Debt Serfdom comes to America

It matters not how much money you make or don't make, you are still a wage slave. It doesn't matter if you're in debt or not. Unless you have achieved (or inherited) independent wealth then you are not free. If you do gain that wealth you simply pay for your freedom.

But if not, you are trading your life for pieces of paper backed by debt that can never be paid off. You work to survive so you can keep working in order to survive. It's a complicated web of propaganda but the result is the same. Slavery. Trading pieces of your life away for something that may ultimately trade to it's intrinsic value; Zero. The actual gain is for the top part of the pyramid scheme known as the 'world economy'. We are their slaves, running their slave grinding machines.

man our system has done nothing but get harder an harder to live in, Im so poor people make a living off of selling my debt lol.....

an can you show me my plasma tvs, my fancy nice car, and the other things that got me into debt? Oh wait it was my health darn I shouldnt of bought these medical conditions..... but here i am 250,000.00USD in debt( and thats 5 years of seeing docs an specialists WITHOUT a Diagnosis ... an honestly im only 3k in debt with non medical bills but I still cannot get a credit card unless theres money put on it as a debit card.....

Its a shame when people fall thru the cracks, its a Disaster when thousands do......

for the love of keeping your purchasing power, buy some silver (or if you can afford gold, grab it) they are likely headed toward 50 and 2500 by summer 2010. heck buy a couple ounces of silver every paycheck, watch this money grow.

government/fed bailouts and a flight from bond markets to real money will do the trick, collapsing bond markets will also cripple country's. Look for central banks holding dollars to invest them more in GOLD.

a litte wisdom, since CPI numbers have been re-calculated and reweighted and re-defined the cpi index is artificially low, which means the GDP growth in this country has been manipulated and is *actually* about 3% less for the last several years, which would put us in a recession. Of course up until now wall street has made out like bandits, so imagine how pissed people would be to see that wall street stiffs are making a killing while the working people get hosed, wonder why the numbers are politicized?

www.fiendbear.com...

[edit on 15-3-2008 by cpdaman]

Originally posted by jackinthebox
I have to laugh out loud at your ignorance. Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about. If you were ever in poverty, you would know what I am about to prove. So now I suggest that you do some research and stop babbling propagandist rhetoric.

I have to laugh out loud at your ignorance. Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about. If you were ever in poverty, you would know what I am about to prove. So now I suggest that you do some research and stop babbling propagandist rhetoric.

Poor people pay taxes - a lie.

Except for mining and construction, weekly wages for all private industry sectors are up or the same over time, adjusted for inflation. And the decreases in those two industries is extremely small. But wait! Let me guess, all of it is a government lie. Because only when the government agrees with you is it considered to be correct. :down:

On another note, I have to laugh at the post gang here. In order to not feed them, I'm just going to respond to one person. People are so blind when they so desperately want to buy into a political ideology. One day people will grow up and realize that just because someone doesn't agree with you it's OK not to go into hysterics. Its like watching the sheep step right up to the mass media slaughter, as they constantly tell you how everything sucks.

Do your research.

Now, resume bashing me and feeling good about yourselves.

[edit on 15-3-2008 by pacificwind]

reply to post by pacificwind


Did you bother to read the thread I posted, or is that wind coming from someplace other than the Pacific?

Single person earns $10,294. This figure is exactly the poverty threshold which was defined by the U.S. Census Bureau in 2006. This year, that amount would be taxed by the Federal government in the amount of $117.

reply to post by jackinthebox


I believe that would be the poverty threshold for a HOUSEHOLD, not just one person.

reply to post by jackinthebox


Did you bother to read the evidence I posted, or are you just spamming because you refuse to read the data?

The lowest quintile of tax payers have an effective individual tax rate of -5.2% in 2008.

Gee, other tax payers are paying the lowest quintile of tax payers money, instead of the lowest quintile paying taxes. I tell you what, those poor people sure are paying a lot of taxes! So much that they are receiving 5% of their income in the form of tax refunds, even though they paid no taxes!

