The state of 9/11 Truth: not pretty

Originally posted by coughymachine

You're not talking to 'too many truthers', you're talking to me. You have precious little knowledge of what I believe other than that I feel the official account is flawed. Further, by virtue of the fact you acknowledge no one has all the answers, you have even accepted that there are unanswered questions.

You are correct on that point, and I apologize for lumping you into a general category.

As for asking questions- I don't think there's anything wrong with finding out what went wrong, and fixing it. I don't think endless questioning is helpful though, because it doesn't necessarily result in solutions.
I think there were people that dropped the ball prior to, and on 9/11. It hasn't been proven to me that there was a criminal or treacherous intent though. Until that happens, I'm not inclined to go on a witch hunt.
It has never been demonstrated to me, that anyone in government, businesses, the military, etc.. had the willingnesss or capacity to murder 3000 of their own, purely for better stock dividends. It's just like at a trial where you look at the background of the accused, to see if there was any patterns that would lead you to believe them likely to have done something. That has to be weighed in, especially if there isn't other material evidence. Terrorists on the other hand have demonstrated their willingness to kill anybody- women, children, young, old, friend, foe, if it achieved the goal they wanted.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
Terrorists on the other hand have demonstrated their willingness to kill anybody- women, children, young, old, friend, foe, if it achieved the goal they wanted.

I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle.

Not according to Usama Bin Laden himself.

Source: Khilafah.com, 10 Oct 2001

You're right. It's the muslim impersonators that commit all the terror attacks around the world, because true muslims would never condone violence right?

reply to post by BlueRaja



Well, I'm pretty sure Timothy McVeigh was a Christian. Do we want to lump all Christians as terrorists also?

Operation Northwoods anyone? Why would our government even conceive of such a plan if it wasn't prepared to carry it out?

Condy Rice lied when she said they never thought about terrorists using planes as weapons, why would they come clean about complicity involving 9/11? would that be because of US citizens possibly suing the government? I bet that would cost the govt trillions of dollars. Show me one person that would side with the govt in a case like that.

Wag the dog, the military lost over two trillion, it was reported on 9/10 I never heard about that after 9/11.

reply to post by Griff


Weak analogy. It's pretty disengenuous to claim that Muslims couldn't commit acts of terror, because they belong to the religion of peace. I never said all Muslims, or even most Muslims committed acts of terror, but when you post a clip trying to excuse Bin Laden, because as a Muslim he wouldn't lie, etc...

You do understand that in Islam, lying to infidels is justified, among other things that Bin Laden was trying to say he wouldn't do.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
It's pretty disengenuous to claim that Muslims couldn't commit acts of terror, because they belong to the religion of peace.

I never claimed any such thing. My point is that anyone can be pushed to commit acts of terror if they feel they are justified.

I was only responding to what you said about terrorists killing innocents if it achieves their goal. Which, I can agree to.

Now that I re-read the posts and everything, I think I took what you said the wrong way. Apologies.

Just as a general response to the question of the employment of terrorism as a tactic.

Operation Northwoods is great for demonstrating the diabolical thinking of the US military, since the whole plan was set out in glorious detail. Fortunately, as far as we know, nothing like it was ever implemented.

But another campaign was, and it lasted for over a decade. It involved NATO, the CIA and a whole host of European governments, most notably, the Italians.

For some reason, this actual, real-world example of US-sponsored terrorism takes a back seat to a plan that was never actioned. It really shouldn't.

I'm referring, of course, to Operation Gladio and the Strategy of Tension.

The more I read comments by people who argue the US couldn't and wouldn't commit acts of terrorism against civilians, the more I wonder what mechanism prevents them from letting go of this position, even in the face of a series of confessions and a condemnatory EU Resolution.

Before you judge our progress, what is our goal?

We could arrest everyone that was involved and put them away so none of the rest of us will ever have to worry about them again. But then new scum will just take their place, in a matter of no time. There is plenty to go around at "the top."

We could re-vamp our institutions in a way that we feel is most self-respectful and diminishing of corruption within our home lands, but that has plenty of its own complications, and not even the original Constitution we wrote stood the test of mass medias and trillion-dollar budgets.

9/11 was just a splash in the bucket towards waking people up in general. 9/11 was a tragedy but the bigger tragedy is what generated it and all the other death and manipulation that surrounds us as a nation, that we (as US citizens at least) can hardly help but to implicitly encourage simply by living here and putting up with it to various degrees.

