Who would want to live on Mars?

Originally posted by BeamishI have gone down your route of altering images until they produce something....

See how easy it is to fool yourself?

Either that or you have mastered the technique for 'unmaskig' NASA images

And as to the "figure" on Mars; why would NASA go to the trouble of altering the image, if all they had to do was remove it?

More likely some wise guy at NASA added it in to mess with us... I know I would ... seems to have worked too, judging by the internet furor over this one, including mainstream media

Posting altered images will not sell your ideas to anyone,

Why not? It works great for Hoagland... he is making big buck from his

and saying you have to have a trained eye to see "them" is simply alienating ('scuse the pun) most people.

LOL The Aliens that run the Universe haven't given you the 'vision' yet...

shun our hardwired distrust of each other, maybe even begin to like each other.

Only if that 'life' proves to be hostile... But I wonder how the religious groups will handle it? Will we see line ups at the spaceport of Holy Crusaders on a mission?

Mars: a nice place to visit, I wouldn't want to stay.

Moon: John volunteers to be the Moon air guinea pig..

Pluto: Good stopover for the pole dancers but they only do plutonic relationships...

Earth is only one out of a google planets, the Earthlikeare not necessarily going to be friendly.

Fortunately there are more planets than we can shake a stick at. Possibly over a trillion in this galaxy alone....

reply to post by zorgon

Either that or you have mastered the technique for 'unmaskig' NASA images

That image in my post is the first time I've ever tried to manipulate NASA photos. It just made sense to clean up its edges and smooth over the pixellation. I have to admit that when I inverted the image and the lizard simulacra appeared so clearly, it made me jump! And that reaction is obviously what urges others on to find more creatures in distorted pictures.

I will restate that I believe there is life on Mars, heck, I even have a niggling feeling, unsupported by any verifiable evidence, that the Cydonia Face is a ruin. This is why visiting Mars would be so exciting; to wonder amongst what could possibly be the remnants of a society that has nothing to do with Earth.

More likely some wise guy at NASA added it in to mess with us... I know I would ... seems to have worked too, judging by the internet furor over this one, including mainstream media

Surely adding to the photographs would be a punishable offence? More likely is that it was overlooked, beign so small.

Why not? It works great for Hoagland... he is making big buck from his

Perhaps I should have rephrased that; posting altered photos is offering flimsy evidence to an increasingly tech wise audience. Photoshop has a lot to answer for.

LOL The Aliens that run the Universe haven't given you the 'vision' yet...

Well, I wish they'd hurry up, I'm sick of wearing glasses!

Only if that 'life' proves to be hostile... But I wonder how the religious groups will handle it? Will we see line ups at the spaceport of Holy Crusaders on a mission?

Finding life on Mars that is hostile puts the topic of this thread into a whole new light. And surely if there are sentient beings up ther, then wouldn't they have attacked, or at least tried to disable the Rovers by now?

And as to the religious question...Assuming that the life we may find is sufficiently intelligent to understand the concept of deity, and assuming they don't have their own, Crusaders would be the worst case scenario; trying to enforce our belief systems on an alien species. It wouldn't surprise me if evangelical types would try to gain access to this virgin territory.
I sincerely hope that some kind of "prime directive" is in operation already that would negate this happening. Religion has caused too much bloodshed here on Earth and there is no reason why we should export divisive teachings to another species.

And who knows; the Martians may well have their own beliefs. How would we feel if they tried to convert us?

I would still like to know more about the astounding claim made earlier,of personally designing the Mars Rovers. Care to offer any evidence of that?

I have worked on projects related to both the Pathfinder, and current rover missions. I'd like to know what your capacity was at JPL and in which office you worked.

The rovers were designed by a Team of engineers. There was a main team for the overall design, and additional specialized teams who worked on individual components. The wheels alone took a significant amount of engineering, testing, and redesign. As I have first hand knowledge of the Rovers, perhaps you would offer up some detailed evidence that would verify your claim of designing the rovers.

reply to post by Terapin


Yes I agree...

