Debt Serfdom comes to America

Think twice about the American Revolutionary war...did America really win??

reply to post by pacificwind


The responses are not so much for your benefit as for those who may not realize that such posturing does not go unchecked.

Other than "work harder" do you have any suggestions for the countless homeless, unemployed, disabled, or struggling middle class? Truly, I am wide open to suggestions.

reply to post by whitewave


Actually, all they do is show that your upset that someone isn't on the bandwagon of "OMG ITS ALL..EVERYONE ELSES FAULT." I know it must enrage you.

Care to tell us who it is thats struggling so hard? Its so easy to tell sob stories and talk about the homeless, the poor, care to tell us what percent of these people make up the population, with facts and not propaganda?

Other than "the government sucks and its not your fault" do you have any suggestions for the not so countless homeless, unemployed, disabled, or struggling middle class?


[edit on 16-3-2008 by pacificwind]

reply to post by mybigunit

Pacific wind is the same person has lightindarkness.....has to be you spout the same rhetoric as him and can never back it up with facts just euphoria type theories.

I suspected exactly the same thing. Too many coincidences, the Mason thing, the rewriting of others posts with fill in the blanks changes, the same 'attack a forum for being what it is' mentality.

I don't know if it's against ATS rules to have multiple handles on the board, but I have to ask myself why someone would do it? Too many Warns on the other handle maybe? Easier to make outrageous statements? I guess I don't really care.

The 'Fed' (private banks) are stealing us blind by printing worthless paper and diluting our Dollar. They will leave this country in a ditch for dead when they're done.

Now hold on a minute with the "sob story" crap and dismising people's stories out of hand. What I told was of the recent few weeks. I have had my time in the big chair as well. Those that know would have seen the irony in my sarcasm in the later part of the post as it so happened that once upon a time I did indeed turn down a girl that asked me out way back when we were both in our respective high schools. Her name was Tara Patrick which you know by her stage name of Carmen Electra.

Oh yeah as a younger man I had an interesting life and constantly ran into, was introduce to, partied with and hung out with people that once were and would one day be known people. Some bigger than others, sure and no I am not so pompus as to name drop them all.

Sure I could have tried to arrange for help or a handout but that is not how I am nor would want to be. A couple of the people that I could have turned to view indebtness in a bit different regaurd than financial matters. In otherwords you owe them.

Here in Ohio, we have more colleges, universities and trade schools than any other state in the union. It would be an exageration to say you need a college degree to work at McDonalds however any good paying job requires one irreguardless of experience, attitutde, intelligence, flexablity, capacity to learn, or except in cases of nepotism who you know.

Things are that way in other parts of the country as well. As for the immigrant that in 3 years time has a house and two cars on 30K? Last I checked cars go for about 20K new and 8K for decent used. Houses run 100-150K on average. So your work is either in debt to his eyeballs, had other forms of assistance or other sources of income.

My personal expenses of rent, utilities and food are about $700/mo and fuel will be in the $250/mo range at current prices. About two weeks pay. So, yep living well within my means. Please tell the people at Ford Motor Co. about fiscal responsablity beacuse Ford announced two weeks ago that since Feb 2008 sales were down 7% form Feb 2007 that production is being cut by 10% and layoffs are coming. Or maybe people at the GM assembly plant in Moraine, OH were foolish due to a labor strike at an axle supplier just shut down all their production. Even Toyota is cutting production.

With the current economic insecurity a good number of people might have to drop the keys off at their bank and say "sorry". Blame the government for that? No. Blame the government for allowing business practices to continue that eroded our infrastructure this far? Yes. Production is down, transportation is down, sales are down and anyone with a lick of sense is padding their nest egg so they can weather a short term setback. Problem with that is with saving for the rainy day, sales are down, transportation is down, manufactoring is down and cuts have to be made so jobs are cut, local income is reduced......see the whole loop yet?

No these are not "sob stories" of the downtrodden. This is the reality in which over a 100 million people experience everyday here in America. And that number grows as nothing is done to curb it. However, unlike the Great Depression, industry is not growing in our country; it is being exported to cheaper labor in other countries with lower standards of living. When the bottom does fall out (and we are quite a ways from it yet) it will make that time look like a picnic. And if you think gangs and crime is bad in the cities now, just wait until desperate and starving people start shooting and killing others for the last two bites of a hot dog.

