Are the people of Britain readying their pitchforks?

Out of curiosity, how many people would consider voting for an 'outsider' party rather than Tory/Labour/Lib Dem?

I don't mean one of the existing fringe groups... the Communist Party, the BNP, UKIP or whatever. I mean a centrist-orientated party (so it can take the good bits of both the Left and the Right, cherrypicking the best from both worlds) and not be tied down by old ideologies (as most of our present parties are, because their histories stretch back at least a century - much more in the case of the Tories and the Lib Dems).

reply to post by neformore


I think you misunderstand my point. I know that your history and values have meaning to you. I think every people in the world attach value to their culture and history. What I am asking is; is YOUR government on board with this? Are THEY behaving, not talking, as if your sovereignty matters? Our governments, a bunch of them, all over the world, are acting together to collectively undermine the individual sovereignty of nations. Including their own. My point is that here in the US, we dont want to be the UK. You there, dont want to be the US, but our leadership (yours and mine) is moving us in a direction that makes OUR wishes, and our "nationality," irrelevant. Instead of fighting with the citizens of other countries, who in essence want the same thing you do, we should collectively be looking at our leadership, and taking them to task for working against what it is that WE want. Us, the majority. Common people everywhere.

And just a small side note, because many of us are descendants of immigrants from the Isles, by definition, we share your history and a lot of your culture. At least the part that occurred before our ancestors left. Our most recent history diverges, but depending upon when we individually arrived here, many of us share a great deal of history with you. Our ancestors who were from there and contributed to that land and that history did not get "erased" simply because one of them at some point either chose, or was forced to move here. And while I understand your patriotism, you do not get to take MY history simply because you dont like it.

When I opened this thread I expected a few replies. I didn't expect so many well thought out responses to the problems the U.K is suffering. Usually, with this type of thread, the responses might be 50/50 in agreement. Many would slag-off the OP and similar observers for deriding the government and for casting the U.K in a negative light. I opened this thread stating to the effect that the British heart has changed and that people are more than just aggravated with the many problems our country has. The responses in this thread seem to confirm my opinion.

We have some fantastic minds, bright and warmhearted people. We have, still, a fantastic landscape. We have (despite some) many very hard working people. British people do more unpaid overtime than any other European nation (when I worked in Holland, when the working day ended, my Dutch colleagues downed tools. The Dutch would never start working before time and took the whole of their break entitlement on time). Britain also has a long history of being downtrodden and of overcoming those who dare tread on us. We have a fantastic and varied language that lends itself to all concepts thrown at it. Our language has been borrowed and used (greatly because of history) around the world. We have many reasons to be proud and few to be embarrassed.

A sad thought I have is that our sense of nationalism is getting bigger at the expense of our proudness to be British and tolerant.

Gordon Brown will keep giving away our money to other nations. He can hope that this giving will encourage them to see Britain as a rich and powerful nation. Hoping is all he can do because from what I've read in this thread, many people, not just the British, can see that British society, British people and British morality are in trouble. The cat is out of the bag, it is making a lot of noise and I don't think it is going to quieten until changes have been made. I'd like to see Gordon Brown ask his beneficiaries: "Please may we have some of our money back. please?"

Some of my personal feelings of some issues raised and not raised by other posters are:

Immigration: it's not a a bad thing. Every human being has a right to betterment. I do believe there is a limit of what an immigrant should expect of a host and of what a host should expect of an immigrant. When an immigrant or anyone else is able to support him/herself without working or claiming benefits then that's fine by me - if you have money, and do not claim benefits or in any other way burden others financially then you are not forced to work. When a person cannot support him/herself he needs to work. An immigrant should not have benefit rights until he has paid into society (the same for everyone else too). Benefits should be limited in duration and should be dependent on an individual's contribution to society and the nations wealth.

I do not think that the right to vote in elections should be universal. I think first generation immigrants should not be entitled to vote. I'm not saying immigrants should not be represented. I just think that many immigrants have divided loyalties and a different direction to a host country's population. Maybe my opinion will change or modify with time.