I too would like an answer to this one. There has been way to much.. "I used to work here..." posts without backup

reply to post by Beamish

keithlaney.net... keithlaney.net... Thanks.In my excitement I didn't credit Keith Laney for presenting that image on his page.He's providing a service and I jumped at the chance.Yeah the little gecko-looking creature COULD look like an Earth lizard except perhaps for the over-sized head....but I don't know lizards much except chamelions ae fast little buggers and will shed their tails if caught as an evasive maneuver...clever.

reply to post by Terapin
Yeah,I designed the rovers from the beginning point,as I have described on other threads.I'm the original artist.They stemmed from my head.I put the pen to paper first to draw what I conceived in 1987 spring as the future 20 years Mars project including orbiters,ground penetrating radar,including ESA in the mix to keep Nasa honest(good luck there),asking Germany for the $1 Million dollar spectrometer,spiked whells on Pathfinder(undermined by further testing and a different design for S&OP)with mixed results,Pan cam stereo design......more and so on instruments,airbags specifically made here in Delaware to boost business at home,a toy version of Mattel Pathfinder to share profits(poorest quality toy ever,yet my request was fulfilled)beware of what you wish for. The drawings and descriptions were sent to Gene Roddenberry to deliver to Nasa along with ghostwriting for trek like ships designs,the Borg concept and drawings....I'm an artist. So I was not an employee of Nasa or JPL,but I designed their JPL logo which are my initials JPL coincidentally.I've only been to the Smithsonian as a kid in the early 70's. I gave JPL the target date for Pathfinder landing as July 4th 1997,before May 1987 on paper.I designed S&OP to look like a FLY from overhead for a reason,to attract them.Motion Detectors.Thanks to Bill Nye's later addition of a sundial on the back of S&OP the recent pic of a Mars Man's head was seen/captured. The reason for 6 wheels instead of the Russian Lunakod was to avoid clunkiness and most insects(design from nature) have 6 legs. Circular driving is more easy,and wheel failure is survivable,plus anti-rollover(my worst fear). The arm and micro-imager and tools were my concept stolen from and updated from Viking(which actually found life first on Mars,although in reality the Mars life VISITED the landers and rovers). Probably even most of the crashed vehicles of Russian and American "ONE HIT WONDERS" were visited and inhabited by the tiny mini-creatures that LOVE the OP heat shields and compete for wark heated metalic space on them,like sunken ships attract fauna. I saw the need for Nasa to scale down on Mars missions and realized the humiliation that Von Braun suffered from getting derailed by stupid wars and politics.He was robbed of realizing his true life mission and was the best and brightest.The civilization he dreamed and hoped for making contact with is still there waiting for us to communicate first. If I had thought to put a microphone on any of the rovers JPL would have done so,since they did get everything else right.What a shame none of them had acoustics in mind,and I was stuck in a flurry of VISUAL MODE when designing the rovers ,large and small in Spring 1987. I knew that manned missions to Mars were such a low possibility and low priority that I felt rovers were the way to go. Roddenberry got it done,JPL got it done. I gave them jobs they would not have had otherwise with my simple ideas on paper....like billions of dollars in space and TV/Movie entertainment for decades. I was proven right when the Mars Observer failed. These 2 pics made it all worthwhile. 2 Mars men from Spirit and Opportunity 2004,17 years after I designed the rovers.

I want to live on mars. I can only imagine being able to dunk from the free throw line chanting "WAM BAM THANK YOU MAM"! or skipping to the sweet beat from "somewhere over the rainbow".
I could even win a seed spitting contest or pee 15 feet str8 up in the air. I could finally drive that ball 300 yards or do a standing backflip. I want to live on mars, yeah............ That would be cool. You know what else would be cool? living in Amsterdam. oh yea...

Mars is a great place to live!

reply to post by vze2xjjk


So in fact, you did not design the Rovers at all. You simply claim that the design sprung up from your imagination in 1987, and that you told a Science Fiction television producer about your concept. Pete Theisinger and Steve Squyres would most assuredly disagree with your claim of being the Rovers designer. (Quick, go Google them so you can claim to be more knowledgeable about the subject)

The evolution of Lunar and Martain rover designs are well documented. They did not begin their existence in their current form and the reasons for specific design changes are clearly demonstrated. The current Rocker Boogie suspension system utilized by both Spirit and Opportunity, underwent a long history of design trials and testing prior to the development of it's current form. If you had, as you claim, designed the rover in it's entirety, with all of their current specifics, then there would have been no need for the years of testing, revision and redesign that went on. Several prototypes were built and tested that utilized radically different formats. Tracked, three, four, six and even eight wheel test beds were experimented with. Prototypes were tested in a variety of extreme conditions, and those test results led to design improvements. Some designs were left behind, when better alternatives were found.

