B-2 crash near Guam? (Update: Post Crash Pics & Video)

If it wasn't for the ART unit issues they had several years ago, I could see losing one engine, and being pushed around by the others. But like you said, this has all the hallmarks of an uncommanded control input. ESPECIALLY with the ART unit issues they had before.

Zaphod,

Exactly, and as we have no other video it would be stupid to speculate and say for sure, but uhh yeah! Interesting that most of the time it is a high tech piece of equipent being destroyed by a very mundane and simple part failure. Eventually there will be a detailed report, but whether or not the real details are in it are a different story..taxpayers have a hard time understanding where their dollars go and that war/technology is very expensive.

I expect there to be a detailed evaluation of the other B2's in the meantime, all under tight security of course.

And to whomever posted the remark about the pilot not being able to ever fly again...well, that's just not a blanket statement that can EVER be made! It is always situational, and just for your information, that pilot could possibly be considered a hero!? It just depends on what happened. He/she may have saved the other crew member and lots of other military/civilian personnel.....just wondering if that thought ever came to mind???

Peace, Mondo

[edit on 24-2-2008 by Mondogiwa]

Probably not. I usually try not to speculate, but I've unfortunately found that I'm pretty good at figuring these things out pretty quickly based on a little information. I'm not sure that's something to be proud of though.

I can't count the number of times something so tiny has brought down a plane. As I mentioned in a post in one of these threads, we lost an F-117 to not putting all the nuts back on when they reattached the wing. Same thing happened to a C-130 years back that killed everyone on board, and the QA inspector that later comitted suicide. The F-22 when the pilot failed to follow the checklist after power was disconnected for less than a second. I could keep going, but everyone should get the point of how EASILY something simple can bring down a multimillion dollar airplane. As has been repeated again and again, they are built by humans, flown by humans, and maintained by humans. Humans are fallible. It's that simple.

Zaphod,

That is the one thing to be sure of...human error is always the first thing to look at! Yep, it's usually the weak link in the chain so to speak...we had various situations when things were overlooked, but that's why you have to try to have redundancies. Anyways, I think you are probably right on the mark, it's the exact same theory I have but you flat out beat me to it! I would bet dollars to donuts on it.
I am just glad the crew got out and that nobody else got hurt! It is expensive for sure but you can't relace the humans, the equipment can be replaced! Heck, it may even give a few jobs to some people and stimulate our economy a bit? Always have to look for the positive right!?

Peace, Mondo

Absolutely! Thank god the crews got out. There's some concern about the one they sent to Tripler but they're indicating it's just spinal compression from the ejection and she should be fine with time. I'd rather pay for the bomber than lose both.

My big concern is that this is at least the fifth bird we've lost in the last month. That's a horrifying attrition rate, and one we CAN'T sustain for long. We've GOT to do something about safety in the military, even if it means a stand down day and hammering it home to them again. Five aircraft in a month in a warzone is one thing, that's understandable. Five aircraft in training losses is completely unacceptable and something needs to be done.

The accident board has been convened and is investigating. That's all the military has said today. I'll keep an eye on this over the next few days and post any updates as I find them. Hopefully we'll hear something over the next week or so.

I'm really interested in trying to see any other images as well.

Also Mondo and Zaph I agree with pretty much all you guys where talking about. The human error can occur in so many different ways with either pilots or ground crews or maintenance personnel. Its "easy" or not that hard to make a mistake and lose a plane because of the chain of events it starts rolling.

Also for anyone interested in knowing what ART is or how it could be part or have played a role in the crash. Flight has a blog posting about it and some of its history here.
www.flightglobal.com...


[edit on 25-2-2008 by Canada_EH]

reply to post by Zaphod58


Nice detective work, Z' .

In the article from your link, it appears they streamlined the repair process,
but never really formulated a permanent fix.

Don Ward, flight control avionics equipment specialist, initiated an investigation into how best to repair the actuator remote terminal line replacement units.
A team of engineers from Tinker traveled to Whiteman AFB, Mo., to provide on-the-spot training of ART repair.

The team worked on a compacted schedule around operational mission requirements to accomplish a solution. The sensitive actuator remote terminal has to be set down on a solid granite surface for repairs to ensure leveling.

Am I reading that right?

