This is not a chemtrail! Atmospheric Phenomenen explained

reply to post by psychedeliack


I know it's way back at the start of the comments, but your picture of chemtrails on Google Earth are very compelling.
Even if you decide those are just contrails, they still leave you wondering what on earth are the air force doing making contrail patterns like that?

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
No, the common sense is that releasing anything that high up would not affect you one bit.
You can could stand on Mount Everest and not be affected

That's the common sense part. And the fact that winds that high are MUCH higher than here at the surface so spraying that high would end up hundreds of miles away. And the fact that spraying that high, if it could reach the ground, which it can not, would not fall in any regular or predictable pattern so they would be spraying themselves.

Well, I'm no expert, but I'd like to challenge this.
When you are getting rained on, the cloud raining on you is generally above your head. I know, rain clouds don't float around at 30,000 feet, but when something is falling, down is the general direction.
So, to avoid your spray from getting conveyed 300KM away, wouldn't you just need to know when the wind at that elevation is not blowing?
And I don't know, maybe the civilian sector can't forecast that, but what about the military. Weren’t there top secret weather balloons in use during the 60's? I'm not suggesting black magic here, I'm just suggesting that one group knows something another group hasn't invested the resources to find out.
Like I said I'm no expert, I'm just trying to provide an argument here to dig around a bit. ThatsJustWeird, you seem pretty sure and you made a good point about the origin of the theory, but your argument just isn't air tight (at least not close enough). It's probably better than any argument I could pit against it, but to dismiss this chemtrail idea at this stage... well, it just seems to me that there is a potential here for colossal disaster.

The thread is somewhat misleading. Since he is just explaining things that could be mistaken for chem trails, the title should be more like, "Some clouds that may be mistaken for chemtrails." or something to that effect.

Although this explains certain phenomenon, it doesn't even get near the fact that on cloudless days planes are seen flying over with huge trails behind them that linger and last for a very long time. The clouds don't even play a factor in this when they aren't even there. Good thread, but misleading enough to cause flamewars.

Originally posted by ragnarak

Although this explains certain phenomenon, it doesn't even get near the fact that on cloudless days planes are seen flying over with huge trails behind them that linger and last for a very long time.

Have you read nothing They are called contrails - and are a recognised form of manmade cirrus cloud that have been studied for decades Why on earth do you think otherwise?

I know you want it to be a horse, but surely the long trunk, rough grey skin and big flappy years give you at least a bit of a clue?

Originally posted by Essan

Originally posted by ragnarak

Although this explains certain phenomenon, it doesn't even get near the fact that on cloudless days planes are seen flying over with huge trails behind them that linger and last for a very long time.

Have you read nothing

They are called contrails - and are a recognised form of manmade cirrus cloud that have been studied for decades

Why on earth do you think otherwise?

I know you want it to be a horse, but surely the long trunk, rough grey skin and big flappy years give you at least a bit of a clue?

Since when was I talking about contrails? Contrails != Chemtrails.

Clearly you haven't read anything on chemical trails (probably never bothered). Yes there are contrails, and yes there are the phenomenon discussed here. All those != Chemtrails. What don't you understand? If you are saying that Chemtrails all fall into those categories. That is just being extremely naive.

I know you want to believe everything that comes from your major news stations and information outlets is correct; and that the governments of the world can do no wrong, but perhaps you are the one who should get the biggest clue of all?

reply to post by ragnarak


What I am saying is that persistent contrails - which many people frequently misidentify and claim to be chemtrails - are indeed just normal persistent contrails.

They are of concern because of their effect on weather and climate, but that is all.

If chemtrails are really being sprayed (other than cloud seeding, known low level spraying operations to kill insect infestations, deployment of anti radar chaff during military exercises, etc etc ), there is as yet no photographic evidence of such operation in progress. And, indeed, there seems no reason to suppose such spraying would be visible from the ground 6 miles below anyway.

btw I don't believe anything the media or Govt tell me - but then, both are largely silent on this issue. I do however believe what professional meteorologists and climate scientists have been telling me for the past 40 years

[edit on 10-3-2008 by Essan]

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird

Originally posted by Shroomery
Not effect us one bit? Wow, and the evidence for this is..?

Are you having difficult reading?
The fact that these are spayed 25+ thousand feet up.

So you're guessing they won't reach the ground, that's not evidence, it's again wishfull thinking based on denying gravity or rain, possibly both.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
Read what I said. I said contrails DO affect the weather. The weather affects us. Any chemicals spread that far up no matter what the composition would not be able to reach the any level that is inhabited by human beings. If you have ONE shred of evidence even slightly suggesting otherwise, then PLEASE PLEASE by all means present it!