Everything about the way we live today needs to change and since that is a simple statement of fact and not a recommendation, the proof will come when everything comes to a halt, all on its own, by processes that are natural and logical to everyone who is watching this happen with their eyes open. Everything from people living 65,000 individuals to a square mile and having everything to sustain them sent to their city in masses, to so many people basically offering up their bodies to go fight wars for wealthy businesses, we Americans in general do extremely ignorant things and should be a little more attentive and reflective on what it is that we are doing individually that is helping things like 9/11 to occur.

Every time we buy gas,
every time we use money at all,
every time we eat polluted food,
every time we are forced to rely on someone else for where we get our food,
or our heat,
or our shelter,
and every time we get our heads too wrapped up into the details to see what's really happening to us,
we hurt ourselves. Because those are all things that "the system" has set up, that depend on it, and thus make you depend on them.

But we all do it, even if for no other reason than we can hardly get ourselves out of the daily grind anymore, or even able and willing to just leave it be when and where it breaks. That doesn't mean there aren't ways out, of always being in total control of your own actions and never having to worry about total catastrophe. But most people would probably not even be interested in those ways of life. That's the exact same apathy and ignorance that allowed 9/11 in the first place, but so be it, because it's ultimately a personal loss. Don't anyone here ever mistake me for someone who isn't having a blast either way. You can all do what you want!

I think the progress you are talking about, is progress that is reflected by the mainstream media, politicians, etc., which will never happen. They're a vital part of the beast that caused this, they can only go down with it.

And as far as I'm concerned anymore 9/11 was just something that makes that many more people that much more aware of what is going on, on the more massive scales in the world. Nothing more is needed from it for us to progress.

[edit on 11-3-2008 by bsbray11]

Tell me how 4 dollars a gallon is not a conspiracy against the people?! Come on, now.

As for 9/11... as awesome as science has done in giving us the answers we seek on this matter (cough COUGH!), it's far more interesting that the untrained eye can easily identify what is wrong with the whole picture.

We trust our superiors, both in social workings and in intellect, to give us the answers.

First mistake, last mistake.

Trust ourselves. Just cuz Mr. Basement Physicist (not referring to anyone in particular) likes to argue, throw around numbers, and make people who don't speak scientifically feel stupid for asking questions, doesn't make the smartass right.

If you're a girl, and find one of your husband's/boyfriend's shirts with lipstic around the collar, you can either believe his rediculous story about how it was all a complicated practical joke, you can do nothing and bottle up your anger and uncertainty, or you can flat out ask "Were you cheating on me?" Obviously, the answer is yes. It's all a matter of admitting this to ourselves.

Some people will always be satisfied with the official story because, like the battered girlfriend, they believe that the USA is really actually a decent guy, despite his horrendous behaviour, despite what other people outside the relationship say about him.

What else have we known, the majority of us, other than this? A life outside of the comfort zone of the okeedokee perfect country we live in? We've never really been there for generations, so it's to be expected that to wean the masses off complete blind faith in the good ole brand name we all grew up with, it's gunna take a while. It's gunna take a couple more slaps in the face. That's just how it is. You can't rush revolution.

The media and newscasters try to make it seem like anyone who disagree's with the "official" 9-11 story is a conspirator or nutball...thats why theres no media exposure and most people still believe that our government had no influence in the attacks...

It boils down to ignorant people- Those who chose not to believe what they are told and those who have the power to slam those who strive for the truth...

Corruption at its best. Thats why Bush and Cheney are still walking around freely- because there's just too much cover-up and "lunacy" accusations being thrown around for anyone to take the 9-11 cover-up seriously...

I don't trust a word the government says and I tell everyone that tries to convince me otherwise that they are foolish.

You have to constantly question everything thats happening- don't accept someone else's view, only yours! In other words- don't believe what others say or believe, believe what you feel. And I feel like our government is beyond saving and full of corruption. Our forefathers legacies are now gone and forgotten. The fragments of hope I have left that the 9-11 truth will come out does not give me a feeling that in the end everything will be alright. If the truth gets out- the country will rebel- and they damn well should. Its our right to fight for our beliefs. This goes beyond that.

RIP to ALL victims of 9-11. Not just the ones in the towers but the war as well...

"Gone but never forgotten."

Originally posted by BlueRaja


In science you conduct experiments. When you get the same results each time, then you can feel confident in claiming a proof. In law you use evidence to arrive at innocence or guilt. The Truth movement has come to a conclusion first, and then tried to find supporting evidence. This is poor scientific or legal methodology. The fact that I don't have all the answers doesn't make me disbelieve that hijackers crashed planes into the WTC. It's not a matter of blindly accepting the government's story. It's a matter of no alternate theory has adequately explained a more plausible story, with hard facts and supporting evidence.

