Have Christians Been Duped?

reply to post by MatrixProphet


I'm christian, I'm a spiritual truth seeker as well...

you don't have to be an in the box closed minded dogma believing idiot to continue being a christian...

I hear the term 'spiritual' being used on a regular basis from either ex christians or just ones that don't attend church anymore, and it's rubbish,
yes you can pray and find spirituality outside a building, but guess what, the box closes both ways, you can find it in a building too.

My sect of christianity is Judau-Christian, I believe the Jews are the chosen people, true Christians through Jesus are the chosen people as well, and if your a Jewish Christian I guess you have double the chosen, but I don't believe every tiny piece of dogma in my church.. there are many opinions in every religion, and it's ones choice to discern using the spirit of truth to choose what is right and what doesn't fit even in the religion itself.

I would've left my church long ago if I didn't feel the spirit of truth, which I've felt on a regular basis, and it's impossible to dismiss as anything other than that, this Spirit of truth can help you discern even the most unknown subjects such as UFOs... an example...

I once heard a guy talk about a UFO experience, he spoke the entire thing in spanish I had NO idea what he was talking about, but the spirit of truth told me he was lying or simply saying something that wasn't true, it wasn't until a while after he was done that I asked what he was talking about.

If you trust no Spirit of truth you can't really trust anyone, so I do feel sorry for those that don't know how to use the Spirit on their behalf, it really can save your life.

reply to post by budro


Interesting that you say that. When I was saved, the first, most memorable thing that happened to me was a thirst to read the bible. I was not raised with the slightest care about the bible and didn't know, for instance, the basic stories contained in the bible, the 10 commandments, or who the Jews were from God's perspective. In fact, I was raised to despise the Jews and would have gotten along very nicely with my family of origin if I had never had any of this information presented to me at all. As it is, we're estranged.

How strange that a people despised uniformly throughout the world has produced this book, save a chapter in Daniel and the books Luke/Acts, and that it has been preserved in the manner it has. The Jews are hated and yet here is this book, both OT and NT, primarily written by the Jews and preserved throughout the world in various forms for thousands of years.

Does no one see the irony of this situation?

So, if the bible is unimportant, I find it fairly strange personally that I would have an overwhelming urge to read it. Furthermore, I found it to be the most beautiful thing I'd ever read. It doesn't read like the fictions or one-sided, self-promoting nonsense produced out of the minds of individual authors. It comes off as very real since its protagonists are often mere mortals and fail all over the place. We even get to see their repentance as in Ps 51 and suffering as in Ps 22. Does it contain descriptions of supernatural experiences? Sure thing, but that's exactly what I would expect from a people chosen by God relating their experiences with God.

So, chalk me up as a Jew loving, bible loving Jesus freak!

reply to post by Ichabod

I dont recall saying the bible was unimportant, maybe because of my comments on teachers being unnecessary? Regardless...

I as well had an urge to read the bible as often as possible right after I was saved and as a matter of fact it was once a project of mine to memorize the entire book. But it was my desire to know God that led me to read the bible, it is a resource to be used along with His guidance.

When man's doctrine is interjected it is nothing more than an opinion and often will be taught in a way to make the doctrine of choice seem to be the will of God. This in itself can be confusing to some one who knows what the word says. For me I pressed on and dug deeper only to find that just about every one had some version that they believed to be the bottom line and most of it had to believed by a false faith.

Jesus himself said that we will not need a teacher..What does that mean? If you seek he will lead you into all truth and believe me I dont say this haughtily but I think that is what pulled me from the Church. I was not happy with the fact that I knew of many Scriptures that were being out right ignored, lied about or explained away and then others would be used out of context to further the "doctrine" of choice.

What are those who dont have a bible to do? Is there no hope? No, actually their conscience serves as their guide.

What did the apostles and disciples in Jesus' time do? Did they have a bible or anything even close.

NO they lived it. It was written about them and their experiences with God. That is where I want to be. Not arguing about this doctrine or that. I want to live it and experience it. And that leads me to my next point.

As one who earnestly desired to live as the disciples and apostles, to see all of the promised fruit, to walk in the spirit at all times, I began to realize that God was not being honored, His commandments (not the 10) were being ignored and false teaching was all around. Mans will and doctrine was at the forefront and this was/is not just any one church.