You need evidence that metal particles fall to the ground? Why?
Shouldn't you be providing the rest of us evidence that under certain circumstances, stuff does not fall to the ground?

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
So, doing it in broad daylight is "in secrecy" now?
Wow, you learn something new every day

Yeah I bet you do if you act as ignorant as you do right now.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
Tons of what stuff?
Do you have ONE shred of evidence it is anything other than exhaust and water vapor? Again, if you do please present it.

I did present it, multiple people stating radar images being affected, and from analysis they show these particles, he also states that they are using tons of this.

That is evidence, maybe you don't like what you hear, but right now you're denying it. Like I said, if you really WERE interested, you wouldn't be here trying to deny evidence you'd be looking for it yourself.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
Get real man. I have seen ALL the videos, I have read all that stuff.
The reason why I know chemtrails is a bunch of nonsense is because I DO know what really happens. I know how our atmosphere works. I've also read about the origins of these theories. A subject you are constantly ignoring.

So maybe you can tell us how long a normal contrail stays there, you can't seem to answer that one can you? More than one hour you say? Is that as precise as you're gonna get?

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
That is the biggest load of BS ever.
I have been asking you to present this evidence but either you can't or won't. I would LOVE to see this evidence.

I have, what you did was ignore it, or, like you just did now, just tell us "ooh I've seen it all, I've studied the atmosphere!". But yet you fail to answer common questions or refute any of the evidence.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
I have been looking. All I've seen so far are people claiming contrails are chemtrails but not backing up their claims. I'm asking you because you say you have some or that there is some out there. If I can't find it on my own then of course I'm going to ask someone.

Have you contacted those people? Asked them where the particles came from? Where the radar images came from?

And why didn't you? And why are you instead still here claiming there is no evidence? You could be on the phone with them right now, yet, you choose to sit here and ignore what is presented to you.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
Link? Article? Anything?

That's funny.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
I study the weather and weather phenomenon for a living. You're telling me phenom that I study is something else simply because you saw some video on the internet telling you it's something else? Now tell me how much sense does that make to you. NONE whatsoever.

That's a serious assumption there.
But please tell me why I should trust your expertise when you can't even tell me how long contrails could persist.

You know you can't answer it, because a) you don't want to be proven wrong and b) you're afraid someone turns up and shows you evidence of chemtrail that persists twice as long as you claim.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
I could care less what the TV says or what the public accepts. Also, just because the public accepts it doesn't make it wrong. I'm not sure why you think that.....

Yeah because that's what I said.
Learn how to read for crying out loud.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
Well so far the only thing that has been presented is contrails. So if you have any evidence of these chemtrails, please present it.

And back to the fingers in ears technique.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
How about you try reading what I said for once.
The man in the video claimed the clouds descended and he was able to collect samples. My response was to that. He was able to take pictures of the clouds when they were 30,000 feet but apparently he couldn't take pictures of them while it descended. Nonsense.

And you study atmospheric phenomena? Sure. And I fly a sled with deers.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
And yet more BS from you. How surprising. You said water condensates after it evaporates. That is not the case. It only does so when conditions are right.

Hey, explaining something obvious twice, doesn't make it any less ridiculous. On the contrary.
You keep struggling with semantics here, but condensation still happens after evaporation. Sorry if I challenged you by not mentioning the exact steps, I assumed that was a given, especially for someone who studies the atmosphere.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
In a lot of cases sure it is. As in, it's there one minute and not there the next. Nothing on this earth lasts forever.

No, not in any case, by definition it changes state. It doesn't dissapear.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird

"Hours" as in more than one hour.
Who said anything about 20 min.?

People who study the atmosphere and contrails say that.
You on the other hand seem to have no clue other than "more than one hour". What does that even mean? And how does that explain trails that linger for an entire day?

Originally posted by Shroomery

So maybe you can tell us how long a normal contrail stays there, you can't seem to answer that one can you? More than one hour you say? Is that as precise as you're gonna get?

~ ~ ~

You know you can't answer it, because a) you don't want to be proven wrong and b) you're afraid someone turns up and shows you evidence of chemtrail that persists twice as long as you claim.

The answer is: contrail persistence depends on atmospheric conditions which can vary from hour to hour and especially according to altitude - such that at 29,000ft conditions may be very different to those encountered at 32,000ft.

Contrails may disperse within second, minutes, tens of minutes, or linger for hours. They may also spread to cover the sky, often mingling with naturally formed sheets of cirrostratus. This most commonly occurs ahead of an weather front and and is a well known means of predicting approaching rain.

A basic summary of different types of contrail can be found here

The impact of such man made clouds is something which is now heavily studied, for example here




[edit on 10-3-2008 by Essan]

Originally posted by Shroomery
So you're guessing they won't reach the ground, that's not evidence, it's again wishfull thinking based on denying gravity or rain, possibly both.

