Smokers are people too!

I dont smoke, but i'm pro freedom and we are not free.

reply to post by Daedalus


Decorum please. Not only is it against the T&C it does nothing to forward your argument.

reply to post by goblue


So using your logic of "there is bad stuff everywhere, don't single out smoking", for people in smoking and non smoking households the risk to the non smokers in the houses should be the same right? Yet in the article cited, there is a 16% greater risk to the non smoker in the smoking household. Where is the added risk coming from, all other things being equal?

I personally don't care if you smoke just don't do it by or near me. Thank You.

I have read the articles you posted, there are far more studies in support of second hand smoke being an added FACTOR in many health ailments, then there are studies showing no links. I just showed you a link how some of the "second hand smoke really isn't bad" studies are flawed as well.

Vision:

You must live in a big city. I dont see any reason why you have to walk through a carcinegon infested air. If there are people smoking in front of you surely there is enough room in the world to walk around them. If you do live in a big city look up how many little cigarrets do you think it would take to make that much smog/smoke and how many homes could it fill. If you are so worried about the air you breathe that is probally scary for you.

lets try to keep the name calling to a minimum

debates are more effective when emotions are removed.

Originally posted by Daedalus
What i find hilariously ironic about this gent, is that while he's sitting here railing against smoking, his avatar is some old bloke, smoking a pipe, lol

It's mostly for looks, I admit. We as a society have been trained to think of pipe smokers (like old C. Jung, here) as thoughtful intellectuals. Cigarette smokers are viewed as sexually active and aggressive. They're social signals. But we should be smart enough to see how we are manipulated by imagery.

Originally posted by Daedalus
First of all, please, for the love of whatever imaginary friend you believe in, learn to use the fraking quote tags right.

And you should learn how to use the "Quote" button. Get over it !

Secondly, your arguments are becoming increasingly MORE illogical. please stop it.

Only irrational smokers would think this.

This is a typical excuse of the irrational smoker. Since we can't eliminate all the causes, we should eliminate none. Nice logic.

And this is representative of a typical argument from your average ignorant anti-smoker. "Let's infringe this group of people's rights to eliminate this ONE thing that annoys us, and ignore the other, more important issues..because, ya' know...they're convenient to us."
you're a hypocrite.

And you're proving your ignorance or lack of understanding of the english language. I, at no point have EVER said we should eliminate the rights of smokers. My only point is that smokers should not eliminate non-smokers rights. I don't care if people smoke. People do a lot of things that are bad for them. My only point was that non-smokers should not be subjected to smoke if they don't want to be subjected to it. In other words, I was suggesting that maybe smokers could be more courteous when in crowds of people? My bad for thinking they might consider how other people feel.

Actually it's just fine. The problem is you don't want to hear it because you're a smoker with an addiction and when you believe your addiction is threatened in any way, you lash out just like any other drug addict.

No, it's not "just fine", it's moronic in the extreme....we're here to deny ignorance, not foster it.

Yet you're here denying reality. By your argument that makes your comment both hypocritical and moronic-Your words.

You're saying just because other people's smoking annoys you, we should have to be inconvenienced. It's already been shown in this thread that your health concerns are not nearly as drastic as you make them out to be, so you can get off the "you're going to give me cancer" bollocks....

Smoking is a cause of COPD.
Smoke, among other things is a lung irritant and can initiate asthmatic episodes.
Smoking has been scientifically linked to lung and other cancers.

Let's take another extreme analogy and lets set aside legal implications for a moment:
You smoke in a public place while surrounded by people and it bothers them regardless of health concerns. You don't care about their feelings so you light up. If they don't want to smell it they should all just leave.

What if someone decided to pee into the crowd because it's their bad habit? Urine is sterile so there is no health threat. So why should be person be inconvenienced to find a bathroom?

And comparing us smokers to "drug addicts", is just laughable....when's the last time you saw a smoker kill, or rob someone, so they could get a cigarette?

So nicotine isn't an addictive drug?
There's an international underground cigarette smuggling trade.

I honestly can't tell you how many people end up in the hospital or die each year from asthmatic episodes but I did post some information a few posts back feel free to read and hopefully learn

Ok, i'm not interested in how many people end up in the hospital, or die from asthma attacks...i'm interested in how many fatal, or near fatal asthma attacks are caused by errant, heavily diluted cigarette smoke. If you can't come up with a (reliable, and properly sourced) number, then please don't try to use it as a point in your argument.

The reason I know it's a valid argument is that I have asthma and it happened to me. There you go.

Rescue inhalers are not a 100% cure all. Before spouting a comment like this, please look into it a little.

My kid brother has asthma, i know all about it...

Yeah me too as I also have asthma. What's your point? Do you smoke around them? If not, why not?

It's very interesting how you keep lashing out at me like a typical addict.