I could go on and list the scripture and commands but to what avail? Jezebel is alive and well in most of the church today while the real Church is out in the wood work, waiting, seeking and finding.

reply to post by Razimus

I once heard a guy talk about a UFO experience, he spoke the entire thing in spanish I had NO idea what he was talking about, but the spirit of truth told me he was lying or simply saying something that wasn't true, it wasn't until a while after he was done that I asked what he was talking about.

If you trust no Spirit of truth you can't really trust anyone, so I do feel sorry for those that don't know how to use the Spirit on their behalf, it really can save your life.

Actually, I agree with much of what you are saying. You are talking about our senses. It is this that connects us to God and can save our lives!

You are also right in that there are many boxes! Boxes are everywhere!

If you are getting your needs met within your religion then I am probably not for you. But many are like me who came from religion and were finding that there were a lot of questions that were not being answered.

I am putting myself out there to share what I have been told from the highest authorities. Not everyone needs it, nor wants it. But it is risk you and I and everyone else takes to step forward to speak OUR truth.

Originally posted by budro

You must be the expert eh? Would you also say that one should not question authority or has God given you the wherewith all to rightly judge some one by a comment on a blog? What did I miss, do you know this person to be an ignorant fool or is it your enlightenment that allows you such wisdom?

You sir, sound exactly like the kind of "elder" or "Deacon" that causes people like me to question what is really going on in the church and wonder where is the love that God so openly speaks of in the bible.

For that I give you mad props. Ive been set free by my disgust for self righteous, legalistic religious people who were more concerned about their image than the opportunity right in front of them. That is unless the opportunity could make them look good.

Bring on you "wisdom of the spirit of God". Oh and before you say it, it is not God's wisdom I am challenging it is yours.

[edit on 15-1-2009 by budro]

Your not judging or assuming too much are you...LOL.

Can you tell me what your training and tools consist of for being qualified to give an educated opinion on the Bible and the historicity of Christ, the Christian Church, etc.?

Did I call the OP an ignorant fool, or are those your words?
Though I'm not going to deny that is the case.

You have begun your comments without knowing anything about my previous discourse with the OP. You assume, that I am simply responding to one post, when In fact I know this person has a deeply flawed view of Christianity and the Bible.

Who's judging who improperly? Have I talked to you before?

How is a person self righteous when they rely on the righteousness of Christ rather than their own.

I don't go to Church. But it sure sounds like you did, and it sounds like you have a lot of hate and bitterness in you.

[edit on 16-1-2009 by John Matrix]

The Bible is the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. It is exactly what it should be. Adam ate the fruit so that he would come to know Good AND Evil; thus become Like God.

Surely it cannot be clearer than that. Since it says this about itself in the first Chapter of the book, I don't know how anyone could consider themselves duped.

I suppose the real choice is between Life and Good and Evil. I chose Life.

Originally posted by redwolf.of.odin
reply to post by John Matrix

 

Exactly what right have you to say that I don’t know what I’m talking about? I was raise Christian my father was a preacher I have read the bible cover to cover many times over and have a better understanding of it than anyone I know. You condemn those that post here like all other organized religions have done for years. What happened to cast the moat out of your own eye before you cast the beam out of your bothers? Or judge not that you be not judged. You presume to think that you’re an expert on all thing and we are all ignorant fools this is the same view that sparked the crusades. And plunged us into the dark ages. A fool like you looked at the Muslim faith and said they are evil because they are not our faith. But the Muslim faith is as holy as the Christians or the Jews. All that slaughter and bloodshed because of ignorant fools like you

Did I say to you that you don't know what you are talking about?
If I did, you must have said something very stupid.
You should have provided me with a direct quote of what I said to cause you to come off attacking me.

It sounds very obvious that your infated self image is hurt, and now you have to blow off some steam to build yourself back up.

Can you give me some proof to back up your rather mean spirited assessment of me? I don't recall having ever posted a comment to you.

I think it's reasonable that if a person is going to give an opinion about Christianity or the Bible, they should at least have some knowledge about what they are talking about so that they don't make fools of themselves.

Would you go to an auto mechanic for a kidney transplant?