Because not only have I rubbed elbows with the rich and famous I have seen two bums get in a knife fight over ownership of a cardboard box just off Burbon St. in New Orleans in 1989. And had the business end of a .38 Special in my face while the owner asked what I was doing in this part of town in Jacksonville, FL in 1991 because I was white and it was after dark when I stopped to ask him for directions to get me un-lost.

Nope, not "sob stories" at all. Just experiences of people that they are not ashamed to tell. But I also know for a fact that some have stories they won't tell about a fleeting pursuit of happiness that distracted them from their grab at the brass ring as they scrounge for another dollar to buy another ride on the merry-go-round again.

(edit--typos, grammar, goofs while fingers try to keep up with the mind)

[edit on 16-3-2008 by Ahabstar]

reply to post by HimWhoHathAnEar


Wow i didnt even see the mason writings lol yup it is good old light why the name change light? I liked the other name better. So now you dont know what your talking about and your name isnt as good as your old one cmon man help me out here.

As per usual, the post gang on here goes nuts whenever someone doesn't agree with them. Apparently, now telling me I'm someone else. Uh-huh. Sure.

But I understand. It is so much easier to throw out insane red herrings like this than actually talk about the issues at hand. And if two people apparently don't agree with your group think, they must be the same person!

But your not interested in a discussion, your interested in back slapping each other and confirming your own extraordinarily ideological crazy world views. Its become apparent you simply can't handle anyone that doesn't join in your group think. You enjoy yourselves, I've had enough of playing with the children . Its too bad, because most of the people on the alternative news board are nice and willing to discuss things. Its always the few bad apples.

Continue with your inane theories and outrageous statements. Feel correct

Have fun with your post gang, children

[edit on 16-3-2008 by pacificwind]

reply to post by pacificwind



I don't subscribe to any forum gang, present a solid opinion and invite debate of it. Sure I defend what I say and when written well enough I get a star from some that agree and some that do not because it made them think and evaluate their own opinions and sometime change them and sometimes strengthen them. Heck, every now and again I say the right thing at the right time and get a bit of applause just for saying something.

However as of late, some just point to a different post and leave in a huff without any debate and the thread just dies. It leaves me wondering if I said nothing of value or they were sage words for the ages that would only be cheapened by a series of "yeah, what he said" replies.

Yeah, wishful thinking and blowing a little sunshine up my own, I suppose.

just to provide a short breather in your growing flame war guys ^^

in these discussions one very easy to understand fact never seems to occur to anyone as an example of it being an evil master plan..

a bank account is a product, which you purchase from a private company, the bank, now go down to the bank and close all of your accounts.. before long someone, and im not pointing fingers here. but someone will show up at your door or send you a letter telling you that what you are doing is illegal and that you must get a bank account.
now ask yourself, why would a free goverment force its citizens to purchase a private companies product?

i realize this law does not apply to all countries and/or states, but the fact that the dollar is a privately owned object which you dont own even thou its your money, should pretty much give even the dumbest ignorammy an idea thats something is wrong.

if none of this works, give up and convince someone else, your current target isnt worth enlightening ^^

reply to post by DimensionalDetective


Bravo for this post! An excellent article.

reply to post by pacificwind


One last attempt to educate.

Enraged? Hardly. Barely interested. I don't believe I said that my current plight was "everyone else's fault".

As for who all is suffering: check out these sites for a glimpse of what I'm talking about.
homeless
state of the economy
economic predictions for 2008

And yes, I do have suggestions for all the people who aren't homeless, unemployed, etc. Enjoy it while it lasts and stock up on essentials while they're still available.

A good point was made about the current state of affairs being planned. I really don't think it's possible to get in this big of a mess without deliberate planning.

reply to post by DimensionalDetective


No I think we just went through the voluntary slavery period
according to inter nation law according to some CT.

Just say you declare yourself not a slave.

That was in 1999.

Who knows what Bush did to us.
He should step up his conspiracy readings.

He will have a lot of time on his hands soon.

reply to post by pacificwind


The poor pay taxes. Sales tax on food in many states...sales tax on everything they need from toilet paper to toothpaste...they pay tax on fuel to get to and from work. They pay utility taxes on electricity, water and gas. Taxes on phone service... These taxes actually are payed more so than the rich person in proportion to their income. To suggest that poor people live the good life means this person is either deep in denial, or in need of some serious psychotherapy.