I'm not guessing. I'm stating facts.
Gravity and rain are irrelevant in this case. Again, basic understanding of our atmosphere and weather is helpful here. Since you don't have that basic understanding, I'm not sure how I can make this any clearer.....

You need evidence that metal particles fall to the ground? Why?

Who said anything about metal particles? Where are you getting this stuff from?

Shouldn't you be providing the rest of us evidence that under certain circumstances, stuff does not fall to the ground?

Go outside. Look up. Do you see any clouds?
I guarantee you they won't fall to the ground.

I did present it, multiple people stating radar images being affected, and from analysis they show these particles, he also states that they are using tons of this.

That is evidence, maybe you don't like what you hear, but right now you're denying it. Like I said, if you really WERE interested, you wouldn't be here trying to deny evidence you'd be looking for it yourself.

Remember when I said how scary (and dangerous) it is to believe everything you hear without doing the proper research. Why do you think this case is an exception?
If someone makes a claim and provides absolutely no evidence to back up that claim, why should I believe him?
Also, making claims is NOT evidence as you seem to believe.

So maybe you can tell us how long a normal contrail stays there, you can't seem to answer that one can you? More than one hour you say? Is that as precise as you're gonna get?

Get it through your head man. THERE IS NO SET TIME. This has been stated many times in these threads.
One can last for only a few seconds.
What makes you think there is a set time for contrails? Contrails act like regular clouds. Some can stay for hours, some dissipate rather quickly.

I have, what you did was ignore it, or, like you just did now, just tell us "ooh I've seen it all, I've studied the atmosphere!". But yet you fail to answer common questions or refute any of the evidence.

I have answered every question you posed. If I missed something let me know and I'll go over it.
Refute what evidence? Hard to refute evidence when you still haven't presented the evidence. (And again, people simply making claims is not evidence)

Have you contacted those people? Asked them where the particles came from? Where the radar images came from?

And why didn't you? And why are you instead still here claiming there is no evidence? You could be on the phone with them right now, yet, you choose to sit here and ignore what is presented to you.

1. Contacted what people? The ones making the claim? Well simple. Their cell phones don't get good reception in their mother's basement.
Get real man. They obviously have an agenda. If I explain to them how our atmosphere works, and how radar works do you honestly think they'll listen? Of course not. They'll claim I work for the government or something.

2. Ok, what evidence am I ignoring? Simple question. Please provide a simple answer.

That's funny.

So I take it you have nothing to back up your statement?

That's a serious assumption there.
But please tell me why I should trust your expertise when you can't even tell me how long contrails could persist.

You shouldn't trust my expertise. You should research for yourself! This is seriously basic stuff.
And again, I can't tell you how long they last because no one on earth can. Given certain conditions you can possibly make an estimate as to how long they'll last (under a cold high pressure, they'll last longer), but conditions are constantly changing.

You know you can't answer it, because a) you don't want to be proven wrong and b) you're afraid someone turns up and shows you evidence of chemtrail that persists twice as long as you claim.

How about I ask you a question....how long does a chemtrail last?

And back to the fingers in ears technique.

So are you going to show this evidence or what?

And you study atmospheric phenomena? Sure. And I fly a sled with deers.

Well good for you.
Now how about you address the post.

You keep struggling with semantics here, but condensation still happens after evaporation.

Not always.
Pour a nice cold glass of water. Now feel the bottom of the glass. Surprise! It's wet. Why? Was there evaporation? Nah. The water was simply cooled enough (below dew point).

Sorry if I challenged you by not mentioning the exact steps, I assumed that was a given, especially for someone who studies the atmosphere.

Please. You're changing your answer now (and even the change is still not completely correct).

No, not in any case, by definition it changes state. It doesn't dissapear.

lol
As I stated, nothing on Earth lasts forever. Or any other planet for that matter. Do you see water on Mars?
Water is nothing but Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms. These atoms split apart all the time.

People who study the atmosphere and contrails say that.

Ummm...no. Can you provide a link to this?

You on the other hand seem to have no clue other than "more than one hour". What does that even mean? And how does that explain trails that linger for an entire day?

I said they can last for more than an hour. Not that they all do. What do you mean "what does that even mean?"
Are you not able to comprehend "more than an hour?"
Should I put it in minutes for you? Ok....more than 60 minutes. Is that better to understand?

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird

You keep struggling with semantics here, but condensation still happens after evaporation.

Not always.
Pour a nice cold glass of water. Now feel the bottom of the glass. Surprise! It's wet. Why? Was there evaporation? Nah. The water was simply cooled enough (below dew point).

And what process is taking place to form the water at the bottom of the glass you think? Condensation, and what is condensating? The water from the surrounding air that was first evaporated!

