The Gullibility of Evolutionists

Originally posted by AshleyD
I might be losing the plot at this point but I laughed myself into tears at that. Hope it at least gives you guys a smile.

Heh, if there's poofing to do, best done in style.

But back on topic: I think that's pretty fair to agree on an initial 'poof' at the very least. I don't agree but it's nice to see that some can admit it as a possibility.

I don't agree myself. But it's got to be easier to stuff a poof in that gap, than in areas where the evidence is well-established, relying on innumerable poofs. I actually think that gap will eventually be filled with non-poofs - science appears to do that quite regularly as the fog of ignorance rolls back. So not a good thing to base a belief on.

The term 'god of the gaps' was actually coined from Henry Drummond (an evangelical dude). Some have a tendency to fill gaps with poofs. We've done it for thousands of years. Drummond essentially pointed out that an argument from ignorance is a vacuous defence of your faith. Thus, saying 'science can't explain x, therefore god' is intellectually bankrupt.

There are reverent minds who ceaselessly scan the fields of Nature and the books of Science in search of gaps--gaps which they will fill up with God. As if God lived in gaps? What view of Nature or of Truth is theirs whose interest in Science is not in what it can explain but in what it cannot, whose quest is ignorance not knowledge, whose daily dread is that the cloud may lift, and who, as darkness melts from this field or from that, begin to tremble for the place of His abode? What needs altering in such finely-jealous souls is at once their view of Nature and of God. Nature is God's writing, and can only tell the truth; God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all.

henrydrummond.wwwhubs.com...

And in the main he makes some good points. He did make some 'meh' comments as well though, but no surprises:

No man can run up the natural lines of Evolution without coming to Christianity at the top.

From the point of view of your faith, it can't help it to be forcing obvious canards into children's minds. The cognitive dissonance must be dreadful. Must be bad enough with the fears induced from the hell concept, but to actually place a child where they are so divorced from the real-world evidence? Meh!

[edit on 20-3-2008 by melatonin]

Originally posted by riley
AGAIN. Evolution and abiogenesis are not the same thing.. how many times do creationists need to be told this?

PSST. Riley. I know this. Which is why I wasn't the one who brought it up. Only responding.

Originally posted by melatonin
Heh, if there's poofing to do, best done in style.

As usual, Mel can see the humor while the others only throw tomatoes.

And, yes. I know what 'God of the Gaps' is. But as you know, I am still a proud member of the 'Poof Brigade.'

[edit on 3/20/2008 by AshleyD]

reply to post by AshleyD


Ash, Mel...you're talking about gaps, as in, 'god of the gaps'...but we seem to be missing the point of the IMMENSE time spans involved!!

Our little third rock from the Sun has gone 'round and 'round about 4.3 billion times, give or take a few million...there has been a LOT of drama on this orb, stuff that we, the latest tenants, can only discern by picking through the leavings. Please, remember, the extent of modern HUMAN has only been about 100,000 years, or so. Step back, and put that into perspective.....

Not every dead thing will fossilize, we've established that fact. What's more, our planet's crust is constantly changing, plate tectonics see to that. BUT...the simple fact of the incredible diversity around us, and the specialization that happens within certain biospheres and habitats, that is sufficient to indicate a natural process at work.

So, 'gullibility' of evolutionists? A red herring....

There is a deeper question, and it isn't addressed in this thread -- what 'sparked' life in the first place?!?

You wish to argue about minituae, the bible verse the koran verses...etc, ad nauseum...all stuff written by HUMANS who are trying to understand the world they evolved into...we are just children, really...with no parents.

I'm reminded of 'The Lord of the Flies' when I see how the human race has conducted itself over the centuries. We need to grow up.....

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Ash, Mel...you're talking about gaps, as in, 'god of the gaps'...but we seem to be missing the point of the IMMENSE time spans involved!!

Ah! You misinterpret me. I have no use for such intellectually bankrupt ideas. I really do think in the case of abiogenesis we will eventually develop a coherent natural explanation.