[edit on 15-3-2008 by pacificwind]

Minimum wage is still currently 5.85. It won't go up to 6.55 for another couple months. Then by the middle of next year it will be in the mid-7 range.

That still isn't enough for most people to live in a studio apartment with water, electric/gas, food, and transportation to work (minus walking ... cabs are just as expensive as a car). You can't save money, because if you make it, you may have $5 a week leftover ... $60 a year isn't much of a savings account. You can't buy anything on credit, because you don't have the excess income for another bill, so you wouldn't even consider it in the first place.


Yes, if you are rich, you are not a slave to this economy, but if you make 20k or less, you are struggling in 95% of the U.S. When rent is $500/month, utilities $400 month, food a measly $100 month, and you make 960 month before taxes, FICA, etc. how in the world are you to survive? You are already $40/month in debt working 40+ hours a week with no debt from your gross paycheck, not your net. A person making 240/week brings home around 160-180 a week, which means they can't even pay for rent and utilities in a not-so-nice studio apartment and neighborhood. That is right, minimum wage makes too much for government help but too little to have a roof over their head and food and water in their bellies. The beauty of America.


Wake up. Not everyone makes 100k+ a year or has 2 incomes families at that level or above. There are poor people struggling to live in a tent, with no car, and taking showers at truck stops to get clean for work. This is a reality, and not as rare as some are trying to make it out.

It is a shame that we talk like we are the best nation in the world, but we treat our own so poorly. We have homeless and starving people who have jobs, but we spend billions a month on a war, we feed other countries, we do some much worldwide while ignoring our own population.

Then some people have the nerve to be so arrogant and derrogatory to blame the poor for being poor just because they grew up elitist and have no concept what it is like to make $5/hr or live paycheck to paycheck without having money for even a tv and bunny ears.

This arrogance and self-importance is why I leave the boards occasionally. I can't stand ignorance and snobbery, especially from those with no heart or soul, nor have they ever experienced real hardship in their lives. These are the same people that throw coffee at a drive-through worker because it took an extra 20 seconds to get their order, despite the place is busy and understaffed, while also being underpaid.

Then say they deserve it, but you wouldn't get your $1 hamburgers without those people slaving labor to serve you with a smile. Service jobs must be done and the utmost respect should be given to them. They are the ones making minimum wage, barely scraping by, and working 5x harder than anyone in a suit and tie. I have done that work before, I suggest all of you do it once, whether McDonald's, or temp labor digging ditches ... learn what real life, real labor is about, and realize those are the people struggling, not you in your SUVs, trucks, and luxury cars that don't even know what it is like to have to sweat or get dirty.


The underclass to middle class are working slaves to this horrid economy. Without them, this country can't exist. Could you imagine a wall-street fool trying to work in a mine, tar a roof, dig a ditch, or do anything manual labor wise?


Watch the show technology jones and see just how out of touch with reality these rich people are. One guy has night vision goggles just to bring in his dog at night. It is a crying shame.

reply to post by chromatico

I believe that would be the poverty threshold for a HOUSEHOLD, not just one person.

In 2006, in the United States of America, the poverty threshold for a single person under 65 was US$10,488; the threshold for a family group of four, including two children, was US$20,444

source

There are several different measure of poverty in the US. According to this source, my calculations show that someone living below the poverty line, is still paying taxes.




[edit on 3/16/0808 by jackinthebox]

[edit on 3/16/0808 by jackinthebox]

reply to post by pacificwind

Gee, other tax payers are paying the lowest quintile of tax payers money...

Um, what?

If you are trying to suggest that poverty is the fault of people who are poor, then you really are ignorant about poverty. Gee, maybe if there was meaningful employment that people could actually surivive on, we wouldn't have this problem.

So much that they are receiving 5% of their income in the form of tax refunds, even though they paid no taxes!

I just showed you that a person living in poverty still pays taxes.



