Are the people of Britain readying their pitchforks?

reply to post by snertone32


Hi, I'm sorry to hear that Holland is going the same way as the U.K but I have to say that for the just-over-two-years that I lived there (recently) I, as an immigrant, didn't see the ID cards as used in Holland as being any more intrusive than the British National Insurance card nor did I hear my many Dutch friends and colleagues (and I worked at Schiphol) talk about them as being intrusive nor mention the RFID element. If Holland is going the same way as the U.K then, as I say here for us Brits, people need to voice their concerns and ensure they are heard. It says a lot about the U.K when I say that the quality of life in Holland is as it could be in the U.K - Holland is what our forefathers fought for Britain to be like. Things must be very bad in Britain for me not to have noticed government intrusion at a lower degree as you mention it is in Holland.

As for the "Nothing to hide, nothing to fear" element, I say one of the following three: "Nothing to fear, nothing to hide.", "something to fear, something to hide.", "something to hide, something to fear." Every one of us (we are, probably, all of us human) has something to hide from at least some person, group or entity. We might just be hiding from a debt, an ex-lover, a criminal informed on, a gang that terrorised and forced a move to a new area, a stalker, a government that insists on knowing all of our private details (this is not the case yet, but would you really want for any old civil servant to know where your birthmark is, weather you have had a vasectomy or when you last visited your doctor for Viagra or laxatives). If someone wants to know something about me then they can ask me. If I want to know then I will tell them. If I need proof then I can arrange it. Governments should not be given the power that ultimate knowledge gives over the people it is supposed to serve - most people feel obliged to someone who can threaten to reveal their little secrets/embarrassments.

reply to post by Rapacity


I agree with pretty much all of your comments, though I should point out if you are going to use a pitchfork, have you read the correct "Health and Safety" manual and completed a risk assessment, we may even have to produce a document relating to its use "How to pick up the pitchfork and use it in the correct manner" or even have a training day. Hope we have coffee and biscuits...

Yeah, its funny but its not... "Polictical Correctness" and "Health and Safety" will kill this country, ive seen the government produce documents on "How to move a chair from one side of the room to the other" and "How to clean up a broken light bulb" and recently stop a pancake race (think organised by the church) due to health and safety reasons....I mean come on. Where is our common sense...

There are way to many issues to discuss, though another one I find ironic, are criminals claiming compensation if they get hurt during a robbery, against the shop owners...How is this possible?

But I havent lost faith in the everyman, and thats supported by the people that post here...

We are going through change, and I hope it will get better...if not im heading to Europe, France or Italy not sure yet.

Change seems to be the keyword on ATS at the moment.

Regards,

JQ.

reply to post by John Q


We might have to hold back the pitchfork lead revolution until the printers have produced enough health and safety guides to ensure no-one gets hurt. I am looking into the possibility of getting a few hundred thousand bendy rubber ones with H&S warnings printed which will include the slogan "May contain nuts."

We the people are getting more and more agitated and the opinion poll reported by the BBC here should be part of the parcel letting MP's be forewarned of the public backlash that will come with the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty (councilors take note too, because many of you are just as bad and up for the same treatment).

I watch the exchange rates between the Euro and the Pound and I reckon that the pound will have an equal to, or lower value than, the Euro by June/July this year (for me, that is good, because I have more Euros than Pounds but for many it will be bad and I feel for them already). I say June/July because, if I remember correctly, the Lisbon Treaty will be ratified then.

I think I could write my own manifesto on how I think Britain could change for the better.

But I don't share this sense of hopelessness that some seem to have. We are a nation with a great past, but I don't think our best days are necessarily behind us. Sure, chances are we'll never rule a quarter of the world again, but we don't need to.

I do feel proud to be British, too - I'm patriotic (though not a nationalist). I don't really consider myself as English (again, I could write at length about why I think being English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish is flawed), and I absolutely don't buy into this whole EU superstate idea. It won't work, so let's not try because it'll all end in tears. That said, I think the EU as an organisation could be a positive force with further reform (devolving more powers to the European nations, making itself more transparent and democratic, and not extending itself into areas where it is unwelcome) and I wouldn't advocate withdrawing from the EU.

Are Britons readying their pitchforks? Not yet. We don't do revolutions... that's what all those rowdy foreigners do!

However, unless politicians really start to engage with the public I think we could be in trouble in the future as people become more and more apathetic.

I think people are being a bit over the top on this subject, the fact is that life changes, its in constant motion and most people dont like change. Who cares if immigrants come or go as long as they work and respect our laws which I must say the majority do. Its easy to sit back and moan about everything and do nothing about it and we all do it but when you actually look at the situation its not bad at all.