NOW, I never said I was an expert, even though I have spent 40 yrs studying the bible, commentaries by many Scholars, Lexicons, Concordances, Archaeological evidence, Geological evidence, other ancient texts such as the Lost Books of Eden, Enoch, gnostic gospels, Apocrypha, etc.

Also, FYI, I do have a Degree(glory to God, not me) in this area...which I don't think I said on ATS until now. But putting all that aside, I have a free spirit and free will, and In the past I use my brain to do research in libraries, now I do it on the Internet. So, I don't just blindly follow some blind fool who has an uninformed opinion based on what they "FEEL" instead of based on intelligent research and logic.

I'm still learning everyday.
I wait to hear more good things from you.

Originally posted by John Matrix

Your not judging or assuming too much are you...LOL.

Can you tell me what your training and tools consist of for being qualified to give an educated opinion on the Bible and the historicity of Christ, the Christian Church, etc.?

Did I call the OP an ignorant fool, or are those your words?

Though I'm not going to deny that is the case.

You have begun your comments without knowing anything about my previous discourse with the OP. You assume, that I am simply responding to one post, when In fact I know this person has a deeply flawed view of Christianity and the Bible.

Who's judging who improperly? Have I talked to you before?

How is a person self righteous when they rely on the righteousness of Christ rather than their own.

I don't go to Church. But it sure sounds like you did, and it sounds like you have a lot of hate and bitterness in you.

[edit on 16-1-2009 by John Matrix]

I may be wrong but I called it like I saw it, much like you did, and any indignation on my part is a result of seeing people torn apart by the Church, by supposed Christians and by legalistic, self righteous ignorant fools.

Lets just say I have no tools or training, what then, can we not converse or is it to help you better prepare? I thought we were told not to worry about what we would say as the words would be given?

In my circles having a big ol log in your eye while trying to remove the splinter from another's is considered self righteous. Kind a like telling some one to shut up and sit down or something like this

"What? Why do you comment like this. You are not an expert. Consult the expert Scholars before you spout such assumptions. You have no clue what is involved in the process of revision or New translations. Your statement above is proof. You should stick with the occupation you have and stop leading people down the path of confusion and Hell."


By the way it is apparent to me and now it will be to you we dont agree on what should be the foundation for a discussion in this context. That is if you rely on the scholars. For every one you quote there are 4 more with a different interpretation and to me that leaves to many doors open.

Good day

John, none the less and by all means, fire away!

I almost forgot to say not a one liner.
I promise not to get my concordance out.
[edit on 16-1-2009 by budro]

[edit on 16-1-2009 by budro]

Originally posted by redwolf.of.odin
reply to post by John Matrix

 

Exactly what right have you to say that I don’t know what I’m talking about? I was raise Christian my father was a preacher I have read the bible cover to cover many times over and have a better understanding of it than anyone I know. You condemn those that post here like all other organized religions have done for years. What happened to cast the moat out of your own eye before you cast the beam out of your bothers? Or judge not that you be not judged. You presume to think that you’re an expert on all thing and we are all ignorant fools this is the same view that sparked the crusades. And plunged us into the dark ages. A fool like you looked at the Muslim faith and said they are evil because they are not our faith. But the Muslim faith is as holy as the Christians or the Jews. All that slaughter and bloodshed because of ignorant fools like you

OK, I went back and found my comment to you and I want you to see it and tell me exactly what I said to you to deserve your comments above, and being listed as your "Foe". You tell me who is judging who here:

First , the statement of yours that I was responding to:

First of all I do not agree with all the revisions and rewriting of the bible witch changes the true meaning of what is said.

My response to your statement was this:

Actually, no revisions have ever altered the Gospel message of Salvation.
I think you are expecting too much from fallible people who translate, Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Aramaic into English. Also, as new texts are discovered, ancient stone tablets, ancient cities, ancient artifacts, etc., modern translators gain a better understanding of the original language.
It wasn't until a few decades ago that Scholars discovered that the NT was written in Koine Greek(common) rather than the Higher Greek. This led to some new insights and a greater understanding of Scripture, but did not take anything from it, it just added to it, and to our understanding.
I think it's better to consult experts to avoid confusion.