Very, very, very, very well said !!!


I think my favorite thing is that truthers have already decided guilt before even walking in the courtroom-so to speak.



[edit on 11-3-2008 by jfj123]

Originally posted by IsaacKoi
Hi JThomas,

Your link does not appear to work.

I think this is the video you intended to embed:

All the best,

Isaac

Many thanks, Isaac.

Congrats on initiating what has turned into a very good thread with thought-provoking contributions from many. Refreshing to see discourse on this subject which is not (yet) full of religious 'it was an inside job! I know!' zealots, who unfortunately degrade the level of debate and discredit the 'truth' movement almost as much as Alex Jones.

Going back to the OP:

Originally posted by jthomas
The 9/11 Truth Movement goes on convinced of its hold on the truth but having made no progress in convincing others in six years of trying

True statement. Unlikely to change, unless or until someone produces some evidence which convinces the open-minded and thus far unconvinced.

The history of actions of successive US administrations over the past 50 years, covert ops, undermining foreign governments, concealing the ET evidence (big one, that) is not a very encouraging one either for transparency or adherence to openness or democratic principles. However, with the 9/11 thing, there just isn't anything - yet - which might stand up in court. Just 'questions'. Endless 'questions' but no answers. People are bored with it, quite frankly.

Speaking personally I've seen all the 'Loose Change' videos and read two of the books, but remain profoundly unconvinced by all the tenuous claims, misinformed opinions and manipulated 'facts' which don't in the end amount to a hill of beans. I just have the overwhelming sensation of being evangelized at by The True Believers, which tends to produce the opposite effect to that intended.

I think this situation would profoundly change if any convincing evidence were ever produced of inside complicity. You know, insiders going on the public record (a la Disclosure Project for instance), documents, a paper trail, real individuals, names, money transfers, something definite. Looking at another youtube video of WTC1/2 falling and claiming with banner headlines '100% proof of controlled demolitions!' just puts people off in the millions, when it's proved to be nothing of the kind.

Here is an excellent example of 9/11 Truth's current state. Giulietto Chiesa, member of the European Parliament, organized a 9/11 truth "event" on Feb 26, with speakers, including DRG promoting yet another book on 9/11, at the Parliament and invited 1,000 journalists to attend.

ZERO attended. Not one journalist showed up. Zero.

And how does Giulietto Chiesa explain this? Just watch:

www.youtube.com...

Isn't his rant about The United States the most blatantly paranoid and quite frankly mad outburst you ever heard from a serving politician? I suppose since Catholicism is on the decline in Italy and belief in The Devil as the source of all evil has become unfashionable, a substitute needs to be found. Congrats America: you get the role.

How about this for a textbook example of self-deception? It never occurs to him that his dumb 9/11 CT event didn't interest anybody, or that people might have had better things to do.

Is it lack of interest? ...Nothing has surfaced in years from the 9/11 Truth Movement - it's all rehash...

Unfortunately the answer is yes, mainly due to the amount of 'inside job' ranting combined with the lack of evidence to support any alternative credible theory. The 'Truth' movement in the popular mind is becoming rather tainted as a bunch of nutters on the fringe.

Which is a pity, because there may be something in it.

...and it's not pretty for the 9/11 Truth Movement

Seems so. Might change, but little sign of that at the moment.






[edit on 11-3-2008 by jthomas]

[edit on 11-3-2008 by jthomas]

You are right, all of us who are skeptical of the official explanation should once and for all submit to you proud crusaders of truth and reason who so honorably defend and promote the "official" story, because the official story needs yours and all of ours support.

I'm sorry for the sarcasm but I'm tired of this debate.

Originally posted by coughymachine
reply to post by BlueRaja

 

Look, with the best will in the world, we're going nowhere.

It would be impossible to construct a scenario that was analogous simply because the government and issues involved are so extraordinarily complex. I just wanted to demonstrate that, when one of the entities suspected of a crime develops and controls the evidence, clearly there is a conflict of interest.

I just came back to this thread after starting it this morning and the posts here are fully illustrative of the problem 9/11 Truthers are having reasoning.

I have to compliment BlueRaja for being the calm voice of reason, as always. He understands and articulates the issue quite clearly but 9/11 Truthers like coughymachine illustrate quite clearly what happens when one is not actually listening.