JPL even utilized a specially formulated, simulated Martian soil to test the rovers mobility. Engineers and geologists looked at all the previous data they had on the Martain surface from prior missions. They combed the globe to come up with a soil for test purposes, that was as close as possible to what they were able to determine the Martain surface was like. I have some of the soil which NASA/JPL utilized in their testing process. I can even tell you quite specifically where it comes from and why it was chosen to represent the Martain surface. These soil tests were critical to the success of the Rover missions, as they led to very specific design changes that improved mobility and eliminated a number of potential problems.

Much like early aviation, it took significant engineering to get to where we are today, and it was not a single design from the start. You claim to have first designed the Rovers in 1987. That is interesting, as the evolution of the current rovers predates the 70's and the history of their design is well established and documented.

You state that you are an artist, not an engineer, though you must be delusional to claim that YOU created the JPL logo, as I know that to be a false statement. The simple fact is that contrary to your claim, the graphic designer of their logo did not have the initials JPL. As I indicated earlier, I have worked on projects related to both the Pathfinder, and current Mars rovers. Some of my work can currently be found in the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum in Washington, DC. I am not some Noob that you can fool with false statements.

Rik Riley is also an imaginative artist, who claims to be able to 'see' things on Mars that only he can see. It takes significant manipulation of the images, which only he as a specially trained artist can undertake, and a special squinting technique that only he can master. I suspect he needs therapy. Your claim of personally designing the rovers is contrary to established history and I suspect that you have much in common with Rik. Imagination.

reply to post by Terapin

You present facts as you know and understand them.But when I did the original drawings for the Mars rovers 1987 for both Pathfinder and Spirit/Op and the JPL logo,they were in rough form on loose leaf paper hand drawn and labelled.So any graphic artist could later work them up professionally for final presentation. I also helped the Delaware company who does space suits get the contract for the making of the airbags which also demanded testing. Yes the rovers were modified after being tested,but not significantly in look or function from my original designs. It gave a lot of people jobs and insured even more jobs because the missions were successful and extended those jobs garnering more media attention,more funding and a snowball of at least some upside to the hope of future manned exploration. I only visited LA in 1986,so was not hired by Nasa,and once the drawings left my hands I was as they say out of the loop as far as contact or revisions,and only thru Gene Roddenberry did they see my work....you could call it seminal,because testing and working up models was not ever done by me....just the first drafts if you want to think of it that way. Like I said before some of my contributions won't have my name attached in the official story because those people were HIRED.But just like some people are dogged in their denial of life on Mars,there will always be skeptics,and those who believe experts,those people claiming there is no life on Mars. I'm an artist from a scientist background family(my dad worked on testing materials for the Apollo program). Twenty one years is a long time to wait for the public to catch up,and some will always drag their feet.Getting things done is also an art. The people on Mars look like us.The variety of animals is amazing,though mostly crawlers.Many are what we'd consider dragons,with a variety of looks,some like aligators,but weaker legs.Many large insectoids exist on Mars. There are some humanoids who have very small eye and a pronounced rimmed cheekbone plate.They seem otherwise like us.The animals gang up around the rovers of various species with much curiousity regularly for 4 years(both rovers).One significant change they made to the rovers S&P was that they took away my preference for spiked wheels in favor of a smoother wheel that can't grip or climb as well,but offers better smoothness/less jerkiness/jolts,working better for easy rolling on flat surfaces.Wimpy for sand traps....but hey,they tested it ,not me.I was just petrifid they'd tip over and lose all that science,so I went for LOW center of gravity and stability. The micro-creatures of Mars will tell a much bigger story later on,because they are so numerous ,and like the insects on Earth dominate by sheer numbers in the overall ecosystem. The strangest feeling you will get when seeing most of the Mars creatures is when you see some of the animals with very humanoid looking faces and bodies like snakes or insectoids. I'm also somwhat certain that some insectoids are ridden by smaller beings that look somewhat like us. There's some hesitation to name them yet.RikRiley probably should. ***Thanks to DesiLu productions for backing Star Trek

As I mentioned earlier, much of the design work on the rovers PRE DATES your drawing.