This is just blatantly inflammatory, and defamatory, at the same time...not to mention complete rubbish too....

Actually its blatantly accurate. Read the posts and you'll see the lashing out.

I'm not lashing out at you like a typical drug addict. You don't like my argument, so you automatically assume i'm just another stupid drug addict smoker, who's lashing out because they think their addiction is being threatened. gimmie a break...

And you assume I am another non-smoker that doesn't know what they're talking about. What's your point?

If your argument was "i think smoking should be done outdoors, because i don't like the smell" well, then, that would be valid.....but you try to work the health angle, and use absolutes, and it's not working, because it's bull#...so in reality, you're masking your personal agenda, with a veneer of fake concern for others...

I've never used absolutes.
I have said I don't like the smell.
My personal agenda is as follows: I don't care if anyone wants to smoke, I don't want to be subjected to it for many reasons
1. I have asthma and since cigarette smoke is a lung irritant, I can end up having an asthma attack. I have posted supportive scientific fact regarding this but of course they were ignored.
2. It's an eye irritant
3. It smells awful and it's very difficult to get the smell out of your clothes.

I have posted my personal agenda over and over.

Again, with the shark comment, you use a totally idiotic, and invalid comparison, to try and make a point. Cigarette smoke is in no way like sharks. You're comparing apples and oranges. Will you please stop doing this?

Actually it's very valid. I'm sorry you fail to understand it.

Proof you don't pay attention. I never said, "if you smoke you WILL die from it".

Nope, you never said those exact words, but you make the implication every chance you get.

NOPE. I have said on more then one occasion that it increases risk ONLY. I've never implied more. Stop reading into something that just isn't there.

How about this:
I have asthma and cigarette smoke has, on more then one occasion, initiated an asthmatic episode with one sending me to the hopital. My granfather died from emphysema related illness from cigarette smoke. My mom is currently on oxygen with COPD. She stopped smoking 25 years ago and has had several doctors tell her it was from smoking cigarettes. Is that enough RESEARCH for you?

I'm sorry to hear about your health issues, and those of your mother. I am also sorry for your loss. However, your personal experiences are NOT representative of every single person on earth. Genetic predisposition plays a very large part in whether or not we contract certain diseases, and how severe they become.

Very true. Some people can smoke their entire lives with minimal consequences while others can develop serious problems in a short amount of time.

I have never said my experiences were indicative of everyone. My point is that some people have these problems and they are related to smoking. Why can't smokers take those things into consideration before lighting up around someone who may have these problems?

Would you smoke in a bus full of kids?
Would you smoke around someone on oxygen?
Would you smoke next to a baby?

I ask you these questions knowing that you probably wouldn't smoke around these individuals because they are easily identifiable groups of people who you know, could be damaged by smoke. They're easy to pick out in a crowd. There are also other groups of people who can be damaged by smoke and are not quite as easy to pick out such as COPD and asthmatics.

Originally posted by goblue
Daedalus:
Has there really been a second hand smoke cancer victim. I am not good dealing with people telling me this is bad for me and this is not but. Did you happen to read all the things that cause can cause cancer on the list I posted above. It stated things like vegetables or friut can cause cancer. When you buy a commercialy grown apple from the grocery store or almost any vegetable is has very toxic chemicals on them. Of course anti smokers dont care that if you eat that apple or vegetable it will not hurt the people around you but it could give you cancer. Isnt that called a double standard round these parts ombre.

I don't know if there's ever been one....that's why i'm asking the guy if he can find us one....

I don't know why you and adigregorio seem to think i'm against you.....if you don't then i'm sorry, but the way your posting toward me, looks to me like you think i'm fighting you.

Originally posted by intrepid
reply to post by Daedalus

 

Decorum please. Not only is it against the T&C it does nothing to forward your argument.

My apologies, sir...i'll keep better watch on how i conduct myself.

[edit on 6-3-2008 by Daedalus]

Originally posted by goblue
Pavil: Your icon thing on the side of the post says michigan on it.

I grew up in Michigan. The snow there sticks around for a while. Serious question do you think that snow on the side of the road and in parking lots there is black because of smokers. There is no where to hide from it. Please open your mind and look at the big picture no matter how much you want to believe a cigarrete is not going to have a better chance at causing asma in some one compared to that black soot. I have been in a house that was smoked in for a long time and it will leave a yellow like stain on the walls after a while. Does that years of smoking that causes yellow really sound worse than BLACK soot that causes a week to build up.

Air pollution is bad yes. But does that automatically mean smoking is good? NO.

Also the color of the pollution is not necessarily indicative of the seriousness of it.

reply to post by Daedalus


I do not think you're against me, I didn't form my reply to you in a constructive manner for which I apologize now

As for the anti-smokers, still spouting the asthma bs are we? Guess they can't even read something posted right in front of their eyes. Who is in denial now?

