORENSICS — SEPTEMBER 11, 2001
AS A CASE STUDY
This was the case for mitochondrial
analyses performed by AFDIL after the terrorist attacks of
September 11, 2001.
Nuclear DNA testing (along with dental records and
fingerprints) of the remains from the victims aboard
American Airline (AA) Flight 77 and within the Pentagon
was useful for identifying 178 of the 183 victims. Five
missing individuals (four within the Pentagon and one
aboard the airplane) could not be identified due to lack of
biological material from the crash. Five remaining nuclear
STR profiles were obtained from the crash site that did not
match any references for the victims. These profiles were
thought to represent the terrorists aboard the flight. The 40
victims aboard the United Airline (UA) Flight 93 that
crashed near Shanksville, PA, were also identified by
nuclear DNA testing, dental records, and fingerprinting.
Four nonmatching nuclear DNA profiles were also obtained
from the crash site and again tentatively ascribed to the
terrorists.

page 83


I know this is over the heads of most of us, but I think it shows that yes we had and have the technology to identify the victims of flights 77 and 93. I think one has to try to get a resonable grasp as to what is involved in the DNA identification process.

reply to post by CaptainObvious


WOW!

Thanks for the super informative post, CaptainObvious!

That seems to sum up all the questions very nicely.

Great job!

Cremation? DNA? Teeth?...more questions. Some answers..and Information for Ultima

A cremator is an industrial furnace capable of generating 870-980 °C (1600-1800 °F) to ensure disintegration of the corpse. This does in fact eliminate any DNA evidence. This temperature does not necessarily destroy the teeth, crowns, fillings, or artificial teeth. This is important when you have the dental records of someone you are trying to identify.

I did a quick search to see what the max temps were in the Pentagon...no luck... but it's after midnight and I have to get up at 4:45... maybe tomorrow night.?


EDIT TO ADD: You are very welcome Disclosed.
Ultima, here is some information for you:

Some Interesting Uses of DNA Forensic Identification

Identifying September 11th Victims

Identifying the victims of the September 11, 2001, World Trade Center attack presented a unique forensic challenge because the number and identity of the victims were unknown and many victims were represented only by bone and tissue fragments. At the time of the attack, no systems were in place for rapidly identifying victims in disasters with more than 500 fatalities. The National Institutes of Justice assembled a panel of experts from the National Institutes of Health and other institutions to develop processes to identify victims using DNA collected at the site. Panel members produced forms and kits needed to enable the medical examiner’s office to collect reference DNA from victims’ previously stored medical specimens. These specimens were collected and entered into a database. The medical examiner's office also received about 20,000 pieces of human remains from the World Trade Center site, and a database of the victims’ DNA profiles was created. New information technology infrastructure was developed for data transfer between the state police and medical examiner’s office and to interconnect the databases and analytical tools used by panel members. In 2005 the search was declared at an end because many of the unidentified remains were too small or too damaged to be identified by the DNA extraction methods available at that time. Remains of only 1585, of the 2792 people known to have died had been identified. In 2007, the medical examiner's office reopened the search after the Bode Technology Group developed a new methodology of DNA extraction that required much less sample material than previously necessary. The victim DNA database and the new methods have allowed more victims to be identified, and further identifications will be possible as forensic DNA technology improves.

DNA Forensics

[edit on 18-3-2008 by CaptainObvious]

Originally posted by Disclosed
The links provided....even YOUR links...stated DNA testing at the Pentagon was completed on 184 of 189 victims on Nov 16th 2001.

Are you saying the govt is lying when they stated 184 of 189 victims at the pentagon were identified?

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
EDIT TO ADD: You are very welcome Disclosed.
Ultima, here is some information for you:

Are you still trying to state that the Pentagon did not have fires and crushing of bodies just like the WTC, the reasaon that head of the DNA testign sk for the new test ?

What i am stating is how could all the bodies have been identified before the new DNA testing was done? I mean there had to be reason for the head of DNA testing to ask for the new test.

I ahve to stand by the facts and evdience from the head of the DNA testing.






[edit on 19-3-2008 by ULTIMA1]

reply to post by ULTIMA1


Ultima. Let me ask you. Do you think the energy produced during the Pentagon collapse was equal to that at the WTC?

There is lots of information that actually does the math for you.