Wealth redistribution: it causes more problems than it solves. If someone is rich he/she should not be penalised for it unless the wealth was acquired through crime. If a person is financially poor and/or has a low standard of living then society has a responsibility to provide a means for that person to improve his/her situation. An opportunity should be open to all fit to grasp it; but the idea that all people are equally capable should be stamped out. Every person is unique. What one person is capable of another might not be. When people consider themselves capable of something they are not, they not only hurt themselves but also those around them and sometimes prevent others from reaching their potential. Everybody has a right to improve but sometimes we have to be realistic about our potential achievements.

reply to post by magicmushroom


I understand the reasoning. I really do. And you are right, it is tempting to take a short term gain. (lower cost in hiring the Polish contractor in your example) The point is, if you have to, via taxes, pay that difference in cost and then some, you arent really saving anything. You are shifting the cost from a direct one, the cost to hire that person, to an indirect cost, taxes. You arent saving anything, you are moving the cost around so that it looks like you are, but only in the short run.

And why train up your own citizens? Because it is an investment in your own country, your own people.

Unions operate on the principle that banding together and not allowing cheap outsiders to come in and take jobs keeps wages up for EVERYONE in the union in the long run. Even people not actively IN unions benefit because often those higher wages and better working conditions "spill over" to the population at large. Even though unions get a lot of bad press, and are of course subject to corruption as any organization is, go back in history and examine the living and working conditions of the common man/woman before them. It really wasnt pretty. You dont throw out the whole idea of unions simply because a small percentage of union members are lazy or corrupt. Not if you are wise you dont. You figure out a way to deal with those "bad apples" and you keep the union in place. Essentially, allowing industry to import as much cheap labor as it wants simply because some of your countrymen and women are "lazy" is cutting your own throat to spite them. Particularly when, as I said, you are paying via taxes to subsidize this cheap labor. You lose twice.

These choices require a long run vs short run viewpoint. What is good for you in the short run may really be detrimental to you in the long run. It doesnt do you any good to buy something you dont really need on sale marked 10% off if you have a 29% interest rate and you have to buy it on a credit card, does it?

I feel bad for you guys with your crappy government. Then I looked at when the next election is to be called, and I saw they had until mid 2010! Or at the very least June 2009. You guys are really screwed just like America after electing Bush in 2004.

I see that whole chav thing spilling over into other countries as well. In Canada here drugs are on the rise, youth crime is definitely on the rise, and it will get worse.

Good luck.

Originally posted by rexpop
Dude, you have no idea - my sister is like the total epitome of chav, and she's just always so angry. Also, I've only just managed to escape Plymouth, a city in the SW currently suffering what I like to call a "chavalanche". But... they just don't care. Care about what you ask? Well, that's the wrong question. They simply don't care. Full stop.

I know I'm generalising, and probably being wicked unfair, but it's hard to detach myself, you know? I just see Britain turning into a police state from the top-down and a racist, anti-freedom, anti-thought concentration camp from the bottomup and, seriously, it seems to me that the "rest" of us are just caught in the middle.

Chavalanche. Love it. Im using that, starting tomorrow.
Seriously though, i 100% agree with your sentiments. BULLSEYE.

This is a kind of generalised opinion but I think one of the best things that could happen to this country right now is for a re-introduction of both resposibility and accountability from the top down. To me this seems to be at the heart of many of our problems. Corrupt politicians, incompetent fat cats who are rewarded for incompetentce with obscene pay offs, nasty chavs who've never been called to account once in their lives, proffessional litigators and benefit scroungers.

It undermines peoples sense of fairness and right and wrong, not only that but when previously decent people see this played out time and again they lose heart and become uncaring about anything but themselves and thus the virus spreads.

reply to post by Cantwara


I agree with you about responsibility and accountability. The problem is that many people want empowerment without either responsibility or accountability. You might want to read another thread I opened, ID Cards, The Reason They fail Society. I need to re-word it a little because on re-reading it, I've noticed the opening paragraph doesn't quite exactly say what I wanted it to say.

I would suggest we should have added integrity lessons into education before we started our run for this current capitalist brick wall (I'm in favor of capitalism btw).

I speak to my niece and nephew quite often and find they are very pissed off and have every right and reason to be. When I was young we believe what we saw on the television and read in the papers. These days the net highway produces alternative views and as a research tool, it becomes easier to find out what's really going on in the world. You will probably find by talking to teenagers and most kids today that they have a better understanding of current events than any children and/or young adults in the past. They have ever right to be angry, but in schools teachers and administrative staff are demanding that angry kids be placed on prescription drugs or be expelled- and this speaks volumes between the lines. Kids have had it politics and religion.

I do not know how the younger population bode in Britain, but I can probably assume its similar. Being that things are far worse in Europe right now, Britain having a successful revolution would definitely inspire our kids to revolt and bring about change and re-instate of our constitution. I would love nothing more than this to happen- we could use a little more hope on our side of the pond!