The majority of people in the UK live like kings and Queens compared to so many others, we dont live in fear of our lives, war, torture, famine or anything like that. were becoming a nation of moaners when we dont realise just how well off we are.

Okay, judging from the perspective of one used to looking at conspiracies in our continental cousins over-seas, i think it might be possible to come up with some conspiracy on how this might all work.

What's important is to take a very definitive examination of the current majority's vices over the issue, and we can all agree that the fact that a Briton's rights are being placed at a lesser priority to the rights of immigrants and refugees, but why is this?

True, many may feel that isolation from Europe is a worthy and intelligent path, and for many reasons this is true - but it isn't a long-term understanding of the situation.

Because of our isolation, we have essentially set ourselves up for economic instability - we can not rely on foreign aid from european nations for help in the case of oil shortages or even massive uncontrollable fluctuations in our economy (that some would take as a sign of an economy that is "Out-Of-Control").

This essentially means that as far as our nearest neighbours are concerned, we're on our own.

All we have backing us is the one-way support from our distant relatives on the other side of the world.

Perhaps it would be best to compare the problem to an individual basis - a person who isolates himself from others cannot receive help.

This also means that in a national perspective, our problems are our own - we feel like we shouldn't have to ask for help anyway, so why bother?

The reason is simple; Because of our bolstered Foreign National Tax that we get off the immigrants, the Immigrants themselves receive benefits and other social advantages that were in some cases impossible in the places where they came from, and this means that when they write home to their families (if they have one) the people in those families generally say good things about England.

So because of our ever-expanding population of immigrants, even more immigrants will be attracted because of the relative success of those already here.

So essentially what we're looking at, in simple terms;

Those population graphs that everyone sees with exponential rises in population?

Well, we've essentially added a variable that could be compared to a nitro injection fed into the engine of a super-car.

Pretty soon we'll all be living like the japanese in cramped apartments the size of your living room.

The taxable funds are impressive, to say the least.

From here the question is simple;

Are the people in Britain being gold-farmed with disregard to our social identity?

The answer is Yes, most likely.

So not only do we have the immigration/population problem, we also have the problem that the Government is trying to fix all our health and social worries by using the immigration problem to solve our social problems.

Kinda like two wrongs making a right.

Except, of course - this doesn't facking work on an international environment, which is what the problem of immigration is.

Government conspiracy, or Idiocy?

Originally posted by magicmushroom
I think people are being a bit over the top on this subject, the fact is that life changes, its in constant motion and most people dont like change. Who cares if immigrants come or go as long as they work and respect our laws which I must say the majority do. Its easy to sit back and moan about everything and do nothing about it and we all do it but when you actually look at the situation its not bad at all.

We here in the states care about immigration not because of racism, as some would like to make out, but because it is a simple economic fact that supply and demand sets price.

We are given the argument, as you are, I do read your news, that immigrants are taking jobs natural citizens refuse to do. Which sounds good, but simply isnt the truth. They are taking jobs that natural citizens refuse to do at that PRICE. What should happen, if the market were not being controlled in favor of industry, is that pay rates would go up. And then natural citizens would happily take those jobs.

Allowing immigration simply to increase the supply of labor in favor of industry does NOT help the average citizen. For one thing, the taxpayer is in effect subsidizing that labor. Especially in a social structure like yours, where you have decent health care, housing schemes, etc. Those "cost savings" to industry are picked up by the taxpayer, as that cheap, willing labor then gets the "benefits" that their employer does not provide, but is instead provided by "the state" and funded with YOUR, the taxpayers, dollars. In essence, you lose two ways. Your wages are kept at lower rates than your natural population would dictate, AND you pay via your taxes to provide services, housing, education, health care etc. for this cheap labor force.

Sure industry "sells" this idea to us by claiming that only the crappy jobs, menial, hard, dirty work, is being given away. But not all natural citizens of any country are suited for "white collar" jobs. Those "menial" jobs, if they paid well enough, could be done by the segment of your natural population that is best suited to it by nature or circumstance. I myself have dug ditches, with a pick and shovel, to make money to go to college. It paid well where I was. No job is "beneath you" if it offers a wage that allows you to move ahead and have a decent life. There is no shame in physical work if the wage is decent. The problem is, immigration policies are set according to the needs of industry, not you, the citizen, who would benefit from a lower population. Housing prices are also a product of supply and demand, food prices, the length of time it takes you to get treated in a hospital, crowding on the roads, etc.

I certainly would not suggest that NO immigration be allowed. But immigration to a country should be considered in terms of its impact on the whole. Not simply evaluated in terms of what is best for industry.