Simply put though... 110 stories falling at a tremendous speed..vs. The collapse of 5 Floors.

Think about it. Also look at the diagram I posted where remains were found.

So, do me a favor. post your findings on here with a comparison of the two...
Thank you,

C.O.

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
Ultima. Let me ask you. Do you think the energy produced during the Pentagon collapse was equal to that at the WTC?

The Pentagon had a lot more and hotter jet fuel fire. The majority of the jet fuel at the towers were burned off outside and what was left burned off quickly. The Pentagon had more fire inside in the building causing more heat meaning more destruction to the plane and the bodies. (otherwise we would see more plane and more bodies)

As stated and proven, heat damages DNA so the bodies at the Pentagon would have more reason to use the new testing that was requested by the head of the DNA testing. There had to be a good reason for the head of the DNA testing to request new testing.






[edit on 19-3-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
The Pentagon had a lot more and hotter jet fuel fire.

The force and weight of 5 floors collapsing was more powerful than 110 floors collapsing?

Plus, you have said many times that the fires themselves were just "normal office fires". Are you saying you were wrong about that fact?

So are you saying the govt lied when they reports 184 of 189 bodies were identified on Nov 21st 2001? What would they benefit from that?

Can you show us a link that states the new DNA testing was required for the Pentagon victims?

All of the facts and evidence seem to show that you are 100% wrong on this matter. Evidence and facts given by the people that did the identification.

Are you saying they are in on your conspiracy as well?

Lots of questions now...

edit: spelling

[edit on 19-3-2008 by Disclosed]

Double post

[edit on 19-3-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by Disclosed
The force and weight of 5 floors collapsing was more powerful than 110 floors collapsing?

All of the facts and evidence seem to show that you are 100% wrong on this matter. Evidence and facts given by the people that did the identification.

I never stated anything about the collapse between the WTC and Pentagon.

I have stated the facts about the jet fuel as provided and confirmed by several reports. Almost all reports state that the majority of jet fuel was burned off outside the towers and what was left burnt off quickly.

Please explain to me why the head of the DNA testing requested new testing, it must have been needed or he would not have requested it.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
Please explain to me why the head of the DNA testing requested new testing, it must have been needed or he would not have requested it.

Did he request it for the Pentagon?

All evidence and facts prove that 184 of 189 victims were identified on or about Nov 16th, 2001.

Please show us where the head of the DNA testing requested new testing for the Pentagon victims.

I think you will find the additional testing was needed for WTC victims, not Pentagon victims....since all but 5 were identified.

Originally posted by Disclosed
All evidence and facts prove that 184 of 189 victims were identified on or about Nov 16th, 2001.

What's so hard with planting DNA evidence during the chain of command?

Unless you guys can show that there was NO government involvement in the chain of command in handling said DNA, then you have no leg to stand on.

Do you have that information?

From point 1 to point 100, was there independent handling of the evidence ALL the way to the lab?

Originally posted by Disclosed Did he request it for the Pentagon?

All evidence and facts prove that 184 of 189 victims were identified on or about Nov 16th, 2001.

www.nist.gov...

Testimony of

Dr. Arden L. Bement, Jr.
Director
National Institute of Standards and Technology
Technology Administration
U.S. Department of Commerce
Before the

Committee on Science
Subcommittee on Environment, Technology, and Standards
House of Representatives
United States Congress

“Homeland Security”

June 10, 2002

To help identify victims of the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks, the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology used NIST measurements to test new DNA analysis techniques to identify attack victims that would not otherwise have been identified due to small sample size.

[edit on 19-3-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by Griff
What's so hard with planting DNA evidence during the chain of command?

Actually it wouldnt be hard at all. That would be under the assumption that some party (govt, illuminati, etc) killed off the victims, gathered their DNA and provided that to the labs for testing.

Unless you guys can show that there was NO government involvement in the chain of command in handling said DNA, then you have no leg to stand on.

Since the govt employees were probably involved in some aspect of either gathering or transporting of said DNA samples, I dont believe anyone can state that NO govt involvement happened.
However, I'm going by the data released, and information provided by the testing facilities/employees/etc.

reply to post by ULTIMA1


So, are you saying the govt and officials lied when they reported 184 of 189 victims were identified by Nov 16, 2001?

What would they benefit from releasing that information at that time?