Chi disproved?

reply to post by rizla


Chi is Chi, its naturally occurring just like a mineral or a metal.
Hard Style (external) only denotes how it was manifested,,, a person used a "Hard Style" marial arts form to generate Chi versus a "Soft or Internal Style).
Chi resides in the bodies of all of us, Hard or Extenal Styles use and exhaust the resident Chi flowing in the body.
The purpose of Thia Chi Wyan and mediation, Chi Qong,, is to replenish the residual Ch in your body, and learn to harness the natural flow of Chi energy form the earth into your body and outwards to whatever function you desire.
Playing with Chi balls, and knocking people around on a video to me is mis-application of the discipline.

reply to post by Jazzyguy

Feng shui, is a Japanese discipline I'm not sure it they attribute or recognize the engergy as "Chi" as part of their practice.
JM

Can we get this thread moved to "paranormal research", as it has nothing whatsoever to do with science. Chi has never, ever, EVER been demonstrated in a scientific experiment. As far as scientific evidence is concerned, there is no such thing as Chi. If it's that easy to use Chi, and if it's everywhere, why hasn't any scientist noticed its effects and come up with a hypothesis? Because no scientists have seen it, and no hypothesis can be formed on an imaginary happening.

But please, don't let me rain on your make-stuff-up-as-you-go-and-believe-anything-that-you-want-to parade.

reply to post by dave420

"Can we get this thread moved to "paranormal research", as it has nothing whatsoever to do with science."

Moderator can move whenever he feels it is apropite

" Chi has never, ever, EVER been demonstrated in a scientific experiment. As far as scientific evidence is concerned, there is no such thing as Chi. "

Because science has yet to disprove the existence of "Chi", then I feel comfortable saying its possible.

"If it's that easy to use Chi"

I said it takes dicipline to learn to harness the power of Chi. I never said it was easy.


"why hasn't any scientist noticed its effects and come up with a hypothesis? Because no scientists have seen it"

Have you read anywhwere where scientists went looking for it and couldnt find it?
Did you skip a lot of High School science classes?

Originally posted by jbmitch
reply to post by dave420

 

"Can we get this thread moved to "paranormal research", as it has nothing whatsoever to do with science."

Moderator can move whenever he feels it is apropite

" Chi has never, ever, EVER been demonstrated in a scientific experiment. As far as scientific evidence is concerned, there is no such thing as Chi. "

Because science has yet to disprove the existence of "Chi", then I feel comfortable saying its possible.

"If it's that easy to use Chi"

I said it takes dicipline to learn to harness the power of Chi. I never said it was easy.


"why hasn't any scientist noticed its effects and come up with a hypothesis? Because no scientists have seen it"

Have you read anywhwere where scientists went looking for it and couldnt find it?
Did you skip a lot of High School science classes?

Yawn. I've seen and felt it in action. Indeed, not only in Tai Chi either. Perhaps if you made an effort to go and see it in action, you would change your mind. But you have your preset opinion, and why let reality get in the way of that? See my sig.

This is ridiculous. Anecdotal evidence is enough for you to believe something? There's nothing a rational mind can bring to this discussion if you are willing to accept things as fact without any evidence what-so-ever.

I've not made my mind up, I just know that I can't assume everything to be real until at least some evidence is provided. If I did, then all life would be full of nutjobs claiming their cat can channel Elvis, and people would have to believe them.

You wouldn't sell your house if someone came up to you and told you it was going to be destroyed in a couple of months - you'd demand some evidence first. Why don't you have such a critical mind when it comes to things you want to be true? Double standards suck.

People might think they've "felt" Chi, but that's baseless, anecdotal evidence which has no place in the scientific method. The person might believe with their whole heart they felt it, but then because people can so easily be mistaken, it's not evidence.