[edit on 3/16/0808 by jackinthebox]

I know in the USA there is a growing industry in what you call 'zombie' debts , those that keep coming back from the dead and are generally past the given period laid down by the statute of limitations ( either 5 or 6 years in usa, not sure ) . If you are a receipient of attention for such debts, do not pay nor acknowledge any of their claims. These companies work on fear and intimidation and on you not knowing the reclaiming of this 'debt' is no longer legally enforceable.

reply to post by Gun Totin Gerbil


I am being sued again for a debt that was included in my bankruptcy. I have to see how this pans out, but I'll bet my lawyer is gonna want more money to fight it.

And you can't just ignore it. The onus is now on the debtor, since the bankruptcy reforms, to show that the debt is invalid. If you fail to do so, they will garnish your wages.

reply to post by pacificwind


The whole debate here really is over quality of life. If we're forced to work 2 full-time jobs, while going to school full-time, all while supporting children, where's there any time for enjoyment?

You say that people get into debt solely because they chose to. That's simply not correct. Many people get wrapped up in situations that they cannot get out of financially, simply because they don't have any way to make it happen.

This being said, I think it's a shame that people feel the need to go out and go into debt to buy something that they don't need, when they could be spending it on better things. Emergency surgery is more important, in my opinion, than that new plasma TV.

For those that make the choice to go into debt, there's not much I can say, other than bummer. They asked for it. But conversely, there's an equal, if not larger number of people that didn't ask to be in this situation, and are eagerly seeking a way out.

After weighing all of the factors together, I can see both sides of this debate, and would be willing to bet my ATS points that the majority of people are not in debt out of willful ignorance, but out of necessity.

Something to consider.

TheBorg

I love the righteous elitism on this board. The minute you advocate for people improving themselves, all of a sudden your a rich elitist who never had to struggle. When in reality, almost everyone except trust fund babies has to struggle - a vast majority of people generate their own wealth. I can tell some here have been fed the mass media populism and they bought it wholesale.

People sure do love class warfare. It ensures they don't have to do anything but blame "the rich."

reply to post by jackinthebox


My point was - is - and remains - that the "poor" not only do not pay net taxes, but they get money directly from the government in the form of things like the EITC. If you deny this you are simply denying reality. This is why the lowest 20% of income earners receive 5% of their income from tax refunds...for taxes they did not pay.

What you are doing are looking at taxes paid and not net taxes. This is intentionally deceptive on your part. Net taxes takes total taxes paid minus refunds, which shows - YET AGAIN - that the poor receive more back in tax refunds than they actually pay. They do not pay taxes. Case closed.

For example:
Gross Income: 10,000
FICA/SSA Taxes: -100
Net Income: 9,900

Because you are being deceptive, you stop here. You ignore the next part:

Tax Refund (EITC): +600
Total Income: 10,500
Tax Rate: 0%, income increase of 5%.

If you wish to continue your class warfare, you will have to choose another line of attack if you are actually in search of the truth. Because the truth is the poor don't pay taxes.

Originally posted by TheBorg
You say that people get into debt solely because they chose to.

Because I do not agree with the class warfare group think on this board, people conveniently didn't read what I said and jumped to conclusions (I am NOT talking about you here, Borg, you are being nice - I think you got this from reading other peoples posts). What I actually said is:

the vast majority of those who are in debt at some point made the decision to get in that debt because they wanted something they couldn't pay for in cash at the time.

I have never claimed all people are in debt because of things within their control. That is why I used the term majority, and not "all." But again, because there is a mob group think mentality among the class warfare people here, they skip all of this and go on the rabid attack mode. You are the first person so far who has not gone on rabid attack mode Borg - but if you were reading other peoples posts, I can again see where you might get confused about what I actually said.

But other than that, I agree with you

[edit on 16-3-2008 by pacificwind]

Originally posted by Trance Optic
its the money....

Yep. It sure is. And how do we get rid of money? I say the answer is free energy, and I say I have seen recreations of Wilhelm Reich's items and made enough personal observations to strongly suspect that the energy Tesla spoke of is there.

Why is free energy the answer? Because money is used to exchange energy expenditure. No matter what you look at, it all boils down to that, one way or another.

