What would prove to you that 9/11 was not a conspiracy?

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Well heat destroys DNA so if there was a fire then the DNA would have been destroyed.

While this is true, ULTIMA avoids the fact that not all of the DNA was heat degraded, and could be done with previously used techniques.

ULTIMA wants to use the fact that heoric efforts were used to id those people as evidence of..... something fishy.

The only thing I see that is fishy is his statement that fire destroyed the plane. The impacts destroyed the plane.

These people that post these kind of things ( IMO) are most likely working for the so called goverment and with all the poof that appears to be showing that it was infact an inside job, they are trying to come up with any extra bit of info that can be used to put even more spin on their "story" . I belive they are quite scared at this point and are grasping at anything and anywhere to try and down play it..

Originally posted by KMFNWO
Oh, and the DNA thing doesn't wash with flight 93. Nothing out of the ordinary there, no buildings or such, just a plane hitting the ground. i want verifiable DNA proof of the occupants on that plane according to its mainifest. Because so far all I have is a coroner reporting that he could not obtain so much as a drop of blood.

KMFNWO... all the victims of flight 93 were in fact identified by DNA evidence, bone fragments, finger prints, and/or dental records. Here is some information on the collection and identification of DNA evidence and other remains for flight 93:

There was a 100-member federal Disaster Mortuary Operations Response Team, aided in handling remains including:


Paul Sledzik, Curator Armed Forces Institute of Pathology National Museum of Health and Medicine
Leader of flight 93 Disaster Mortuary (Team DMORT) Emil: [email protected]

Disaster Mortuary Team Main office: 1-800-USA-NDMS, ext. 205
DMORT Region 3 office (includes Pennsylvania) 410-676-4600


Dr. Dennis C. Dirkmaat, Chief Scientific Advisor to Somerset County Coroner's office in the flight 93 investigation; Director, Applied Forensic Sciences Department, Mercyhurst College, 501 E. 38th St. Erie, PA 16546 Email: [email protected]


September 22:
www.post-gazette.com...


September 24th:
www.post-gazette.com...

October 10th:
www.post-gazette.com...

December 22:
www.post-gazette.com...

[edit on 9-3-2008 by CaptainObvious]

I will state the following.


With my intense knowledge of Farenheit 9/11, I think it should all inspire us to understand why we blame a man we funded on an attack on our own state.

I will also state the following fact,


Why did building 7 fall?

Controlled demolitions.

Originally posted by Whodunnit

Originally posted by LazyGuy

Here's a picture of the molten metal at that WTC site. In order to change my mind about 9-11 the first thing would be a reasonable explanation of how molten metal was found weeks later at the site. If they can explain it then I'd take a step towards believing the official story.

There are reports of temps around 2800F when they pulled out pieces like in your photo. If I remember correctly, it was done using an infrared gun type thingy.

There were also satelite images of the piles being 1200-1300C.

So there's definitely enough heat the make steel red like that, which takes around......... 900C I think.

There was lots of debris to burn under the piles. More than enough fuel to do the job.

OK, I'm with you on the hand held temps and the satelite imagary recording high temperatures. Only thing is how were those temperatures achieved? Simple fires won't get that hot.

The simple facts of temperatures:

1535ºC (2795ºF) - melting point of iron
~1510ºC (2750ºF) - melting point of typical structural steel
~825ºC (1517ºF) - maximum temperature of hydrocarbon fires burning in the atmosphere without pressurization or pre-heating (premixed fuel and air - blue flame)
Diffuse flames burn far cooler.
Oxygen-starved diffuse flames are cooler yet.

The fires in the towers were diffuse -- well below 800ºC.

Source

One more thing. It takes a lot of energy to melt something. It takes much more energy to melt something than it does to raise it's temperature by 1 degree. It's one of the laws of thermodynamics. If we knew how much steel was melted then we could figure out how much energy it would take.

When you heat a material, you are adding kinetic energy to its molecules and usually raising its temperature. The only exception is when the material reaches its melting or boiling points. At those two temperatures, the heat energy goes into changing the state of the material. After the state has changed, the temperature will rise again with added heat.

Source

For more info about the molten steel watch this video.
YouTubeVideo

[edit on 9-3-2008 by LazyGuy]

Originally posted by LazyGuy
OK, I'm with you on the hand held temps and the satelite imagary recording high temperatures. Only thing is how were those temperatures achieved? Simple fires won't get that hot.