Scientists investigate phenomena they can witness - either directly or indirectly. The lucrative reward of finding evidence, and using, "chi" would be astronomical, so it seems strange no-one's made the seemingly-easy step of harnessing it in a clinical trial. Heck - Randi would pay anyone who can demonstrate chi a cool million bucks. Weird how none of these chi practitioners have done that and handed the money over to charity.

Either "chi" practitioners can't practice it on demand in a clinical trial, or they're so selfish they wouldn't spend a day earning a million bucks for ill kids.

reply to post by dave420

"This is ridiculous. Anecdotal evidence is enough for you to believe something? "

What is ridiculous to you is real to me,,I dont get to always do the things everyday that involve "Chi". I have on numerous occassions generated and directed "Chi" energy for myself and some friends.

I think its interesting to see you jump from the emperical scientific method, to capitalism and the generating of wealth,,

Basically as others have said ,, if You want to know or learn about Chi,,go to someone who has the credintials to teach it to you. If you arent so inclined then stay with your test tube science and leave us with our "mysticism".

Originally posted by dave420
This is ridiculous. Anecdotal evidence is enough for you to believe something? There's nothing a rational mind can bring to this discussion if you are willing to accept things as fact without any evidence what-so-ever.

Sigh. I'm repeating myself here. I have seen and felt it in action. In fact it is you who are being irrational. You are denying the reality of something when you have no evidence for or against it. You have no evidence either way.

You are like the Greeks. They assumed that a heavy ball falls faster than a light ball. Then Galileo tested it...

You think are scientific, but in fact you are not. See my sig.

reply to post by rizla


Just because you've seen and felt something doesn't mean your explanations for it are real. That's like some kid feeling the wind and thinking it was God pushing them along - heck - they felt it happen, man! It must be the first explanation that pops into their head.

Please - don't compare me to the Greeks about this one - you're the one who's foregoing evidence to jump to your own conclusion, not me. I'm asking for evidence before I leap on the Chi Train.

So far there is absolutely ZERO evidence for Chi, no matter what you've personally experienced. The world can't run on anecdotal evidence - we got out of that phase of our development somewhere around the 1600s. Apparently some of us are still there.

reply to post by dave420


You're not listening. I didn't expect you to. You are doing exactly as the Greeks, as are the other defenders of the established truth. I can do the ouija board, with three other people I can lift a person up with our fingers as if they are as light as a feather. You can go and test it yourself. All these things prove that established science's view of the world is incomplete. But you won't actually do these tests because you have a preset opinion. See my sig.

[edit on 20-3-2008 by rizla]

reply to post by rizla


The ouija board has been shown to be caused by the ideomotor effect. As for you lifting people with your fingertips, unless you do it in a controlled environment, there is nothing to test, as what you claim is anecdotal evidence, which is not a sound enough basis for a hypothesis.

It's up to those making the claims to provide the evidence, and until that happens, the claims are just that - claims devoid of evidence, and should be treated as such.

It's not up to other people to prove you right, but for you to perform the experiments yourself. Otherwise, to not perform the experiments, and to accept it's "real", you've done exactly what you said I have, to not want to challenge your accepted idea of reality.

I want my view of reality challenged. I want to learn of new and fantastic phenomena such as telekinesis and Chi, but unfortunately, plenty of people have looked for scientific evidence (which, if these phenomena do what people like you say they do, should be readily available) and found absolutely zero.

So please, continue to embrace ignorance. I'll be learning, and you'll still be living in denial about the real world, scared to embrace science in case it points out what you believe to be unsubstantiated bunkum.

I'm talking from experience here, Chi is just a visualization tool. This site is about denying ignorance, in all my years training in martial arts I have never seen anyone throw energy balls or knock people over from across a room.
People who beleive in Chi as a force that can be manipulated outside the body tend to also beleive people like Cris Angel and Derren Brown have "real powers" (Derren already stating that he has no special powers).
I think as a visualization tool it helps to condition the mind and body to work together more efficently. It's easy to get caught up in the myths and to blindly follow a teacher, being told that "you should feel this or that" without any real proof.