And the reason we exchange energy is because, really, it is what we survive on. And there is a more or less finite supply of it in ways we can economically extract.

If we could extract energy in abundance individually and at our need, money would not be a thing we would need. And it is because we are at certain points in a number of areas of societal growth that this is so.

We sit with robotic and AI set to go. It is important to note the graph of human technological development at this point, because that graph, of about 5,000 years of human history, shows something rather peculiar.

For the first few aeons, the line sits low, and then somewhere in the 1800's it begins to noticeably move up. And from that point on the steps upward each are bigger than the last. And at, interestingly enough, somewhere at the end of 2012, the graph projects an effectively infinite leap.

So we sit here with robotics and AI set to go. And wondrous things to come in all other branches of tech, as well. In medicine. In virtually everything.

But right now so much is held from us, so that someone somewhere can make money off us. The love of money. Evil.

But think about it... Since we changed lead into gold pretty easily back in the 1970's, but didn't make a whole bunch, is because when the energy was factored in, the gold cost something like a million dollars to produce... If the people turning lead (or anything else) into gold had all the energy they could use, we could gild - nay, build - our houses with gold.

So I keep wondering why, instead of just saying, oh, poo-poo, there's no such thing, each of us doesn't at least try to find out, with what they have available. Some of Reich's gadgets are very easy to make. Google Reich, Tesla, Schauberger.

Anyway. Yes. Money.

reply to post by jackinthebox


Amen Jack! I am single, living with my partner of 10 years. We both work. He served 8 years in the military and came out to go to college. The job he originally took when he graduated is one of many in our area that have been sold out, now out of business. He is forced into the service industry now, I am also in the service industry, I did not grad high school, I did go to tech college and attain my business/business law certificate, I am a certified tax preparer and notary public, together we bring home crap for a payday, and every year we wind up with no refund, most years we have to pay more in addition to the money taken weekly from our hard earned paydays for federal taxes. I am sick to death of anyone thinking I don't pay taxes because I darn sure do! My nieghbor however can not work all year, stay home with the kiddies, and she will get a 2-3 thousand dollar refund every year, vacation, buy a car, whatever she wants to spend it on, while I pay every payday and again at the end of the year into the tax system. I haven't seen a vacation in 7 years! I don't have a credit card, my ex made sure our credit was ruined forever, this is why I won't burden my love with my name and bad credit, but he can't get a credit card himself, he doesn't have any bad credit marks, but he doesn't have any good ones either, and has grown accustomed to my lifestyle of if you don't have the cash for it, apparently you don't need it. We don't get suckered by schemes like title pawn or high interest furnuture payments. But we are struggling. There is no way to break this cycle of working poor, but we make the best of it, and remind ourselves what it is we are working for, a roof over our head and food in our belly, a little guilty pleasure here and there and hey, we are good. I feel for your situation Jack, and hope that someone out there can see your intelect and integrity like a lot of us on here do, and find a way for you to use it to get yourself a place to call home too.

When rent is $500/month, utilities $400 month, food a measly $100 month, and you make 960 month before taxes, FICA, etc. how in the world are you to survive? You are already $40/month in debt working 40+ hours a week with no debt from your gross paycheck, not your net.

What? I'm in Canada, and here it's not as high as in the US but still...

I work 40 hours a week, and I earn a little over the minimum wage.

My rent is 615$/month, utilities 150$/month, food merely 160$/month and rising... and I don't count the bus/car/cab... that makes 925$/month and I make 1040$ a month...that let me 115$ a month...and you cut back the earlier school debt I contracted because it was impossible otherwise... how the hell I am suppose to do more studies? If I go back in school, I won't be able to pay anything and I'll be thousands of dollar in debt in no time... goddamn... Yeah great farking society of freedom my ...

God Save the Irish.