Edit: It also occurred to me to point out that your leadership has also historically been perfectly okay with the export of its human "resources," (and consequently lowering the population) when that has proved to be a better economic option for THEM. Consider the land clearances when sheep proved to be more profitable than farming. I think the problem, universally, in all nations, is that people need to see where their own interests are. And not simply "buy" the line of reasoning that is sold to them by very self interested individuals who happen to have the means, access to media and the money to pay for it, by which to spread their line of reasoning effectively.


[edit on 2-3-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]

Rather than taking up pitchforks, we should at least try to vote the traitors out of Parliament peacefully, if we were to refrain from re-electing a single member, then all those elected would be 'new' and hopefully not yet 'bought and paid for'.
Follow this, with the largest peaceful rally ever seen at Westminster and make clear once and for all, the wishes of the people of these Islands.

In hope of peace,

Horsegiver.

I do feel when speaking to people at work, on the streets etc that yes there is a lot of anger and resentment about many facets of our lives at the moment. It seems your average person is being shafted on the one one hand by govt and the forces of uber capitalism, then they're being hassled, intimidated and brutalised by the social drop outs that roam the streets and estates. I don't think the revolutions quite hear but unlike some I think we're reaching boiling point and it'll be a good thing too. We labour under a contradictory yoke of over liberal attitude foisted on us by those who never have to suffer the consequences of their ideologies and money making entities who see decent people as just a means to make themselves obscenely rich by any means fair and increasinly foul.

No doubt some see any discontent as evidence of intolerent, middle class hysteria, but they need to get out more.

Illusion, here in the UK its not a case of taking jobs we have a skills shortage, if our own people are to lazy or lack the oppertunity to develope skills its hardly the fault of skilled workers who come here to fill those gaps in the labour market. What I see is people sat on their fat arses complaining about imigrants especially Asians. Asians I may add who run small businesses and work up to 14 hours a day 7 days a week who then have to put up with low life scum abusing them every day of the week. Its not just about the money alot of it is people who expect a living for doing nothing and we have plenty of them here in the UK and I mean white people.

I'm ready to take to the streets, armed if it needs be. I'm 25, a small business owner, and also an artist/photographer and I am sick and tired of the Brown government meddling ever more into the lives of normal people whilst at the same time letting the louts and wasters get away with anything.

I don't for one minute think that any government is perfect, or that the Tories would be that much better, but I do know when the piss is being taken and this government are doing it. Every time we see them they are full of hypocrisy! Fiddling their own expenses whilst not budging on the police pay issue, telling us all we shouldn't drive and taxing fuel to the hilt whilst they all swan around in huge Jaguars and Range Rovers, teaching a whole generation it is wrong to be proud of our nation and then wondering why people have no pride in where they live, surrendering our sovereignty to the EU without even asking us, fiddling every statistic they ever publish, telling us we shouldn't use plastic bags whilst they order millions for their own promotions, threatening employers of illegal immigrants with massive fines and jail even though the Home Office was caught employing dozens of illegal immigrants, loosing millions of people's personal data whilst being anal about data protection regulations for everyone else, being more bothered about fining speeders than catching murderers, kissing ass to Islam at every opportunity and making everyone else scared to even breath for fear of causing offence, expecting our troops to do more and more with less and less, creating a health service that pays GPs over £100,000.00 a year when many people can't even get an appointment with them, allowing us to be taxed ever more for sitting in jams that their own policies have created, presiding over a public transport system that has got horrendously expensive and unreliable, and letting the United Kingdom fracture and risk disintegration. Not to mention the fact that no one actually voted for Gordon Brown! I could go on, but I will be here all day...

When does the revolution start? Seriously I'm ready.

reply to post by magicmushroom

There are a hell of a lot of lazy dispicable white British people, living on benefits, sitting in front of their widescreen TVs moaning about how there are no jobs that they'd be willing to do, when in reality they are far from 'above' menial work. They are a big part of the problem.

BUT you have to bare in mind, the amount that those menial jobs pay should be higher. And if they were higher, the indigenous Brit would happily take up a mop and do them. Corporations and employers have the luxury of paying very little for those jobs simply because the vast rate of immigration into Britain means there are more than enough people willing to do those jobs for that money. Without that immigration, those employers would be forced to offer higher wages - and that's the crux of the matter. It's in the employer's (i.e. for the most part, the wealthier section of society) best interests to sustain mass immigration so as to keep wage costs low.

reply to post by magicmushroom


I do see your line of reasoning. I just disagree that importing people is the "answer." Not that allowing some skilled immigration would not benefit the whole, certainly many immigrant DO contribute to the overall welfare of a nation.