[edit on 20-3-2008 by Kurokage]

reply to post by Kurokage


Thank you for your input - a very logical analysis of Chi and Chi believers.

If it was possible for Chi to do the things its believers claim, science would be using it to power devices, for computer interfaces, for use in the military, etc. Any scientist who discovered it would set themselves up for life in the academic field, having all sorts of stuff named after them, and any job they wanted in their field in any university.

Something as tantalising as a force people can exert at a distance is the very candy many hundreds of thousands of scientsts (some of who are martial-arts practitioners) are looking for.

People get too swept up in things they want to believe, and ignore stuff they don't want to believe. So for those people, something they believe deeply has to be disproven before they will not beleve it, as opposed to the more rational approach of something having to be accurately and repeatedly demonstrated before it's accepted as being legitimate.

For jbmitch, rizla, and others in here who have experienced Chi and know it to be a form of energy that cannot be measured with physical instruments - as is demonstrated in the John Chang video I posted earlier - and who try to spread that higher awareness, here are more videos which demonstrates Chi in action:

Qigong Practitioner Projects Chi

Dim Mak Practitioner Projects Chi

Chi-Telekinesis At Work

reply to post by Paul_Richard

For jbmitch..

I find it hard to believe that a master (in this case a "Grandmaster" the only level that is allowed more than one student) would actually share this (Dim Mak) techique with any outsiders "uninitiated" The Thai Chi that he is using looks like the 108 Southern Shaolin discipline. Dim Mak is one of the most feared of bare hand techniques,, entirely deadly and usually as the video presents,, you potential iniatate has to be "family" meaning no white guys allowed,,,

Dave240: There is more than "Chi" that exists beyond emperical science,,stay inside your warm and fuzzy ball and dont challege the high walls of western ignorance,, your life probably is better off not knowing what Asian and Hindu Culture has known and considered common knowlege long before white man came to the Americas,

I'm causian from southern european DNA blood line so I'll only be able to acheive a fraction of the potenial of "Chi" and the world that it involves. To get anywhere close to a "Grandmaster's level, you pretty much need to be born into the culture as a child,,,
Yes,, you will claim culture programing to believe something,,the simple fact (and it doesnt have to submit to your empericism) is this discipline is practiced by millions I suppose, not of whom are martial artists. If your rants were ever taken seriously by someone skilled,, a simple touch from Dim Mak would teach you the reality as the reporter learned,,,personally you can rant all you want , your are welcome to your lack of insight,,
This evening as I go through my system under the early moon, next to a small lake I'll think of you and smile,, as the energy of Chi flows through my body ,, re-energizing me for another day,

Hi jbmitch,

Originally posted by jbmitch
I find it hard to believe that a master (in this case a "Grandmaster" the only level that is allowed more than one student) would actually share this (Dim Mak) technique with any outsiders "uninitiated" The Thai Chi that he is using looks like the 108 Southern Shaolin discipline. Dim Mak is one of the most feared of bare hand techniques,, entirely deadly and usually as the video presents,, you potential initiate has to be "family" meaning no white guys allowed,,,

Which is probably one of the reasons why there were no regular Caucasian students in his class and why we don't see a chain of Dim Mak schools opening up in the United States.

Originally posted by jbmitch
I'm Caucasian from southern European DNA blood line so I'll only be able to achieve a fraction of the potential of "Chi" and the world that it involves. To get anywhere close to a "Grandmaster's level, you pretty much need to be born into the culture as a child,,,

I have to disagree with you on that point.

Western culture on this planet has its own interpretation of that energy, as they just call it different names, e.g., a Gift of Healing, Reiki, "The Holy Spirit," a Gift from God, etc.

God Force, Ki, Chi, Prana, The Force, etc., all represent the same spectrum of energy: the nonliving and infinite Light on the Other Side which is projected down into us and through us by those who are in The Light.