The Irish Slave Trade

Just my 2 cents. I came from a hard working lower middle class family and had no advantages except for the fact I had a relatively stable existence growing up. Anything I wanted I had to basically work for to get. I started out in the service industry under a law that allowed me to work for under minimum wage when I started. I worked hard, put in way over 40 hours every week without being paid for the extra time. Even took an injury in the back which still haunts me to this day for the corporate world. I found it very easy to get into debt especially since the management of money was never taught to me in school nor by my parents. A couple hindered dollars for a water bed, then a car payment and before you know it all your income is being spent on things you think are required for living a good life. I felt as If I'm sure many do that having a car, and having nice things was a sign of respect or at the least bragging rights. So the solution for me was to either spend less or make more. I choose to make more and I did that through working hard in the service industry and quickly increased my salary through promotions. I felt that I had advanced by not only hard work but also by playing the game. Unfortunately I was being suckered in and didn’t even know it. Before you know it you have a wife, a house, a mortgage two cars and a dog. Here I am still in debt because I am buying all the things the world tells me that I need. I like to explain it like this. When I was a teenager I was always struggling to get an extra 10 or 20 bucks to go out on a date or to go somewhere with my friends. In my 20's was now struggling for a couple hundred bucks for rent, car payments, food, utilities, In my 30's I was struggling for a couple thousand bucks for the mortgage, two car payments, and the nice things my wife tells me we have to have. The point being is that I think the majority of Americans fall into this trap primarily from ignorance as well as being brain washed by society.

Slavery takes on many forms and yes I believe our current system is a form of slavery however you can not discount the fact that there is also a level of intelligence that plays into this. It is our own desires and lack of knowledge that allows us to be put into these situations. I am also aware that life throws cruel and unusual punches at us such as injuries etc. that can greatly compound the debt problem for people that may not have debt issues. For those people My sympathies are with you but you are the exception and not the rule and thus should be excluded from my writing here.

As far as the argument of poor people paying taxes I firmly believe and I'm sure I could prove that poor people do indeed pay taxes and probably pay a higher percentage than rich people. I used to help my employees out and do their taxes for them (for a small fee of course) and what really used to get me is that on the tax forms they would not only get all the money paid in taxes back as a refund but if they would also get more money back if they were able to claim the earned income tax credit for having children. I was really pissed that the government was just giving that money away to someone that didn’t work as hard as I did. What I realize know is that it is all relative. Yes that person may get back 3,000 extra dollars that they never paid into the system but for the most part most earned under 15,000 per year. However looking back on the lifestyles of these people I saw that everything they earned or that was given to them was paid back into the system. Even though they paid no income tax they still paid sales, taxes, communications taxes, etc etc. So even though on a tax form it showed no income tax the reality of the situation is when you add up all the misc taxes that portion represents a greater percentage of their income. An example A rich person pays the same amount for electricity as a poor person does however the poor person is paying a greater percentage of their income towards their electricity usage.

I'm a little long winded her but my points to ponder are these

We are not born with financial knowledge and therefore it is something that should be taught to us while we are in our youth.

I've never really understood why someone would complain about their financial situation and not do something about it. Why can't a person that makes minimum wage or $50,000 per year not work harder to gain the knowledge to increase their salaries. Why can't they go to school to learn a different trade, Why can’t they curb their spending habits to save some money? Why can't they use their god given intelligence to start their own business? For the most part I see it as an attitude problem. A person from another country can come to America with nothing except a strong sense of work ethic and a little bit of intelligence and quickly overcome the fat complacent Americans who choose to spend their money so foolishly. Perhaps they have given up and accepted their fate of being a slave to society. I used to and still get upset with the attitude of you owe me or I deserve this, but these people can't even make it to a job on time, much less work harder than 10% of their capacity.

Debt is sometimes good as long as it can be managed. I believe debt is good for the economy and for growing businesses but debt should not be used for everyday living expenses nor for standard of living. Why should you have to pay the bankers interest for something you could easily pay in cash? The only difference may be that you can’t have it right now. Face it, if you have that attitude you are behaving like a 3 year old.

Debt is the result of a conspiracy to enslave as well as a massive marketing campaign by the corporations to take as much of our money as possible. It is also the result of the citizens failing to recognize the above facts and to act upon it.