At this point we have lots of good findings, lots of very good ideas, many disparate. We also have many problems to overcome. But I'm quite sure we will get there eventually. But at this point, we don't have a coherent explanation like we do for biological evolution. It's nothing to be ashamed of.

So, my point to all the poofters, don't depend on the apparent gaps for your faith. It is very likely to be filled, as has happened repeatedly over time. Us puny humans can do quite cool things with science.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Ash, Mel...you're talking about gaps, as in, 'god of the gaps'...but we seem to be missing the point of the IMMENSE time spans involved!!

Weed, you're such a sweetheart and a peacemaker! I respect you for that immensely. But, as Mel explained, neither he nor myself accept the 'God of the Gaps' explanation. He thinks science will eventually explain everything one day (so no gaps in the end although they may be there at the current time) and I believe there are no gaps because science is the handiwork of God.

Originally posted by AshleyD
He thinks science will eventually explain everything one day (so no gaps in the end although they may be there at the current time)

I'm generally optimistic, but not that optimistic.

I don't think there will ever be a point where we feel omniscient. Generally, in science we answer one question and uncover many more, heh. Always more to learn and understand.

reply to post by AshleyD


Um, Ash....you presume to suppose what Mel believes....

Can science answer all questions? Ahh, I doubt it.

There is something else going on...and NO, I am not converting to the idea of the Christ, I am simply trying to point out that while the concept of the Christ is a step into a Spiritual path, it is only a detour, IMO.

What I mean is, the concepts of Christ's teachings are the point...idolization of the man is a cul-de-sac.

Sorry to step on toes here...what has happened, IMO, is that the message has been confused with the messenger.

The message has been offered to Humans from various 'messiahs'...but instead of taking it to heart, the general procilivity is to 'idolize' the messenger, and build a following around that message...which is a completely selfish tactic by certain persons in positions of power, throughout the centuries....

Eek! The semantics police are on my neck again.

Yes, 'all' is a bit of a stretch. Just pointing out the two sides of the 'God of the Gaps' argument.

I wholeheartedly agree it will never be 'all.' Why? This should be obvious by now. 'All' would require accepting God into the equation but by their very methods they have admitted to this cannot be done. It must be 'naturalistic.' So, no. It will never be 'all' because God is apart of that 'all.'

reply to post by AshleyD


Ash...semantics?

Let's ask this, since it IS your thread, after all....

'GOD' has been thrown around a lot, lately....

To paraphrase from a classic movie..."why, in all of the bars in all of the solar systems in all of the galaxies, do you come into my life?"

'Why' are we here? 'How' did it happen, initially?

This is where organizied religions fail us, sorry...but Spiritualism can lift us up off of our feet and carry us along............

reply to post by AshleyD


but you're making an assumption that "God" is part of the "all"
...actually, you're making the assumption that any deity exists in the first place

the natural world clearly works without the inclusion of the supernatural into the equation.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
but you're making an assumption that "God" is part of the "all"
...actually, you're making the assumption that any deity exists in the first place

Ah, but it is not an assumption on my part. It is something I am 100% certain about. If you asked me if God existed ten years ago my response would have been, 'Pfft.' Ask me today, 'Oh ya.'

reply to post by AshleyD


Ash, you are ever thoughtful, and well-informed.

Seems you had an 'Ah-hah!' moment some time ago, according to what you wrote. We all aspire to that feeling, I suppose...mine was when I, as a young boy, realized that organized religion was nonsense, and based on myth and hearsay....but this post isn't about me.

You have a strong faith, and that is something to respect, of course. Since this is about gullibility, I think it is OK for me to ask this question:

When you contemplate the immensity of the Universe does your belief in God have any doubts? What I mean is, as you seriously consider what is around us, do you not think that a God would have to be LARGER than its realm? Not sure if this makes sense, it is difficult to put into words.

BTW, when I mention immensity...here are some numbers to consider. Our Galaxy, about 200 Billion stars. Other Galaxies, about 500 Billion others, each containing beween several Million and several Billion stars each. That is a lot of real estate!