This is one of the things I hate. I don't believe all of the official reports either, but office fires DO get hotter than what you've been told. And while the 825C figure you gave IS accurate, this applies to fires in the 'open', and not in a confined area like an office building, or confined spaces like under the rubble pile.

Here's a good link to one of the premier structural fire engineer companies around. After I read this, I came to the conclusion that fire temps needed to see red hot steel is possible, under the conditions of the rubble pile.

www.mace.manchester.ac.uk...

Also, your link addresses oxygen starved fires. And while this is also true to some extent, they also talk about, and have done tests on, fires that had limited ventilation, like under the piles. Their tests indicate that fires with limited ventilation actually have INCREASED temps.

Apparently, what happens is that a well ventilated fire burns faster - we can agree there - but the heat is also 'ventilated' away. The heat is 'held in' using layman's terms by an office ceiling or in this case, the rubble above the burning zone. There would obviously be a minimum limit you go with this, where the fires obviously would go out. But it looks, from examining this website (lots of good pages there, btw) that it doesn't take much ventilation at all to keep the fires going sufficently to produce these temps.

Hope this helps.

Well it wasn't a conspiracy it was just plain simple murder! There is nothing else to it. I suppose 9/11 was something that triggered me into majorly unravelling everything i see and touch and hear! I wish people would not waste time with posts like these when after you watch 9/11 mysteries and many other vidoes or read many other documents you can see very clearly it was a murder. There is a murderer in Amercia at the moment. He is your president. DO something about it! Christ, Clinton was removed for his private life and Bush isnt removed for his murders? This is a joke. I would be getting more research done in areas of secret societies or something rather than making topics like this. However I posted in it so there must be some ironicness there. I hope to all those non-911 believers taht you now see it was not Alquieda. It was your own government!

reply to post by widget


Actually, Clinton went through impeachment proceedings, but was never removed from office, nor did he step down. I see your point however, and agree with it.

reply to post by jackinthebox


No, I agree that the government needs to step up on the issue. I just can't say either way. I lean to no side.

In my opinion, the governments lack of cooperation is one of the strongest arguments against the official version. It's completely unethical.

reply to post by Whodunnit


Consider this. The bombing of Hamburg Germany in 1943 has been called the "Hiroshima of Germany." The bombing became so intense that it spawned firestorms. Tornados of fire that people above ground were sucked into by 150mph winds, while people in bomb shelters were cooked alive. The fire was so intense that asphalt burned. With the most intense bombing that the allies could muster, over 9,000 TONS of bombs including 4,000-pound blockbusters, the temperatures only reached about 800 degrees Centigrade, or 1500 degress Farenheit.

EDIT to correct measure of bombs dropped.


[edit on 3/9/0808 by jackinthebox]

reply to post by Sublime620


I think you and I are pretty much on the same page.

The one thing that I keep going back to is the one excuse that keeps getting thrown around for the deterioration of our rights. And that is "well, if you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to worry about." Well, if they want to use that excuse then it is a two-way street.

Originally posted by jackinthebox

Consider this. The bombing of Hamburg Germany in 1943 has been called the "Hiroshima of Germany." The bombing became so intense that it spawned firestorms. Tornados of fire that people above ground were sucked into by 150mph winds, while people in bomb shelters were cooked alive. The fire was so intense that asphalt burned. With the most intense bombing that the allies could muster, over 9,000 bombs including 4,000-pound blockbusters, the temperatures only reached about 800 degrees Centigrade, or 1500 degress Farenheit.

Yes, I'm aware of this fact. But it just reaffirms that a well ventilated fire 'ventilates' its heat up and away.

Back in my younger, skinnier days, I used to do quite a bit of several nights worth backpacking. To conserve on how much fuel you needed to pack, and hence weight, you ALWAYS cooked using a covered pot. This is because the lid 'traps' the heat in, cooking your food more rapidly. Hence less fuel is needed to be packed along.

This is similar to what happens in buildings. The ceiling/roof 'traps' in the heat, making them hotter. Firefighters will even chop through ceilings and roofs of houses to ventilate them, to allow the heat to escape to avoid flashovers ( and to allow the smoke to escape). Sounds counterintuitive to the layman since it seems increased ventilation would make the fires more intense, but one would presume that the firefighters know what they're doing.

The same applies to the debris piles, I believe.

I can recall like yesterday czech ops saying Iraq was involved. And US declaring that intell false. But where are we today.

reply to post by Whodunnit

To conserve on how much fuel you needed to pack, and hence weight, you ALWAYS cooked using a covered pot. This is because the lid 'traps' the heat in, cooking your food more rapidly. Hence less fuel is needed to be packed along.