Also, it isn't like it's an absolute level playing field. People with lower IQ's won't be able to go into higher education. People born and raised in poor families without health insurance have a higher percentage of "sick days" at school and so as a percentage are at a disadvantage...also, poorer children go hungry more often and are undernurished providing a further disadvantage when competing with the weathier well fed children in school. Moreover, many kids are forced to drop out of school to work to help support their struggling family, and are obviously at a disadvantage. Also, there is a thing called "white privelage"....Those who make it into graduate school are truley fortunate indeed when one considers the small percentage of people who ever make it that far, or who are even capable of it, to say nothing about being able to afford it. If everyone where wealthy, healthy, and all came with an IQ afforded by the genes at least one standard deviation above the mean, perhaps the argument (well if they lazy underprivelaged grunts would just get off their duffs and pull up their GD boot straps...) would hold water, and then the argument could perhaps hold some water and all who have been fortunate enough in their accomplishments could comense stroking their own egos and do it honestly.

Take the rose colored glasses off, and step out of the Egyption river onto the bank, and this fantasy quickly fades into one of staring directly into the sober eyes of reality. In a capitalist society not everyone can be in the top brackets...infact the vast majority are not there and never will be.

[edit on 17-3-2008 by skyshow]

reply to post by skyshow


Great statement and totally agree with it right up until the "white Privelage" part. This are PLENTY of poor whites out there who are in the same scenerio as other races. I think you mean "rich privelage" because where Im from there is a very wealthy prominant black politician whos kid was a complete moron but still made it into Florida because of who his daddy was. So this isnt a race issue there are many people at a disadvantage of all races.

Originally posted by Ahabstar

Things are that way in other parts of the country as well. As for the immigrant that in 3 years time has a house and two cars on 30K? Last I checked cars go for about 20K new and 8K for decent used. Houses run 100-150K on average. So your work is either in debt to his eyeballs, had other forms of assistance or other sources of income.


(edit--typos, grammar, goofs while fingers try to keep up with the mind)

[edit on 16-3-2008 by Ahabstar]

My worker has only a mortgage payment. Fortunatley he listened to my mad rantings and also decided he was going to live his life debt free. It doesn't take a lot of money to buy a car for cash there are plenty of good running cars around for less than 5 grand. It's all about your attitude. He has never applied for nor accepted any type of grant , aide or etc he is just a plain hard worker. I wish I could find some americans that leave there attitudes at home and produce as well as he does. It's all about work ethic and many americans do not have that anymore or they let there attitude get in the way. If you insist on putting yourself in debt you should be aware of the potential fallbacks if some unexpected event causes you to default on that debt. I am not discounting the sob stories I feel for each and everyone of you and just for the record I too am still in debt but working quickly to escape it. The closer you get to being debt free the faster your money works for you. Sure it may be too late for some people that are drowning but I hope that there are some younger people out there that will realize what is important and how they are being taken advantage of and do something about it instead of falling for the same trap most of us did. Again I say short term sacrifice for long term goals.

With all that said there are still some fundamental problems in the U.S. that must be fixed.

Income taxes are illegal and should be repealed
The fed Should be aboloished and we should go back to the gold standard
The tax system needs a serious overhaul
we need to get someone in power that is for the people and not for the elite.
Property taxes should be repealed it is not right that a person spends there whole life buying a piece of property only to have it taken away becasue they can not afford the property taxes. Property is property and the gov should not be able to take it away under any circumstance.

Remember they may set the rules but you are the one that chooses to live by them.

I'll stop there becasue I really should be working. Have a great day everybody and I'll leave you with a thought.... Does it require a college degree, or a butt kissing job to be free or is it simply a matter of attitude and choices?

from an article by Elliot Spitzer:
www.globalresearch.ca...

"Several years ago, state attorneys general and others involved in consumer protection began to notice a marked increase in a range of predatory lending practices by mortgage lenders. Some were misrepresenting the terms of loans, making loans without regard to consumers' ability to repay, making loans with deceptive "teaser" rates that later ballooned astronomically, packing loans with undisclosed charges and fees, or even paying illegal kickbacks. These and other practices, we noticed, were having a devastating effect on home buyers. In addition, the widespread nature of these practices, if left unchecked, threatened our financial markets"...
"Let me explain: The administration accomplished this feat through an obscure federal agency called the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC). The OCC has been in existence since the Civil War. Its mission is to ensure the fiscal soundness of national banks. For 140 years, the OCC examined the books of national banks to make sure they were balanced, an important but uncontroversial function. But a few years ago, for the first time in its history, the OCC was used as a tool against consumers.