You bring up the issue of lacking skilled workers. The question would be "why?" rather than simply "import it" without addressing the underlying factors that are causing this "lack" in the first place. The UK is NOT lacking in people possessing natural intelligence. Nor is it lacking universities and other institutions of higher learning by which to hone this natural intelligence. Where is the bottleneck? What can be done about that? Can improvements be made to the educational system that would increase the number of skilled workers from within the natural population? Could the "profit" that is being skimmed off to the highest levels of society be adjusted somewhat so that these skilled jobs pay salaries that justify the cost of acquiring those skills?

It does appear, on the surface, that people can be "lazy." However I would argue that within most of these "lazy" people, a rather complex but unconscious formula has been run that has led them to the conclusion that overall the benefit they derive from taking employment does not cover the costs of that employment. To a human being, "cost" can be their time, their dignity, their privacy, their overall treatment, the toll it takes on their bodies, etc.

That there are countries in the world that have conditions much worse than those in the UK or the US is unquestionable. That there are, and will be for the foreseeable future, people who will evaluate that "cost/benefit" analysis differently than the natural citizens of those countries do is also without doubt. However I would argue that the natural citizens of these fortunate countries are not simply "free loaders" to industry, who should be "grateful for what they get." They are participants in, and co-creators of that economic system. They have fought the battles that secured the resources for that country, or their ancestors did, they have done the labor that built those industries, defended their leadership against enemies, and provided from among their ranks many of the intellectual properties that are benefiting that society.

Most people, given the opportunity to do decent work, however hard, with decent treatment and respect for them as a human being, that allows them the time to lead a satisfying life, and pay that allows them to keep ahead of the cost of living WILL work. The problem is in our countries that our economic systems are not set up to allow that. Companies are being given increasing leeway to peer into your personal off work life and dictate what you do in your free time, change your schedule at will with no regard for you, pay you wages that do not effectively keep you ahead of the rising cost of living, (all the while feeding you as a consumer grandiose ideas about what "living" entails) ask that you come into a job with expensive training that you yourself have paid for, that may be redundant in 5 years.

Apathy is NOT the basic human drive. Self interest is. It is why communism failed in many places, there was no motivation to work hard and efficiently. No chance to get ahead. The problem is in countries like the US and the UK is that current economic policy is not designed in such a way that the average natural citizen can have a real hope of a better life. We know that not everyone can get the top 1% of salaries. We know that someone has to be in the bottom classes, and if we suspect that that someone is us, we tend to want to "make up for that" by increasing our "wealth" of time. Not working.

Importing more cheap labor and driving wages down really, logically, does nothing to repair this underlying problem. It makes it worse. And you add to the general discontent by increasing cultural conflicts and crowding. Importing labor doesnt make the "lazy" person disappear. You arent trading them out and removing that section of the population. And the second generation of immigrants does NOT have as a baseline the horrible conditions of their "home country" and feels no less entitled to better treatment than the natural citizens do. It is a terribly short sighted solution, which is to be expected coming from the business sector as it does. They make decisions from quarter to quarter. Your long term benefit is NOT their goal. It SHOULD be yours.

I think the solution is to take a good hard look at how much is too much in terms of profit skimming by the upper classes. And a good look at the long term feasibility of the pyramid shaped economic structure that requires an ever increasing base of poor working to support a smaller leisured class. That structure is doomed, by nature. In a finite system, you cannot have infinite supportable expansion. And we are in a finite system. We have finite natural resources, finite habitable geography, and the environment has a finite capability for dealing with the by products of industry.

"More people" has worked in the past. But it will not work forever, and in fact there are indications that it is already ceasing to work. Humans know this instinctively. Everywhere they CAN control their birthrate, have access to and no religious prohibitions against birth control, birth rates are dropping voluntarily. We know we cannot go on this way. It isnt rocket science. The lower classes are seeing it sooner because we are the ones facing the consequences of it first. (Scarcity of resources, crowding and the associated rise in violence) The leadership is loathe to give up a system that is still working for THEM, they want to squeeze every ounce of profit from it that they can. They arent going to stop until they have to. It is up to us to say, at some point in time before the whole thing has gone too far, enough. This can be done politely, using democracy. It neednt be an ugly thing, but it does have to happen.

Originally posted by Britguy
They took all our pitchforks away!
Followed by knives, cricket bats, rolling pins and pointy sticks. All we have left are non-lethal means of coercion and a sharp tongue - as long as we say nothing that could be in any way offensive to anyone white, black, slightly dark skinned with oriental features, blind, deaf, blonde or with a slightly gammy leg!