9/11 Truthers don't listen by nature. They talk, but the ability to listen and understand is overwhelmed by a need to proselytize about the "truth" they are certain they possess, and the "questions" (already addressed) that they are certain have "never been answered."

Coughymachine illustrates the problem with 9/11 Truth quite clearly: it's based on an entirely faulty premise, never once questioned by 9/11 Truthers. And that premise is that the 9/11 Truthers have decided the "government" is a "suspect", even a "defendant" in a crime, all without ever being able to articulate why the "government", as opposed to anyone else should be a suspect in the attacks of 9/11.

The 9/11 Truth Movement has been quite clear from the beginning. This is what it is actually saying:

"WE say such an event as 9/11 could not be carried out by 19 hijackers alone. There MUST be someone or something much bigger behind it. WE say it could only be the US Government that had the power and capability to pull off 9/11. WE say the US Government is hiding the truth from us. WE say that the attack on Iraq followed 9/11 therefore, WE say the government had a motive and, therefore WE say 9/11 was committed by the US Government to justify the attack on Iraq. Therefore, WE will prove that the US Government was behind 9/11."

Therefore, as coughymachine eloquently states above, the government IS the suspect (because the 9/11 Truth Movement says so), that despite the fact that the evidence demonstrably never originated WITH the government NOR was it in its control, 9/11 Truthers can only rationalize that since the government is the ONLY suspect, that somehow (always left unexplained by truthers) the government MUST have had "developed and controls the evidence."

Yet, rationally there is no more reason to "suspect" the government of 9/11 than there is to suspect Santa Claus. BlueRaja puts it quite clearly:

"It was never the government's responsibility to prove that we were attacked. It merely tried to find out what happened, and there are gaps in info."

But reason has never played a part in those, like 9/11 Truthers, who are emotionally susceptible to conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theories develop when the the proven cause (19 hijackers, Lee Harvey Oswald) seem to many people so weak and inconsequential to the size and impact of the event. It is a common psychological reaction documented by psychologists for decades.

It is common that many people believe that significant consequences MUST be the result of significant perpetrators, therefore, to them, how could it be possible that 19 Arab hijackers pulled off 9/11?

9/11 Truthers, somewhat understandably, have a real problem of acknowledging and letting go of something they have invested so much mental and emotional energy in for such a long time. It's an admission of being wrong, of being misled, a terrible blow to one's psyche, unless one is willing to face reality and accept wherever the evidence leads. And I am quite certain that actual evidence is what 9/11 Truthers fear most, and what they must avoid to hold the painful reality at bay that they have been misled and never bothered to question what they believed.

Are you 9/11 Truthers willing to acknowledge that?

Originally posted by comm12
You are right, all of us who are skeptical of the official explanation should once and for all submit to you proud crusaders of truth and reason who so honorably defend and promote the "official" story, because the official story needs yours and all of ours support.

I'm sorry for the sarcasm but I'm tired of this debate.

Just as we are tired of the canard and strawman, "Official Story."

reply to post by jthomas


look...the governments version is not going to change. any logical and reasoned questions, have either been ignored, or dismissed as being from "nut jobs". and the corporate media will never take it seriously. i don't know why people keep thinking they are going to get some kind of justice. excepting the fact that the common people have no real power to question their government, is a bitter pill to swallow here in america. but it has been going on for some time, and serious dissenters have been dealt with quite effectively, and will be in the future.

I have been a 911 truther for 5 years. Yes, it seems that there all kind of theories of what happened, etc. But to put it very simply, we have only one account of what happened- the official story given by our ( well not "our" ) government. And under further scrutiny this official story does not add up at all. And because of this the the most important thing to tell others is that we need to reopen a very independent investigation into 911. It's really that simple- no need to talk about what we think happened, etc, etc. This is how I have spread the truth seed.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
9/11 Truthers share one thing in common. Flawed scientific method with regards to what constitutes evidence to support a theory. They all share at least the belief that the official story couldn't be true. Some believe that it was an inside job.

You believe these pigs in office? Myself and the International Association of Firefighters does not. Nearly every Firefighter is a member of the IAFF. This link to youtube was originally taken from the iaff.org website. At 8:10 into the video the IAFF says: "The command center was evacuated and destroyed on 911" and is showing world trade 7 falling. The pig Giuliani lied to the press at 7:17 stating the firefighters disobeyed orders to evacuate. When it was really because of the faulty radios he got a damn kickback on that killed 121 more firefighters in the north tower. He then had the remains dumped in the landfill.

They lie all the time and are not giving us the truth.



[edit on 11-3-2008 by LoneGunMan]