Originally posted by Recouper
Well, I'm no expert, but I'd like to challenge this.
When you are getting rained on, the cloud raining on you is generally above your head. I know, rain clouds don't float around at 30,000 feet, but when something is falling, down is the general direction.

Yes....
I'm not disputing that. When it rains though it is not the cloud that is falling. It is precipitation from the clouds. The man in the video claimed the cloud descended and he was able to gather samples of it.

So, to avoid your spray from getting conveyed 300KM away, wouldn't you just need to know when the wind at that elevation is not blowing?
And I don't know, maybe the civilian sector can't forecast that, but what about the military. Weren’t there top secret weather balloons in use during the 60's? I'm not suggesting black magic here, I'm just suggesting that one group knows something another group hasn't invested the resources to find out.

Civilian airplanes fly at those levels. They HAVE to know the weather conditions at that altitude. We (civilians) also use weather balloons that go even much higher than that.

..but to dismiss this chemtrail idea at this stage... well, it just seems to me that there is a potential here for colossal disaster.

I'm simply dismissing people's claims that contrails are really chemtrails. Now if there are planes sparying unknown substances about 20-25,000 feet lower, then yeah, you'd definitely have something to worry about.

Originally posted by Shroomery
The water from the surrounding air that was first evaporated!

How do you know this?
Again, water is hydrogen and oxygen.

These atoms combine and split all the time. Water does not have to first be evaporated for it to form. That doesn't make any sense.

My my. What heated debate this always produces. The facts are even ER docs are going public regarding upper respiratory infections after heavy sprays. The potpurry of unusual trail photos. And the most unusual black trails that sometimes follow spraying. In my always humble opinion this is not an artifact I am familiar with for 45 yrs on this planet.

I haven't been here long, but I do believe that this thread has some of THE most ridiculous rebuttals that I have yet to see.

Let's cut to the chase..let's suppose I gave you the benefit of the doubt and gave you the position of "not one visible trail in the sky is a chemtrail, they are all contrails", does this negate the fact that government's worldwide are spraying chemcials in the air? NO! There are organizational websites such as the one I offered earlier , added in again here: www.weathermodification.org... that clearly show chemicals are being used for a variety of reasons. This particular org is focused on cloud seeding. I don't give a rat's behind how "high up in the air" it's occurring, nor do I care whether it leaves a visual sign of it's occurrence or not! The FACT is that chemicals ARE being sprayed. To dispute such a thing just becuase you're bickering over PETTY semantics of whether one particular photo is a contrail or a chemtrail is pathetic and doesn't give the serious nature of chemicals being used in our air (and water supply as it falls to earth in the form of precipitation) the due alarm that it deserves.

Considering the overwhelming evidence in just this thread alone (including patent numbers) I can only conclude that those here trying to state that chemicals are not being used are people who have a vested interest at some level to ensure that people are NOT informed to the chemicals being used.

And for you weather people --

www.weathermodification.org...

Clearly shows a picture of a created cumulus cloud over the desert of the United Arab Emirates. Choke on that one!

Whether chemtrails are visible or not is such a petty argument to be focused on. Visbile or not, a trail of chemicals IS being left behind from these planes.

[edit] To OP: [/edit]
It's probably been mentioned in this thread already, but figured I would help chime in that... you can't disprove something by proving that another means to the end is plausible. But, it's still nice information to have. Thanks for that.

[edit on 10-3-2008 by fwombats]

Originally posted by Apsaroke

And for you weather people --

www.weathermodification.org...

Clearly shows a picture of a created cumulus cloud over the desert of the United Arab Emirates. Choke on that one!

It a cloud seeding company's website - showing the effects of cloud seeding.

What on earth has it got to do with contrails being chemtrails?

Look up the phrase 'aerosol campaign' on a search engine. The type and number of admitted government programs is interesting.

In addition to the results of searching the phrase 'aerosol campaign' which brings up NASA, etc., there is a list of alleged visitors to Carnicom's site (I haven't actualy seen the logs, so....but if true, the sheer variety of government and corporate visits is extremely interesting. The URL is www.carnicom.com... , then click the drop down menu on the right that reads 'surveillance' and click on 'list of visitors'.

[edit on 11-3-2008 by carole9999]

reply to post by carole9999


But I've visited Carnicom's website ..... so what does that tell you?

A few actual chemtrails for those who want to compare them to regular contrails which are frequently confused with chemtrails by supposed Meteorological 'experts', at hiding their own ignorance one can surmise, who keep assuring us that the Earth is going to hell overnight but that no one is supposedly doing anything!








Pictures comes courtesy of Scott Stevens over at weatherwars.info...

Stellar








[edit on 11-3-2008 by StellarX]