I don't see any personal attack on you there. No judging, no claims of me being an expert, no condemning anyone, no finger pointing, no calling you an ignorant fool.

Go ahead and read your words. Who has the log in their eye which they cannot see? Who called who names? Look! Can you see?

Originally posted by budro

Originally posted by John Matrix

Your not judging or assuming too much are you...LOL.

Can you tell me what your training and tools consist of for being qualified to give an educated opinion on the Bible and the historicity of Christ, the Christian Church, etc.?

Did I call the OP an ignorant fool, or are those your words?

Though I'm not going to deny that is the case.

You have begun your comments without knowing anything about my previous discourse with the OP. You assume, that I am simply responding to one post, when In fact I know this person has a deeply flawed view of Christianity and the Bible.

Who's judging who improperly? Have I talked to you before?

How is a person self righteous when they rely on the righteousness of Christ rather than their own.

I don't go to Church. But it sure sounds like you did, and it sounds like you have a lot of hate and bitterness in you.

[edit on 16-1-2009 by John Matrix]

I may be wrong but I called it like I saw it, much like you did, and any indignation on my part is a result of seeing people torn apart by the Church, by supposed Christians and by legalistic, self righteous ignorant fools.

Lets just say I have no tools or training, what then, can we not converse or is it to help you better prepare? I thought we were told not to worry about what we would say as the words would be given?

In my circles having a big ol log in your eye while trying to remove the splinter from another's is considered self righteous. Kind a like telling some one to shut up and sit down or something like this

"What? Why do you comment like this. You are not an expert. Consult the expert Scholars before you spout such assumptions. You have no clue what is involved in the process of revision or New translations. Your statement above is proof. You should stick with the occupation you have and stop leading people down the path of confusion and Hell."


By the way it is apparent to me and now it will be to you we dont agree on what should be the foundation for a discussion in this context. That is if you rely on the scholars. For every one you quote there are 4 more with a different interpretation and to me that leaves to many doors open.

Good day

Well, I think you were highly unfair, assuming and presumptuous. But if you want to start again, the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Don't expect perfection from me and you won't be nearly as disappointed as you could have been.

reply to post by budro


Obviously the concern I had was for the possibility of leading people astray. As a teacher, I take that role very seriously and with a lot of caution and apprehension.

Something else, Mainstream Christian Scholars may not agree on everything, but they do agree on a lot more than they disagree on.
But I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bath water.

I enjoy reading other people's research results, hearing their experiences, whether they do it for personal interest and spiritual development, or whether they do it to earn a doctorate.

Originally posted by budro
John, none the less and by all means, fire away!

I almost forgot to say not a one liner.
I promise not to get my concordance out.

I'm all ears, you first.

Awesome first couple of posts on this page ...
Razmus ..Ichabod .....and budro (I liked yours the best ) .wow ..stars ...

Wow ...I agree with all three of those posts (well minus maybe just a few things) ....very similar to what I have been through ...very similar to how I feel about it all too ..


Budro you said ...
[Not arguing about this doctrine or that.]
The reason why that is necessary is because alot of believers do get confused ..easily on what scripture is saying (as you can see everyone has something they disagree on in at least a few places in their beliefs .and so.we all learn by arguing it because it makes us study it even deeper just to show someone they are wrong (lol even if they are not ) we learn so much more as we are studying to argue about it ..lol ...it at least gets some people back to reading the bible so they can grow in spirit (thats what the bible helps me to do ) ...........so this is a good thing ...
All learn through the process of argueing doctrine .(but we are supposed to be reasoning together not arguing )

I hope you get the point of why it is a good thing to discuss doctrine (beliefs)..and what scripture says ......dont you ? It is for reproof ...and for instruction in rightousness...I think learning the truth (not just your version of it or one you think is close but may not be the whole enchilada and you can only find out what that is by reading it .. ) it is important to know the scriptures ...and of course be able to discern what it means or does not mean ..some cannot even discern because they either do not have the spirit in them or they do not listen to it (the word says you can quench the spirit of God within you ) ....if your quenching the spirit then you will not be hearing what it sayeth to your spirit .....we quench it when we sin willfully and dont want to hear the conviction from our heart (we dont want our concience bothering us) ..so we cut it off ..build a wall ..so we dont hear the spirit ....
2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Sorry now I am just rambling ....



