Taxi to the Darkside : APPALLING

Amazing! the comparison with Hitler's Nazis was close. No wonder these soldiers and the rest of the American population by association is a subject of hate. I cant imagine this was an isolated case, in any military things are repeated when they get results.

Sickening...is all I can say.
Amazing documentary and one worthy for every one to watch!
25 minutes in... Dick Cheney on "Meet The Press" a week after 9/11 stating about interrogation techniques... "A lot that needs to be done here has to be done quietly" and "we have to use any means at our disposal".
The whole situation with Iraq makes my blood boil, this is rubbing salt in my wounds! When will someone step up and address openly what is happening.
Wake up people... the nightmare is already upon us!

Originally posted by simon_alex0327
25 minutes in... Dick Cheney on "Meet The Press" a week after 9/11 stating about interrogation techniques... "A lot that needs to be done here has to be done quietly" and "we have to use any means at our disposal".

How about right after that when Professor Doug Cassel is interviewing John Yoo:

DC-"If the President deems that he's got to torture somebody, including by crushing the testicles of a person's child, there's no law that can sop that? That's what you wrote in the August 2002 memo"

JY-"I think it depends on why the president thinks he needs to do that"

So, by Yoo's logic it's OK as long as the President thinks he needs to do that.
You have got to be kidding me. This is truly appalling. I think the only difference between this and the Nazis is that the Nazis tortured their prisoners longer. We just kill them faster. Really makes me ashamed to be a fellow American as some of these soldiers.

reply to post by nyarlathotep


Star for your post, but I have to make pne counter-point. It's not the fault of the soldiers, it's the fault of leadership. The low-level boots on the ground were hung out to dry. One of the convicted even said he wished he had gone along with his own morals, but feared being labeled as a sympathizer of the enemy.

This has left me with a wide range of emotions. Sadness, hopelessness, anger, disgust.

This is heart sickening, and I cannot see my way through this world of madness anymore. I worry about the kind of world my daughter will have in 20 years. What is going to happen if this country doesn't start standing up and saying "NO MORE". No more of this. There is strength in numbers, and we do nothing. I do nothing. I gave up activism after being attacked on the street by someone who was pro-war. I have to be here for my child.

Of course *they* yank this film, and try to cover up this.....shame. This utter lack of humanity. Who wants to admit this is really happening.

you can download the bit torrent in perfect quality anytime...also hbo is going to show it.

This may seem slightly off topic, but I would encourage all of you that speak so harshly of this video to remember a few historical facts:

Vietnam Torture Masters - Video

USS Pueblo Reports


War Crimes - Cuban Vietnam Connection


I could go on, but the folks here at ATS seem to love researching things online, so please, all of you feel free to research torture during all major wars over the last 2- 300 years and do a bit of reading.

Does the fact that it has happened in each war make it right? No, not in my opinion, but lets take a more comprehensive look at torture rather than just todays recent events.

This documentary won an academy award this year. I watched it and I was not surprised by its content. After all Robert McNamara and General Lemay admitted that they would be tried as war criminals if they had lost WW2. This is public record.

It is sad, yet this is consistent throughout human history. Black, white, red, yellow, Christian, Muslim, Buddhists, Mormons, Atheists, Western society and Eastern society are all guilty.

Read any historical record of any war at any time in history and you see the same or worse.

The few times I am aware of the opposite would be the American Revolution. George Washington refused to mistreat English prisoners. In fact the treatment by Washington to the Redcoats (English) caused many of the English to surrender knowing that they would be fed and cared for!www.commondreams.org...

Abraham Lincoln madated torture of Confederate prisoners.
www.historyplace.com...
quote "It is therefore ordered that for every soldier of the United States killed in violation of the laws of war, a rebel soldier shall be executed; and for every one enslaved by the enemy or sold into slavery, a rebel soldier shall be placed at hard labor on the public works and continued at such labor until the other shall be released and receive the treatment due to a prisoner of war "


quote "A civil war is usually marked by an intensity in feeling and an atrociousness of conduct which is often lacking in wars between rival powers. It is fair to say that the War between the States was waged by the Lincoln administration with a barbarity rarely equalled in any other war in American history."
www.ihr.org...
We see the mistreatment of the true Americans by President Jackson when he defied the Supreme Court and ordered the Native Americans removed from there farms and homes in the Carolina’s, Georgia, Florida etc. Read “Indian Removal Act” Look at link below.en.wikipedia.org...