As for your Spiked wheels... They simply would not work very well in the soil types found on Mars. The "paddle wheel" like arrangement provides a far superior grip in loose soil, which is the most common type of soil found this far on Mars. Spiked wheels would also be of little use on Hard rock surfaces as spikes do not dig into rocks! They might be useful for Ice surfaces. Again, years of design work and testing prove all of this, and much of it was done long before you gave any drawings to a Television producer. Do you have any proof that Gene Rodenburry ever even looked at your drawings? He got tons of mail from fans and generally left it to his assistants to deal with. He rarely had time to deal with the tons of drawings and ideas young adults sent him by the truckload. Do you have any proof that he was interested enough to approach NASA with them??

Children have been drawing space vehicles for ages. Jules Vern described fantastic vehicles long before space flight was possible. If you look at drawings done by children in the 50's when the space race was in it's infancy, you will see similarities to designs we have today. That does not mean that they designed the Rovers. It simply means that engineering follows certain paths to a logical conclusion.

You imagined a vehicle. NASA and JPL designed them. There is no connection between the two other than convergence of logical engineering. Again, a good deal of design work on the rovers was done BEFORE you claim to have sent in a drawing to a television producer.

As for your claim of designing the JPL logo..... that is simply untrue as I indicated earlier. The graphic artist who created their logo does not have the Initials JPL.

Yeah,I conceded that the current wheels overall may have been better than my original spiked wheels as used on Sojourner.Like I said,I didn't do any tests,just drawings,and those spikes for a small vehicle may have been ideal,but may have bogged down with the added weight 300lbs Earth wt/100 lbs Mars weight on the larger,heavier S& OP. You can see the continuity of design simplicity as far as the outer look because they came from my simplistic minimalism,seen also in my Star Trek ships designs for STNG,DS9,Voyager. Very BOXY for the rovers and like a navy aircraft carrier with a deck for the solar panels. Some radioactive material to keep the batteries warm,motion detectors,x-ray imaging(no not just spectrometry) Binocular vision(3D capable).Overhead the S&OP are designed to look like a FLY to attract FLIES. As simple as that sounds,I intended that if any life was on Mars,the most basic patterns of life may be repeated on Mars,like flies,spiders,snakes.....even though I was afraid if only bacteria was on Mars,then it would be as disheartening as the first barren looking Viking pics sent back 1970's. I wanted the design alone to attract animals,and that worked brilliantly. I hope to show a nice pic of the hundreds gathered round at once.I mean not just a few but hundreds at one time. The J and L in the logo I designed as a MIRROR image,and the P mocks our Philadelphia Phillies logo. If you look at the city of Philly,it resembles an EAGLE on a map. There are birds on Mars too,and some very big,especially the fossilized ones. I'm not positive but I may have requested halogen lights on the larger rovers for use with the motion detectors in case of night visitors.I may have dropped that idea for fear of power consumption. So,after some of my original designs for the rovers were modified it was minor tweaking of neccessity rather than ground up reconstruction.The logo I designed was the same as it appears on the rovers,as I requested.JPL has since tossed around redesigning their logo....but why bother when my design was so simplistic? People like it. On the unfortunate side,which I couldn't have forseen in 1987 with limited knowledge,the rover wheels have probably accidentally run over and killed scores of tiny martian insect-sized beings from being run over if they happened to be an inch or so beneath the surface. The wheel design would be a moot point in our discussion,but actually may have saved more lives with the present design than my spiked wheels(killing machines).It's good to know your mistakes.The TURTLEHEADS make my job easier.

reply to post by vze2xjjk and Terapin


Historically documented facts cannot be refuted else there would be chaos. Just as heavily pixelated rocks on Mars do not constitute proof of alien life, a precedent is not set by coming up with an idea.

I do not say it is impossible, merely unlikely.

I use the same rule for Earthlike planets supporting intelligent life. If I claim a trillion worlds in our Milky Way, and I say we have over a million of these advanced races, does that mean one of them is around the corner? No. The chances are one in a million, and we have cataloged only ~300 exoplanets so far. That would be like hitting the winning lottery number first night out.