With all that in mind, perhaps it's best to stay home and keep quiet

Alas, that is what your government no doubt wants - for all you sheeple to just fold up your rights and beliefs while the muslims gradually take over.

Sad example of what happens when people allow their government to disarm them (Australia and Canada are next). So, exactly what ARE you supposed to do now, hope you can vote in someone more to your liking? See anyone like that that's running for office with even a remote chance to win? I didn't think so ...

[edit on 3/2/2008 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by centurion1211
Alas, that is what your government no doubt wants - for all you sheeple to just fold up your rights and beliefs while the muslims gradually take over.

Had you bothered, instead of just simply delving into the anti-muslim hate rhetoric - to do some basic research you would know the two following things

1. The muslim population makes up less than 3% of the total UK population.
2. The Archbishop of Canterbury was recently totally, and utterly publicly embarrased and ostracised for publicly contemplating about the possible introduction of minor elements of Sharia law in the UK.

In other words, thats not going to happen, and you are revelling in uninformed and uneducated ignorance.

Sad example of what happens when people allow their government to disarm them (Australia and Canada are next). So, exactly what ARE you supposed to do now, hope you can vote in someone more to your liking? See anyone like that that's running for office with even a remote chance to win? I didn't think so ...

You are trying to compare the US and the UK. The problem with that is that the US is not definitely NOT the UK. Never has been and never will be. Neither are other countries.

Still, I'll take my chances on our political system and the way we do our politics thanks - rather than vote one way and have a diebold machine register me as voting for someone else.

One of the problems stem from the illusiuon of choice that Britain has. We are essential a two party state. Even then you would be hard pressed to see the difference between the two parties.

Without a choice what the [profanity] do we do. We can't use the political system in its current form to change things. How do you vote for someone who is pro civil liberties, when there isn't one..

Originally posted by neformore

You are trying to compare the US and the UK. The problem with that is that the US is not definitely NOT the UK. Never has been and never will be. Neither are other countries.

Respectfully, what does it really mean to be a "nation" anymore? We are only given our little flags to wave at each other when it suits our leadership, who in case you havent noticed, have been happily working together for decades. (Some minor bickering aside) Not just in the UK, or Europe, but here in the US as well and around the world, the rich, powerful, and well connected have been quietly teaming up, first economically, and now legally, and eroding the individual sovereignty of nations via trade unions, etc.

It seems to me, that the only people really bickering over nationality are the "common" people. And it seems to me that some of this bickering is instigated by our leadership, who quietly come in while we are snarling and barking at each other, and use that distraction as an opportunity to relieve us of more of our rights, and resources.

That tactic of "divide and then conquer" has worked amazingly well throughout history. The Romans used it quite successfully in what is now the UK. This tactic has not just been used in the UK and Europe, but around the world and in the US as well, we are set against each other over petty differences, while the real "opponent," the powerful, come in and quietly relieve us of our possessions.

I think instead of fighting one another over our quite petty differences, we "common people" should instead be looking to see if we have a "common enemy." Our leaders are not all that divided. They seem to be moving in one very common direction, although the way this goal is implemented does vary from region to region in accordance with existing laws, and the relative unruliness of the people.

We are only playing into the hands of the powerful when we fight amongst ourselves. It is one of the oldest tricks in the book, and it is shameful really, that we cant seem to catch on to that.

What is wrong with British society?

The answer lies in the reason why John Prescott was not jailed for dodging council tax, after he himself had allowed an old lady to go to jail for not paying hers.

It's the bloody politicians. All of them!

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Respectfully, what does it really mean to be a "nation" anymore? We are only given our little flags to wave at each other when it suits our leadership, who in case you havent noticed, have been happily working together for decades.

It means a hell of a lot to me. My nation has history. It has values, it has quirks, it has completely different attitudes and ways of doing things to the way they are done in the USA.

I'm not saying that anything we do here is better or worse than it is in the US, all I'm saying is that its different.

Difference is what makes the world the rich place it is.

Illusion you know what the real problem is, is this, as we open the country to the wider market employment base it means we can short cut the normal process like why train a person here for 5 years to be a doctor when you can cherry pick from abroad. And we would all do it, if you wanted a job done at home and were given quotes from an English and lets say Polish builder if your on a budget and the Polish quote is lower then you go for that.

On top of all that you have people who's sole purpose in life is to live off the sate and let others provide for them while they do nothing, I know of 5 people who do that so there must be a very large number who do and those 5 are all white UK citizens from different generations and social classes.