[edit on 16-1-2009 by Simplynoone]

reply to post by huckfinn

The Bible is the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. It is exactly what it should be. Adam ate the fruit so that he would come to know Good AND Evil; thus become Like God.

Surely it cannot be clearer than that. Since it says this about itself in the first Chapter of the book, I don't know how anyone could consider themselves duped.

So since mankind has been in sin for all these millenniums can we say then that God must be dysfunctional also? Since Adam as you said; became like God?

I think there is a whole lot of story behind this story!

The Gods are not stupid, so they must have known that this would be a great temptation for them. So it begs the question: were they set up to fail, and if so, why?

Originally posted by John Matrix

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by redwolf.of.odin

 

I think Christian have been duped in many ways. First of all I do not agree with all the revisions and rewriting of the bible witch changes the true meaning of what is said.

Yes, the Bible has been written and revised many times and all based on copies. That in itself is interesting. So it brings up the question: what DOES God want us to believe?

What? Why do you comment like this. You are not an expert. Consult the expert Scholars before you spout such assumptions. You have no clue what is involved in the process of revision or New translations. Your statement above is proof. You should stick with the occupation you have and stop leading people down the path of confusion and Hell.

are you telling me you don't remember your posts or that you can't go back 2 pages and see what you posted to me

reply to post by John Matrix

It is easy to see that the two of you are working together to sow confusion with your willy nilly philosophy of Lies that you tout as Truth. You are both leading people straight to Hell and you bring a curse to yourselves in doing this. You are FALSE teachers, High minded and puffed up, on here looking to feed your egos with pleasantries offered to you by people just as ignorant as you are of the teachings of God. [edit on 15-1-2009 by John Matrix]

this allso rather angered me

Mod Edit: BB Code.

[edit on 17/1/2009 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by redwolf.of.odin
this allso rather angered me

That was for the OP and for jastamomma.
The only reason it angered you is because your on the OP's side of the debate.
It was not directed at you and you know nothing about the insults they directed at me and others on other threads.
So what has that got to do with you and me?

BTW, Your quote in white above has screwed up the HTML on this page. I suggest you edit it out.

[edit on 16-1-2009 by John Matrix]

Originally posted by redwolf.of.odin

Originally posted by John Matrix

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by redwolf.of.odin

 

I think Christian have been duped in many ways. First of all I do not agree with all the revisions and rewriting of the bible witch changes the true meaning of what is said.

Yes, the Bible has been written and revised many times and all based on copies. That in itself is interesting. So it brings up the question: what DOES God want us to believe?

What? Why do you comment like this. You are not an expert. Consult the expert Scholars before you spout such assumptions. You have no clue what is involved in the process of revision or New translations. Your statement above is proof. You should stick with the occupation you have and stop leading people down the path of confusion and Hell.

are you telling me you don't remember your posts or that you can't go back 2 pages and see what you posted to me

That offends you and justifies this response from you?:
Exactly what right have you to say that I don’t know what I’m talking about? I was raise Christian my father was a preacher I have read the bible cover to cover many times over and have a better understanding of it than anyone I know. You condemn those that post here like all other organized religions have done for years. What happened to cast the moat out of your own eye before you cast the beam out of your bothers? Or judge not that you be not judged. You presume to think that you’re an expert on all thing and we are all ignorant fools this is the same view that sparked the crusades. And plunged us into the dark ages. A fool like you looked at the Muslim faith and said they are evil because they are not our faith. But the Muslim faith is as holy as the Christians or the Jews. All that slaughter and bloodshed because of ignorant fools like you

Look at your own words from the start of this.

And some of this was meant to respond to Max Prophit.
I think your ego is a bit too sensitive. Nothing I said justifies your mean mouthed response to me. NOTHING!

[edit on 16-1-2009 by John Matrix]

satan and God are not on the same team. God kicked him out of heaven a long with bad angels which are demons it talks about this in revelations. we are leaving in a time that they tell you to embrace your sins God gave us free will it is your choice at least you know about him if you dont believe ask him to show you. God blessed united states all
these years because we were a christian nation but we have turned our backs so I don't
know what the future holds for us.