In 2003, during the height of the predatory lending crisis, the OCC invoked a clause from the 1863 National Bank Act to issue formal opinions preempting all state predatory lending laws, thereby rendering them inoperative. The OCC also promulgated new rules that prevented states from enforcing any of their own consumer protection laws against national banks. The federal government's actions were so egregious and so unprecedented that all 50 state attorneys general, and all 50 state banking superintendents, actively fought the new rules.

But the unanimous opposition of the 50 states did not deter, or even slow, the Bush administration in its goal of protecting the banks. In fact, when my office opened an investigation of possible discrimination in mortgage lending by a number of banks, the OCC filed a federal lawsuit to stop the investigation."

*******
Hm, you think maybe that's why Spitzer was "outed"? He was a thorn in the side of Big Govt.

Pacificwind and those who agree with him/her - I may not be financially secure, but at least I have compassion. You are living in a fantasy world of govt. propaganda, it's what they want you to believe. But it's nothing more than blaming the victim. All may be pristine in your little white-washed world, but it isn't the reality of many, many Americans and it's getting worse for them.
When rent is $800 a month, heat is $300 a month (thanks to Enron it went from S$100 to $300 a month) water is $45 a month, PG&E is S$70 a month and you only take home $1,400 a month - how do you pay all of your bills? This is exactly what happened to me. I had to move and rent had gone up (with no rent control). I worked as a transcriptionist for an insurance agency, a professional occupation, and that's what happened to me. I went months without hot water and had to take cold showers - in a place that got down to 17 degrees in the winter. I have a Master's degree and I have worked since I was 12 (in my dad's office).
It wasn't always this way. Wages haven't increased, but bills have.

Don't judge the poor unless you've been there and walked in their shoes.

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
..... Not only is the third world worker cheaper, but he is probably harder working and less of a winer than the American worker......

That is a offensive to this American worker and I do not appreciate the stereotyping. I have worked my butt off for years including putting myself through college and still have to struggle making ends meet from time to time.

Humans are are living beings that deserve to be treated with respect and dignity by those who would profit form our labor.

reply to post by forestlady


The Illuminati always has something on any official in order to bring him
down.

Or else they do it the hard way.
JFK's Federal banking change was reversed by LBJ.

You got porn links on your computer, no.. they will put it there if need be.

The Spitz had no idea of the power....

ED: An empty house and no cash flow are not assets.
Texas had a building boom for some big impending job rush.
Didn't happen and the development was bulldozed.



[edit on 3/17/2008 by TeslaandLyne]

Yes YES, Nationalize The Banking System ! It may have already begun with Bear Stearns/JP Morgan

Originally posted by forestlady
Don't judge the poor unless you've been there and walked in their shoes.

In your self righteous hatred, you seemed to have forgotten to read: been there, done that. Worse than you can imagine. Walked in their shoes far more miles than you can ever comprehend. But I'm not interested in telling my sob story, because I don't blame others for where I've been in life.

And this is why I give up on this thread: people are to busy preaching their propaganda rather than interested in a conversation.

The sad fact is I probably give more money to charity and do more volunteering than most of the self-righteous and self-proclaimed "compassionate" people here. Yes, I am a filthy delusional rich-class supporting idiot, an idiot who has said I believe in people. I beleive they can accomplish whatever they set their mind to. A rich elitist who worked from absolute poverty to middle class (yet somehow I'm a rich elitist), who volunteers 16 hours a week at a food bank and soup kitchen. A rich elitist that donates over 30% of his income not to a religion, but to a wide variety of charities. I wasn't going to mention any of this, but apparently the populism fascists on this board require that you demonstrate your compassion. Instead of simply derailing everyone who doesn't type out essays about how evil the rich are and how the poor are not at fault for anything, I have instead told you what I ACTUALLY do.

Yes, if all that makes me a rich elitist, so be it. I'd much rather be that then some self-aggrandizing and self-proclaimed compassionate person who spends their time derailing and bashing everyone who dares suggest that - gasp - people can work and achieve great things for themselves.

I don't live in a delusional world where everything is divided into rich versus poor, where everything is the fault of the rich. I don't live in a fantasy world where I can simply shift the blame. I live in the real world. If that doesn't fit with your little self-made reality where you do nothing but preach to the choir about how life sucks, so be it.

I'm out. Resume your populist propaganda and agreement about how everything sucks without me.

[edit on 17-3-2008 by pacificwind]