That's how it came across to me too. They made the initial repair that they THOUGHT solved the RESISTOR problem, where they had four boards running through one reisistor. But it was still overheating when they were flying over Serbia. They COULDN'T stand down the fleet to fix it. They were under an insane operational tempo. So they did an on the spot fix that may have temporarily solved the problem, or HELPED the problem, but I don't think it FIXED the problem. This crash has all the hallmarks of an uncommanded elevon deployment, which would have put them into a right bank, right wintip low.

One pilot is reporting a fire, followed immediately by a loss of control. They rolled right, and that's when they ejected. The aircraft impacted between the taxiway and runway.

The aircraft had 5,176 flying hours at the time of the accident. The estimated lifespan of the B-2 is 40,000 flight hours. The remaining three bombers returned to Whiteman, where the whole fleet went on a Safety Pause by order of the wing commander.

Now the question becomes where was the fire. An engine fire SHOULDN'T have caused a loss of control like that. I wonder if we have the first case of an ART overheat failure. If it overheated so badly that it caused a fire in the wing, and killed the flight controls on that side.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
One pilot is reporting a fire, followed immediately by a loss of control. They rolled right, and that's when they ejected. The aircraft impacted between the taxiway and runway.

Interesting stuff Zaph that I've been hearing too. Do you have a link that you can share where you got that info? Also that info then confirm the impact area as the one I highlighted earlier. As for the fire the amount of time needed for this fire to really take hold and the fact that it didn't pop up till the plane was airborne makes me think that It is less likely to be a fire but it still does look like the right elevons.

Also I had heard that the one B-2 that had taken off was sent back to Anderson AFB and the other 2 planes hadn't lifted off yet. So did they still make the flight back then after the runway was clear etc?

Sounds like the wreckage is still on the flightline as well as the investigation team has started their work.

Actually I found that Aviation Week is one of the sites that has this newer info and here is the link.
www.aviationweek.com...

[edit on 26-2-2008 by Canada_EH]

[edit on 26-2-2008 by Canada_EH]

reply to post by Canada_EH

Do you have a link that you can share where you got that info?

I'm not Zaphod58 but, here you go.

aviationweek.com

reply to post by Boone 870


I think you needed to finish reading my post with the after edits etc. lol

No worries and thanks for the post.

Looks like not much new for now. Some interesting comments by the fire chief about fighting the fire though, along with the EMTs talking about rescuing the pilots after they hit the ground. There were actually seven B-2s on Guam at the time. These four were on their way home. One of the pilots continues to recover at Tripler Army Medical Center.

"One word: Fearless," said Senior Master Sgt. Richard Lien, Andersen's deputy fire chief.

When the call came in at 10:30 a.m. on Feb. 24 that a B-2 Spirit had crashed on the flight line, 44 Andersen firefighters put emotions aside and relied on their extensive training to fight the fuel-intensified fire.

The multi-functional bomber, without munitions but completely full of jet fuel for a direct flight back to Whiteman Air Force Base, Mo., produced a 500-foot plume of smoke and about 2,000 degrees of intense heat, firefighters estimated.

"Military and civilian fire fighters were out there, 30 feet from 2,000 degree heat, putting their lives on the line to save one of the greatest treasures of the U.S.," said John Thompson, Andersen's fire chief. "Emotions were running high, but by the time the phone rang to the time the fire fighters were spraying water on the aircraft was less than five minutes."

The Andersen fire department is able to respond to a variety of aircraft in an emergency situation quickly and efficiently thanks to continuous training, including instruction specific to the B-2.

"Your mind becomes overwhelmed with the scene, but you are going through the motions because your fire fighting button has kicked in and you fall back on the training that you've received," Chief Thompson said. "We have done extensive hands-on and classroom training in advance concerning the B-2 and knew exactly where to position trucks because of where the hazards were, like possible munitions, where the fuel was and the ejection seats."

www.pacaf.af.mil...

Approximately 83,000 gallons of water, and 2,500 gallons of foam were used to put the fire out.

Crazy Zaph thanks for the news on actually fighting the fire. When you take all of what was said there into account you know for sure that there is no way that Spirit of Kansas is ever going to fly again.