You make me want to blow smoke in everyones face! Of course, since I am considerate I will not. But still, you should be happy when I magically get lung cancer from something that does not cause it I will die and that will be one less smoker stinking up "your" air.

On a side note, I didn't know it was "your" air, may I see a bill of sale? Seems to me that the hate filled ones are the anti-smokers, not the smokers. Which would show that the less savory are the anti-smokers. Too bad we can't ban the filthy lies that come from their mouths, like they can ban my smoke.

reply to post by Nohup



Then what are cigar smokers? Just curious.


Don't think I am the rabid anti smoker that you may think. Feel free to smoke as long as it doesn't infringe on others.

You can be a polite smoker or non smoker for that matter. I get tired of the extemes of both sides of the arguement. Both are just as bad in my book.



[edit on 6-3-2008 by pavil]

Originally posted by jfj123
Also the color of the pollution is not necessarily indicative of the seriousness of it.

What? What kind of logic is that? Let's not consider color, what about volume then? I know you won't be convinced but there's comfort in the fact that readers will look at this and decide for themselves what is logical and what is not.

reply to post by intrepid


AMEN to that Intrepid! It is a comforting thought that not all people have the same problems with logic. I have posted a plethora of documents, and they have been avoided like smoke! If I close my eyes, it doesn't exist!

The popular socialist plea today is, "for the children," and the anti-smoking propagandists have played this card to the hilt. They tell you, for example, that the incidence of children with asthma is going up because of smoking.

If the increased incidence of children with asthma is going up because of smoking, why is it that when fewer people smoke according to their statistics, then more children develop asthma? Duh?? Their arguments may sound good ("for the children"), but they are total nonsense.

Second hand smoke does not cause Asthma. There are no allergens, protein or protein-carbohydrate complexes, present in tobacco smoke to cause attacks either. But, asthma attacks can be psychosomatic. And, thanks to the anti-smoking group and the media, a child who has been told that tobacco smoke triggers an asthma attack possibly will have an attack if tobacco smoke is visible. (Numerous clinical trials have shown that no attacks occur if children do not know that they are in the presence of tobacco smoke.)

Source

Yeah second hand smoke causes asthma. Can we say NOPE!

Quit with the lies, and do some real research.

reply to post by Daedalus


Yes I know that. My point is regardless of how bad it is, it's bad and why push smoke on non-smokers who don't want to inhale it?

reply to post by jfj123


Why push clean air on those that want smoke? Besides, there is SMOKE EVERYWHERE to say that my smoke is worse is hogwash. Grasping at straws, I think so.

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by jfj123
Also the color of the pollution is not necessarily indicative of the seriousness of it.

What? What kind of logic is that? Let's not consider color, what about volume then? I know you won't be convinced but there's comfort in the fact that readers will look at this and decide for themselves what is logical and what is not.

Sorry, it was just a funny ha ha comment. The poster indicated two colors, one for each type of smoke. It was just a joke. Not very funny mind you but a joke nonetheless. From now on when I joke, I will give you a "heads up" and let you know so as not to seem "illogical".

Originally posted by adigregorio
reply to post by jfj123

 

Why push clean air on those that want smoke? Besides, there is SMOKE EVERYWHERE to say that my smoke is worse is hogwash. Grasping at straws, I think so.

Oh come on
When has clean air ever hurt anyone?

Lets make it real simple. I think you should be able to smoke anywhere you want except around those who don't want to inhale the smoke. There is a time and a place for everything. In some places, smoking is just not appropriate. For example, should teachers be able to smoke in daycare?

Why is it so difficult to simply have consideration for your fellow human beings. Smoking bothers people for many reasons and you know it. Why would you intentionally want to irritate people?
Do I play my radio as loud as I want? NO of course not as I have consideration for my neighbors.
Do I let my dog crap on the neighbors lawn? NO
Do I urinate anywhere I like? Of course not !
Do you think it's appropriate for people who chew tobacco to spit anywhere/anytime they want?

It all comes down to consideration. What's the big deal?

JFJ123: Wake up and smell the Smog. Air pollution does not make smoking good as I have tried to state nothing is as good as we wish it could be. There is still something we can base good and bad on, are friend logic. I have already said it but how many little cigarrets would it take to fill the cloud of smog over our big cities. Perception rules most of our lives how something like a little cigarrete can scare people so much is beyond me, there is a cloud of smog that would take a trillion cigarrets to make above most of our heads. The fruit and vegetables you eat to stay healthy is LACED with pesticides that can cause cancer and other really scary stuff but you eat it with out thinking twice. How can some person smoking a little cigarrete scare you so much. Think for your self and not what you are told to think and dont be so worried I guarantee you there are more unhealthy things in you daily life if you just sit back and take a look.









Daedalus: Sorry about that it was intended to be a point and I ended that in ombre should have been ombres.