Originally posted by dk3000
I do not know how the younger population bode in Britain, but I can probably assume its similar. Being that things are far worse in Europe right now, Britain having a successful revolution would definitely inspire our kids to revolt and bring about change and re-instate of our constitution. I would love nothing more than this to happen- we could use a little more hope on our side of the pond!

Well the majority of teenagers i come across are ignorant morons. They know little of history and think they're entitle to everything they want without doing much work for it. I think this is the crux of the matter, they want the celebrity life but don't think they need to work for it. They want a large house, jewellry and other frivolous things but just don't want to work for it at all.

It isn't just teenagers though, i have known many people my own age (22) who know absolutely nothing abot history, politics, government or current events. Yet if you ask them which celebrity recently had the hair on their nether regions shaped into a lightning bolt. they'll be able to give you the name, time, date and hair trimming shop that did it.

There is no one single problem, people keep blaiming it on one thing or another. Some think it's the breakdown of the family, others that parents aren't doing a good job, some blaim the schools, others blaim tv, music or video games. I think it's everything put together, a shotgun effect that many are susceptible to.

With people like these there will be no revolution and what is worse is our voting at the moment! The turnouts are awful, how can a country be considered democratic if half of the population won't commit to the process? People with extremist views always tend to vote, if this isn't addressed then we will end up with a party in charge that everyone will regret. In 10 years time many of the older generation who realise the importance of voting will be gone and when they are the turnouts will take a very sudden drop.

I still believe things can change, but we're close to a tipping point where if things aren't fixed we will spend many years regretting it. As for a revolution, well i am happy to take a part in it, i doubt it will ever get going though. People are to comfortable in front of their televisions, being told everything is fine if you just buy a new possession of some kind or other.

I will continue writing MP's on issues that bother me and voting when there's a vote. It's all i can do right now i guess.

reply to post by Ste2652


Ste2652, here is an answer to your question:

The New Party

I've shamelessly plugged this party on ATS for a few years now and their membership grows. I believe that they represent what many in Britain want to see of a Party in Government.

If you like what they say, spread the word. Come 2009, we need to get as many people out voting as possible.

In 2005, the Tories polled 75,000 more votes nationally, yet Labour remains in power with a 96-odd seat majority. The Tories, shockingly, would need an 18% swing in the opinion polls just to get a one seat majority in order to win!

Overall, the turnout for last general election was little over 60%. Of that, Labour managed to secure the votes 37% of those that voted (only 22% of the total electorate voted Labour).

The Cons got 32%, yet Labour still has a massive majority, even though they only led the Cons by a few %.

How can 32% of the population only get 198 seats, whereas 37% of the population get 356?

Part of the problem with our "first past the post" system of voting.

For example, if a constituency had 30,001 registered voters and 10,000 voted Tory, 10,000 voted Lib Dem and 10,001 voted Labour, then Labour would win the seat, even though they only got 1/3rd the vote.

The other 20,000 people would be stuck with a Labour MP and, inherently, a Labour Government, even though most people didn't vote for them!!!

That's what we have now. Only 37% of those that voted went for Labour, yet they have a huge majority and the other 63% of the population are stuck with a Government they didn't vote for.

The process favours the incumbent government, not least because they can decide when to call an election.

In short, the system is screwed.

We need everyone out to vote in order to make sure this bunch of cesspit dwelling, quasi-communist, bunch of lefty-loons gets booted back to where they came from.

Everyone, please, for the love of all that is good, TALK POLITICS with everyone you meet. Get people interested, make sure that they speak up.

I know many people I work with all feel the same as many do on this thread, but what do any of us do about it?

Nothing.

We just bitch and moan, when at the end of the day, it's our apathy that allowed Labour and their supporters to have such a control over us.

stumason

A fantastic post stu, it's true that our system doesn't represent the actual voting public. We need a system that better represents the actual votes cast of the individuals and not the seats. If 32% vote tory, 32% vote labour, 32% vote lib dem, then the house of parliment should have those exact proportions of MP's to represent us.

Right now as you said we may have some MP's who only one third of a constituency voted for, yet they get to vote on important issues like the EU constitution whilst the other 2 thirds of people (the majority) don't get their views upheld.

Most people do just complain, in our system though the only tooks we have are public demonstration and writing to local MP's, the prime minister etc.

The reason the votes do not add up, is because it is screwed. Dead people are voting in Malaysia. I strongly recommend you all take at look at this thread www.abovetopsecret.com... by Ruggeder. About votes in the U.S. Now if this is how things are done in two countries, you can bet your life its been done in others. Including yours.