We are just specks on that landscape...so, what makes US special??

Sorry if this is too deep....

reply to post by weedwhacker


Didn't we already discuss this on this thread?

My opinion: I do not know for a fact life exists on other planets but I do know it is within God's power to create life anywhere He chooses. To me, it would even be within His character to do so. I've never been big on the whole 'alien thing' and admitted when we discussed this previously it would only be speculation on my part as to what all it entails. However, it is possible. Probable, even.

reply to post by AshleyD


you may be certain but it is still a massive assumption on your part.

essentially, until you can prove it, it's an assumption
...or at least until you make a logical case for why it isn't an assumption

reply to post by AshleyD


Ash, I hate to 'thump' you on this issue, but it tends toward the larger questions here.

We have to attempt to comprehend the immensity of 'God', and put it into context. You say 'He' can create life wherever 'He' wants...OK, let's run with that notion.

You said 'wherever', but you forgot to realize it could also be 'whenever'! Over 14 Billion years of time elapsed, so far, the observable Universe, and WE are the ULTIMATE result?!? That stretches credulity, sorry.

I understand there is something going on, but we just can't throw a 'god' at it and then claim we know all because we 'know' god. Isn't that simple.

One thought, when we see the huge Universe around us, and contemplate a 'god' behind it all, we must then logically question how this 'god' came to be in the first place. Where was the true beginning???

reply to post by madnessinmysoul & AshleyD


Hebrews 11:1

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

I used to be a massive skeptic as well. I had to stop arguing about the chicken or the egg thing for a while and just learn the Bible some and all of sudden everything fell into place. Miraculously, it all makes sense to me now. It was nothing I really did. It was a supernatural awakening. I don't even understand how God granted me the faith. The evidence is my faith.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


'The evidence is my faith' ???

You are very lucky to live in a society that allows you to have your own opinion...because, really, a 'faith' is nothing more than an opinion.

Bigwhammy, you don't have god to thank for your right to believe in what you wish to, you have the sacrifice of many before you to allow that right. Hope you consider this as you live your life.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Miraculously, it all makes sense to me now. It was nothing I really did. It was a supernatural awakening. I don't even understand how God granted me the faith. The evidence is my faith.

Just wondering bigwhammy,

How old do you think our planet and the universe actually is? ..and how old did you think they were before you had your 'awakening'? I would genuinely like to know.



[edit on 21-3-2008 by riley]

reply to post by riley


I think it is really really old... always have. Contrary to popular belief, Genesis is not about the creation of the universe. The Hebrew word reshet is translated to "In the Beginning" it represents a period of time not a point in time. The first words of the Bible "In the beginning God created the havens and the earth" could represent 20 Billion years. It does not say. The 6 day account that follows is about the preparation of the Garden for man. I get this from Hebrew scholar Dr John Sallihammer, who studied the text in the original language. He can read it and comprehend it like an ancient Hebrew because he has spent so much time reading ancient texts.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Thanks, Bigwhammy, that is very interesting. BUT, even a modern Hebrew scholar, who can read the language, still must interpret it in our modern context, in order to tell you about it.

Does this make sense? The art of writing is very recent, in the course of Human history. Most knowledge, for generations, was passed down in lore form, stories. Only in recent times, especially since Gutenberg, have the 'masses' been allowed to learn to read and write.

SO...very simply put...written language was not known to MANY, MANY humans for centuries....it was meant to be the purview of the 'priests' or whatever controlling authority it was called at the time. The 'scriptures' that comprise many 'sacred' texts were secreted from the people, and interpreted and interpreted and interpreted, over and over again, by hte 'Powers' in charge....namely, the leaders of whatever church or synagogue or whatever had the power, at the time....

Reading words, translated from Hebrew, does nothing to prove 'god'. Science, and strongly peer-reviewed studies are far more convincing......

[edit for clarity]

[edit on 21-3-2008 by weedwhacker]