FG has released a article just sorta going over the facts to this point and summarizing it all fairly well on what to expect now. Nothing that we didn't assume or already know or guess but just nailing it down.

Initial findings by the investigative team are not expected to be released for at least 30 days.....
The USAF lists the pre-inflation price of a single B-2 as $1.16 billion, making the event arguably the most expensive aircraft mishap in history......
Concerns about onboard safety issues appeared in the public domain as far back as 1990, when the US government accused Northrop of illegally supplying a faulty component in the flight-control system known as the actuator remote terminal. The USAF also continues to invest in structural upgrades to repair severe cracking in the B-2's aft fuselage.
Also, the air force warns in its latest budget request that the bomber engine's stage 1 fan blades "exhibit high levels of stress due to the inlet distortion". A combination of the distorted inlet and a foreign object damage event "could result in the loss of an airfoil and a catastrophic in-flight emergency", it says.

www.flightglobal.com...

The inlet and stage 1 fan issue is a new one to me as I must have missed it when the news was released but for now the earliest that we can expect solid news releases on findings is around March 13th.

B-2 doesn't use anti-gravity technology, because it doesn't even exist. If it used it you definitely wouldn't know anything about the B-2, because it would be one of the most guarded secrets.

I can agree that it was either pilot mistake or maintainance error.

About the B-2. It is a luck that pilots ejected safely, but B-2 is really an expensive machine. It's not worth more than a billion (some say around 2 billion) dollars.

Not all B-2 models are the same. See:en
www.jp-petit.com...
and then the text:
On another hand the B2 are not the "real ones". The machine that are shown to people are nothing but delusions. The "real B2" fly only by night.

I have seen this myself. On each wing there were 2 green plasma corona 's.
It had definitely a Northropp cokpit, and is a typical flying wing model.
Within 5 seconds it disappeared behind the horizon.

reply to post by sovietman


The difference in price is if the poster or person giving the information has included in the costing the development of the B-2 and its tech and construction process. The USAF states the B-2 is 1.2 billion for each airframe. This only takes into account the cost of the physical plane and not development. Thos people who quote the plane as being @ billion refer to the development as well being divided between the 21 airframes.

Originally posted by hawk123
On another hand the B2 are not the "real ones". The machine that are shown to people are nothing but delusions. The "real B2" fly only by night.

The real B-2s that you claim are fake do only fly combat missions during the night over hostile airspace. If they have to fly through daylight to reach the combat zone thats fine as long as the operation airspace is dark. Also not sure what you mean but delusions? have I been drugged in my drinking water? If you getting at something liek that this isn't the forum for you to try and post that and expect to be taken seriously.

I have seen this myself. On each wing there were 2 green plasma corona 's.
It had definitely a Northropp cokpit, and is a typical flying wing model.
Within 5 seconds it disappeared behind the horizon.

Fine you can list all of this but how can you have seen the cockpit and call it a "Northrop" cockpit? is it special? does it have "made by Northrop" writtin on it? What are you trying to say?

Also the link you provided provides arguments that are inaccurate and not rooted in research that would have defiantly provide answers.

example

Bombing assignments have been enacted in Europe and Afghanistan, the latter being mentioned as subsonic 40 hour flights, necessitating six in-flight refuellings, most of which took place over Russia which the planes had to cross. Considering the vulnerability of a plane while refuelling, who would be gullible enough to believe such a version ? Notice also that the B2's which are shown have no bunk of any kind to allow crew members to take some rest. Could any pilot remain seated for forty hours on an ejector seat ?

Here is your answers. They bought cots at Wal-mart and set them up in the back of the plane. Tehy ahve a tolite on the plane. They train on sims for up ot 24-40 hours for these types of flight. Infact the pilots have underwent a large research program into human sleep patterns etc. Also I havent heard at all that the B-2 over flew russia on the Op allied force missions in Kosovo. Can anyone else provide insight here as I don't have time to look into it.

I'm fine to address some of this info and questions but lets not loss the focus on the crash and not get too side tracked.

reply to post by hawk123


Why don't you read that link?

I talk about all that in my book and

And if it disapeared beyond the horizon in five seconds... how exactly could you pick out what a Northrop cockpit looked like? What is a 'Northrop cockpit anyway?



[edit on 1/3/2008 by C0bzz]