Same is true for life itself, even though the odds are much lower. Sure, there may be some lichen, moss, maybe some algae mats, perhaps even fossils preserved form the time of the oceans, maybe even shrubbery, but I won't bank on it with fuzzy rover pics. The conditions for life may be relatively rare, and exponentially so for intelligent life.

The eyes of Mars

Originally posted by vze2xjjk
You are wrong and I am sci-fi and reality based as you'll see with little actual effort.I'll probably show you more Mars faces of people and animals than you'll get anywhere else in the next few years. Let me repeat that there are people on Mars who look like us and wear clothes.There are tons of animals on Mars .Some animals look like our Earth animals like reptiles and snakes and rats,very common on both Earth and Mars. There are dinosaur fossils,so they appear to have a similar evolutionary pattern. None of the humanoids that I can tell wear a breathing aparatus,so for them it's breathable. Those findings alone are miles ahead of Nasa releasing that they've even found one drop of water. Does that seem logical or peculiar? If you can't see my faces in images(1,ooo images) then I can't make you see patterns,but if you ask some artist friends if they see these faces then you'll find out how good you are at pattern recognition rather than flights of fantasy and youthful desire/wishfull dreaming without the benefit of adequate info to make decisions.Test your skills friend. Dragons

Sandmarie

Froggy looking

Human wearing Cap I found April 2004

Lizards with MARBLE BLACK EYES(Nasa told you that?) nah

This is the easy stuff,hope you are getting it all

This is harder,humanoid faced dragon (still freaky)

If I lost you on that one,here's a model so you don't feel left out

Now here's the first Mars man I saw and it was very tough,so I made it easy for the beginners.

None of these images seem to show anything in my opinion.. The most convincing is the lady image and even that can be explained... As of yet I have not seen any proof, I have only heard people make sensationalist claims... I agree it might be cool to check it out and be one of the first to explore the planet and the other planets as well, but I still don't think I'd want to live there permanently...

It's ok if you are going thru a "change reaction" when you finally do see one image that hits you as real.I'm doing my best to explain in terms a high schooler could understand. The temperatures are bearable for these people because they let a baby near the rover with NO HAT ON. You think that may be significant? A dead boy in another pic wears very light clothes apparently,but his hat is OFF.He has a very big gash in his head,as does a female in another pic.You should look in my other threads because I don't want to get banned again for almost 2 weeks for spamming identical posts. If Nasa makes it tough for you to see the life on Mars,then I bend over backwards to explain it,then think to yourself what would I personally have to gain from expanding knowledge about Mars,and rushing to hasty conclusions with limited data that most people ignore for lack of interest? Test yourself and crop the top green images.Pretend you never saw what was below.Now with those top 2 green sections come up with a humaniod face.I was working with a 16 bit circa 2001 cheapo photo program that came with a scanner at the time called Photosuite III SE .It may take a little while.You might even give up,like the "whatever people."

Maybe by reducing the pic and adjusting contrast I can get a few more people to see what's there and the hoops I jump thru to get such limited original detail to yield a viewable image of a human face on Mars,sevral yards perhaps from Spirit rover in 2004 which nasa would not allow to become widely known.Did you know about fines and jail time for nasa employees for disclosure about life on Mars? Does that seem draconian and backward? does that mean nasa is covering up information that we are not ready for because we can't handle the truth? If I told you about LIVE beings and faces seen in the Viking images (1976)before some of you were born 32 years ago,and several billion 1970's dollars of taxpayer money spent,would you be able to see them? Salvador Dali would love these.

Oh they really care about NEW info,don't they? >>>

Here's what I sent Nasa this week. It's about the moon.>>>>>>> It may be beneficial to devise a "dug-in" Hab The Moon presents the problem of so much radiation exposure.A fail-safe,back-up system for
solar flares may be a dug-in hab to offer radiation shielding. If warning came in time
from solar monotoring systems then astronauts could be saved by sitting out the danger.If
you could test a dug-in system right next to an above-ground,then the benefits of both
could be simultaneously compared and explored. I conceived of the airbag landings
for Mars rovers 1987.I live in Delaware and suggested that ILC Dover get those contrats
for airbags testing and manufacture. Jerry Lehane III 50 in Delaware >>>> That was in response to a recent article about testing inflatable HABs for the Moon in Antartica.