Are you claiming that your pot of beans actually gets hotter than the blue flame coming out of your burner?

Heat can be trapped, I will agree with that, but that does not mean that the temperature will increase beyond the temperature of the heat source.

EDIT to add: You also have to consider that in the city of Hamburg, there were plenty of buildings still standing even after the firestorm, that could have "trapped" the heat, yet the temperatures still never exceeded 1500 degrees F. Furthermore, there were areas that were still smoldering days later, those "trapped" areas you speak of, that were still too hot to approach but still did not surpass the aforementioned measurement.





[edit on 3/9/0808 by jackinthebox]

[edit on 3/9/0808 by jackinthebox]

Originally posted by widget
There is a murderer in Amercia at the moment. He is your president. DO something about it! Christ, Clinton was removed for his private life and Bush isnt removed for his murders? This is a joke. I would be getting more research done in areas of secret societies or something rather than making topics like this. However I posted in it so there must be some ironicness there. I hope to all those non-911 believers taht you now see it was not Alquieda. It was your own government!

You know, something like 9/11 would take at least a couple of years of planning. So I guess Clinton is a murderer too eh?


Threads like this only prove people are NOT searching for the truth. They've already made up their mind the government was fully responsible and ignore any evidence even slightly hinting otherwise. They only go about searching for evidence to fit their predisposed positions. Funny stuff.
Then they have the gall to call for third party investigations.
And if that third party investigation concludes it was indeed terrorist, will you accept it? Of course not. It doesn't fit YOUR truth.

Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by Whodunnit

 

Consider this. The bombing of Hamburg Germany in 1943 has been called the "Hiroshima of Germany." The bombing became so intense that it spawned firestorms. Tornados of fire that people above ground were sucked into by 150mph winds, while people in bomb shelters were cooked alive. The fire was so intense that asphalt burned. With the most intense bombing that the allies could muster, over 9,000 TONS of bombs including 4,000-pound blockbusters, the temperatures only reached about 800 degrees Centigrade, or 1500 degress Farenheit.

Jack,
This fire bombing and firestorm was intentional. The allies intended to do great harm to the German people. It was no accident incendiaries were dropped purposely to create a firestorm. The same with Tokyo.
EDIT to correct measure of bombs dropped.


[edit on 3/9/0808 by jackinthebox]

reply to post by ThatsJustWeird

You know, something like 9/11 would take at least a couple of years of planning. So I guess Clinton is a murderer too eh?

What? Are you trying to show an example of political baiting, or just pure ingnorance?

What does the planning of 9/11 have to do with Clinton?

They've already made up their mind the government was fully responsible and ignore any evidence even slightly hinting otherwise.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have not made up my mind that the government is responsible for anything. Factions and persons operating in domestic politics and economics is another matter however. When people say "our government" they are assuming that you would have a basic understanding that the government is not a monolithic entity.

And what evidence do you have to present that you claim is being ignored?

And if that third party investigation concludes it was indeed terrorist, will you accept it? Of course not. It doesn't fit YOUR truth.

I don't see how a new investigation could possibly conclude that a lone terrorist cell, or even a closed network, carried out 9/11 considering the substantial evidence to the contrary that has already been brought forth.

Care to challenge any of that evidence?

reply to post by Leo Strauss

This fire bombing and firestorm was intentional. The allies intended to do great harm to the German people. It was no accident incendiaries were dropped purposely to create a firestorm. The same with Tokyo.

...And Dresden. I agree.

Originally posted by Whodunnit
There are reports of temps around 2800F when they pulled out pieces like in your photo. If I remember correctly, it was done using an infrared gun type thingy.

But where did the fires come from to keep the steel molten for up to 6 weeks?

The fires in the towers were not hot enough to melt steel and they were burning out before the towers collapsed.

Also the EPA asked NASA to fly over the debris to get reading for toxins or radiation. They recorded high temps in the debris, higher then the fires in the tower before collapse.



[edit on 10-3-2008 by ULTIMA1]

I'd like to see that Silverstein fellow answer questions under oath. There's no way explosives could've been planted on the towers without his knowledge (unless he's the stupidest billionaire on the planet). He more than anyone is likely to know the truth about what happened that day.
That aside, there's really nothing that could convince me of anything other than that 911 was an inside job. We've been sold out. The only real question is: What're we gonna do about it?