Mankind has not or very seldom have, risen to the level of compassion that we fool ourselves into thinking we are. “For all have sinned …” Let he who is without sin cast the first stone” St. Paul and Jesus
“Love conquers all” St. Paul
'Compassion and love are not mere luxuries.
As the source both of inner and external peace,
they are fundamental to the continued survival of our species.'
His Holiness the XIV Dalai Lama
“The Master said: “A man without love, what is courtesy to him? A man without love, what is music to him?” Confucius

Humanity can rise to the occasion from time to time but compassion, humility, and love appears to be rare in our history. War, torture, mistrust and hatred dominate our history.

To believe anything else is to be in denial of our basic nature. Mallow’s hierarchy of needs is based upon the idea that first we need security before we can move on toward morality. Is his hypothesis true?

Does survival trump morality?
www.businessballs.com...

[edit on 15-3-2008 by whiteraven]

[edit on 15-3-2008 by whiteraven]

reply to post by spyder207


I really hope that you are not trying to pose a sideways argument that because American POW's have been tortured in the past, that the US now reserves the right to torture prisoners. It is up to America to set the example if we are to maintain an semblance of righteousness in our endeavors.

reply to post by whiteraven

To believe anything else is to be in denial of our basic nature. Mallow’s hierarchy of needs is based upon the idea that first we need security before we can move on toward morality. Is his hypothesis true?

In a word, NO.

Torture stands in complete contradiction to the need for security. It only increases the threat posed against us, while at the same time serving no benefit. Add to this, that torture is in direct violation of the values which the US claims to be liberating the world with. After all, what difference does it make if people are being tortured by Saddam Hussein or George Bush?

Furthermore, your sideshow arguments highlighting torture in tha past are a clear propoganda tactic. Never before has the United States systematically imprisoned, tortured, and murdered innocents by the tens of thousands.

Whiteraven, I suggest reading up on Maslow's hierarchy. He never really discusses morality.

Onward.. The issue is not that "at other times torture has happened so get over it." Not many of us just fell off the turnip truck. The issue is that this was not rogue officers or grunts "doing what needs to be done." Rather, it is torture being tacitly (and most likely directly) approved by the executive branch, lawyers for the executive twisting legal language to the point it broke to make is "seem" legal. Think Clinton's "it depends on what the definition of 'is' is" quote; except this legalese allows us to "crush a child's testicles if the 'need' arises."
Now I am not gonna go off the deep end and start yelling Nazi's!!! Because as soon as you do, you lose the argument. But, this is illegal activity, from the standpoint of U.S. and international law, period. It is not arguable if you actually go look at the law. Those who allowed this to happen need to be held accountable for the sake of the soul of MY country.


Obs out

reply to post by jackinthebox



First I need to define we. We, in the context I am using encompasses all of humanity. If I try to observe history I see more war then I do actions of peace.

I completely agree that torture serves no purpose. Yet it is still practiced in many societys. Why? Would the answer to the "why" involve the very nature of humanity?

You stated that never before has the United States tortured, imprisoned, murdered tens of thousands.

I wish this was true.

Look at the period of US history known as the Indian Wars. They systymaticaly tortured, murdered and killed whole societies.
www.u-s-history.com...


The US goverment has murdered, tortured and imprisoned many of my families ancestors.

Did you look at the Civil War? If a Union soldier was thought to have been placed into "forced labour" so would the confederate soldier.
By the way, the Chickasaw, the tribe my family belongs to, where the last to surrender. We believed in state rights even after being betrayed by Andrew Jackson.

I like your posts Jack. I apologize that you may have seen my post as pro torture. It is not. I wanted to lay out the beginning of case showing that humanity has practiced torture (including American Indians) for a long time and it shows the base side of our nature.

reply to post by observer


Observer, I suggest you read Maslows hierarchy of needs Look at the very top of the triangle....it reads morality. en.wikipedia.org...'s_hierarchy_of_needs

en.wikipedia.org...:Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs.svg

Also..quote "Maslow writes the following...They have a system of morality that is fully internalized and independent of external authority"

Also "Maslow also proposed that people who have reached self-actualization will sometimes experience a state he referred to as "transcendence," in which they become aware of not only their own fullest potential, but the fullest potential of human beings at large. He described this transcendence and its characteristics in an essay in the posthumously published The Farther Reaches of Human Nature. (see flow)." Quote from Farther Reaches of Human Nature

Again, I apologize for the misreading you undertook when viewing my thread.

I have had to look into Maslow for some very personal reasons that I hope no one in ATS ever has to undertake.