So maybe the Group Entities which power and empower people like the Dim Mak practitioner (I avoid using the term "master" unless it is in reference to a Magi or lesser god, or a Space God or Elder) are not available to you as much because you were not born and raised in that Asian culture. But one can still pursue Chi studies and occasionally channel that energy, just as you have.

Originally posted by jbmitch
This evening as I go through my system under the early moon, next to a small lake I'll think of you and smile,, as the energy of Chi flows through my body ,, re-energizing me for another day,

Great idea.

Even better if you did that while using Heart Chakra Radiance so you can become a lesser god after death.



[edit on 21-3-2008 by Paul_Richard]

reply to post by Paul_Richard


When I say the full scale of "Chi" and the discpline around it,, I speak of the Grandmasters ,,Immortals of Taoism, and although White guys can go to china and recieve a great deal of training I dont see any of us obtaining the state of "Immortal" if you are familiar with the term as it is applied to Taoism who take the "vows" of renunciation,,,

For me,, Chakra stimulation is much akin to Chi Qoung the mediative activity of guiding "Chi" through the body to innervate blocked meridians and activate ,, center,s which I think the Chinese and the Hindu pretty much match up. Its just that I do standing not sitting mediation,, this is to expedite the flow of Yang energy from the earth,, I was told that sitting blocks the channeling of the lower body, again this is a martial arts approach to harnessing "Chi". Or at least what is taught in my area,, my Seefus had a strong association with the Waa Lom Kung Fu Temple in Florida but did take many a trip to china to reaffirm his pursuits and status as a "Master" one authorized to teach others,,,,

Originally posted by jbmitch
...I was told that sitting blocks the channeling of the lower body

Interesting appraisal that I have not heard of before.

I guess that would depend on the Chi manifestation.

Originally posted by jbmitch
...again this is a martial arts approach to harnessing "Chi". Or at least what is taught in my area,, my Sifus had a strong association with the Waa Lom Kung Fu Temple in Florida but did take many a trip to china to reaffirm his pursuits and status as a "Master" one authorized to teach others,,,,

What style of Kung Fu martial arts do you practice?

I am a Jeet Kune Do practitioner.

reply to post by Paul_Richard

Started as a youngin with Korean form of KU Funfu in South Carolina but it was rudimentary,,next was simple hand to hand techniques taught to Special Forces in the early 70's. Bumped into an SH friend who was a practicing Budahhist and I accompanied him to a School in Fayetteville,,, Ft. Bragg. The sifus there taught a varity of hard style that I watched but was never a devotee,,He (my friend) did start me on the Peking Compulsory 24 form. I didnt know it then but he was working on Iron Palm and training phyically to learn the rudiments of Dim Mak.
I stay with the internal applications of Thai Chi when doing everything form QiQong to the Compluspory 24 (Peking), the Bow,,(beginners) (the quarter staff Bow) not bow and arrow. I enjoy focusing on the balance of breathing and movement and almost flow with the Chi ,,it almost guides me along. There are times when my Seefus would remark "who taught you that" as you should only have one master at time. I would reply "it seemed a natural extension of what I already knew. I when and made a "practice staff out of steel pipe" he said that was for advance work only ,,I told him it just came to me in mediation and I did it,, I assured him I had no other teacher. There is a group of us who share different things and we like to watch vids of other styles,, Bagwaa, Wyn Chung, Chou Lee Fyte, and other styles.
We even practice tea drinking ceremonies, and standing mediation to Tibetan Chimes and Tibetan Intonation (internal resonance) with the Meditation.

Originally posted by Paul_Richardas is demonstrated in the John Chang video I posted earlier

I don't accept or deny that the demonstration in the initial video is real. In my experience, I have not been convinced personally that chi is able to effect people with physical contact.

Hmmm. Actually, it is possible to feel chi without touch, but I don't know that it is possible to move objects using chi without touch.

Funnily enough, I felt it once when a group of evangelicals 'exorcised' me.

[edit on 21-3-2008 by rizla]