With all of the above in mind I would like to quote a former US prisoner of war.....Kurt Vonnegut take on the meaning of life in view of his past sufferings " "We're all here to fart around. Don't let anyone tell you any different!"
Peace...

Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by spyder207

 

I really hope that you are not trying to pose a sideways argument that because American POW's have been tortured in the past, that the US now reserves the right to torture prisoners. It is up to America to set the example if we are to maintain an semblance of righteousness in our endeavors.

And I would hope that your issueis with torture of prisoners of war and not just with our military men and women. Where is the outrage for our tortured troops?

Example
Example 2
Another Source

Why don't any of you complain about these actions which were taken against our military??

reply to post by spyder207


Of course there's outrage about the torture of our troops, but that doesn't give anybody the right to impose the same kind of treatment on other human beings. This isn't a competition, bud.

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
reply to post by spyder207

 

Of course there's outrage about the torture of our troops, but that doesn't give anybody the right to impose the same kind of treatment on other human beings. This isn't a competition, bud.

If there is outrage like you mention, how about focusing it on the issue and not the individuals currently in the media. Show your disgust by mentioning all of the infractions, not just those of your own countrymen.

I tire of all the constant complaining about our military by those that are not, have not and will not serve. Focus your attention on the disease not the symptoms.

BTW, I am not your bud.

[edit on 15-3-2008 by spyder207]

reply to post by whiteraven


My misread whiteraven, apologies. These threads get so long and many people just "scream." It makes it difficult to sort out the wheat from the chafe sometimes.
I stand corrected on Maslow. It has been a long time since I read those psych textbooks (though that is not really an excuse). I took your comments as saying that we are not secure therefore have the "right" to be immoral. (again, I think I misread that).

Generally, I am just getting tired of having people claim America's right to torture under the idea of the "ticking time bomb". Torture is torture. I am not oblivious, I understand that in war time crappy things happen, normal men and women (on both sides) do things they would normally consider unconscionable. It sucks, they should be prosecuted, but it happens. In the case of the U.S. post-9/11 however, there was a conscious effort to subvert the law of the nation and world, by perverting the idea of what torture is. This was done in a way to provide the top command with plausible deniability. It really is sickening.
I have many family members that are either retired or active military and they are all (but one) horrified at the turn of thought on torture; because they were taught all through military school that it was wrong and immoral but also because they (like me) were raised to think that we (the U.S.) were the "good guys" and would not stoop to that. Lastly, they are horrified at the idea of a real war, as opposed to a war on an adjective like "terror". If we went to war with Russia, China, Canada, whoever, we would not have a moral leg to stand on if they tortured our soldiers as all they would have to do is point back at Gitmo, Abu Ghrab, Bagram and say "ummm you do it".

I just want people (on this board in particular) to understand that this is not a liberal/conservative issue, this is a moral and legal issue, and that has no party affiliation.

Obs out

reply to post by jackinthebox


Obviously you missed the predominant point of my post. I am disappointed but I expected such a response.

I just hope your "rage" as well as the lump all of America into an evil stew mentality I see infused into this thread can somehow be channeled into something positive and memorable for the purpose of change.

reply to post by whiteraven


I humbly apologize for my display of ignorance. I completely forgot about the Native Americans. The only weak argument I can make against that, is that I would hope that America would have evolved from that point by now.

All of the headway that has been made over the years, lifting humanity above the most base and evil instincts of our animalistic nature, seems to have come crashing down under this Administration. All of the rights granted, injustices abolished, and equalities applied are for naught.

Thousands of years of history, to end up in the same place. All of this work to banish the beast from our souls, and to imprison it within the boundaries of justice and reason, only to have this one Administration open the gates to let the beast run wild once again. And now the beast is disquised as righteous.

EDIT to add: As far as the Civil War goes, I don't agree that the level of torture meets what we are seeing today. Furthermore, we are talking about men in uniform, who were still bound by the rules of war, however harsh they may have been at the time. What we have seen in this video, is the systematic torture and murder of civilians who have been proven guilty of nothing.



[edit on 3/15/0808 by jackinthebox]

reply to post by spyder207

And I would hope that your issueis with torture of prisoners of war and not just with our military men and women. Where is the outrage for our tortured troops? ...Why don't any of you complain about these actions which were taken against our military??

Because that is not the topic of this thread.

If you had read what I posted previously in this thread, you would see that I am actually sympathetic toward the soldiers who were left hung out to dry in this scandal. My fight is with the leadership that has underhandedly implemented routine torture and suspended any semblance of justice.

If America does not hold itslef to a higher standard, then the enemy has already won. Evil now reigns where justice once stood.