Where in the bible does it say that women cant be ministers?

"I hope that helps clear things up a bit."

Ya, you're tripping over your words now???

Look, the last church I went to we had an older minister leading the flock. Well, some of the brothers got the idea in their head that our minister was old, and would soon be retiring, and this led to some heated discussions as to who would replace him. I watched a perfectly good church go down the tubes as a group of MEN attempted to place themselves into that soon to be position. They didn't hesistate to pull their brothers and sisters down and thru the sewers if it meant that they would be in a higher rung of the ladder! These were believers, these were MEN, and they destroyed a perfectly good church! Needlessly I might add since the pastor continued on for a few years and well, in the end brought his son in to lead the church. I guess they were decieved also.

The reason things are set up like they are is that men wanted to be fathers...to THEIR children. This meant that some control had to be placed onto the women....to ensure that they were HIS children! It was overdone by a large margin.

Originally posted by dawnstar


The reason things are set up like they are is that men wanted to be fathers...to THEIR children. This meant that some control had to be placed onto the women....to ensure that they were HIS children! It was overdone by a large margin.

So, what are you saying, that the world would be perfect if WOMEN ran the church. That you wouldn't tear each other to bits if you had a chance for power. Do enlighten me.



[edit on 21-2-2008 by bossman]

Originally posted by bossman
When the test to see the right path came, Eve couldn't see it at all. Adam still saw the right path, and choose to ignore it.

This is a very interesting observation, thank you for bringing it up.

Originally posted by bossman
Could a woman make a good preacher, maybe.

This was a nice consideration I think.

Originally posted by bossman
But it's a slippery slop at best. Many churches have fallen, and they fall because compromises were made to reach sinnful and many times selfish goals. You need not remind me of corruption in the church. My uncle was a head preacher for many years, til he was found sleeping with a teen girl.
In all the time I've known him, he does not strike me as a christrian. That is the real problem with churches, the pastors are not christian's themselves. But that problem is easy to fix. Boot them out.

Easily done in Presbyterian churches since the Pastor doesn't lead the church. The congregation votes. In other chuches where the Pastor leads, the flock tends to go elsewhere.

Originally posted by bossman
A believe who is leading follower's down the wrong path is MUCH harder. In all my years, I have never seen a male preacher who I believe to be a true believer, lead the church down the wrong path. I have seen women do it, though.

Balanced assessment I think.

This is a very interesting observation, thank you for bringing it up.

Originally posted by bossman
Could a woman make a good preacher, maybe.

This was a nice consideration I think.

Originally posted by bossman
But it's a slippery slop at best. Many churches have fallen, and they fall because compromises were made to reach sinnful and many times selfish goals. You need not remind me of corruption in the church. My uncle was a head preacher for many years, til he was found sleeping with a teen girl.
In all the time I've known him, he does not strike me as a christrian. That is the real problem with churches, the pastors are not christian's themselves. But that problem is easy to fix. Boot them out.

Easily done in Presbyterian churches since the Pastor doesn't lead the church. The congregation votes. In other chuches where the Pastor leads, the flock tends to go elsewhere.

Originally posted by bossman
I know there is no way for you to totally believe me when I say this, but, I am very serious about the church I go to. Most preachers are not there for anything but an easy job. I have gone to churches with female preachers, and ones with male preachers. Every time I choose a church, the preacher just so happen's to be male. I hope that helps clear things up a bit.

It's cool, we're here to iron out the wrinkles I think. I'm not immobile in my position, but I'll not be moved by assertion not validated by scripture (since scripture should be the teaching coming from the pulpit).

Originally posted by dawnstar
I watched a perfectly good church go down the tubes as a group of MEN attempted to place themselves into that soon to be position. They didn't hesistate to pull their brothers and sisters down and thru the sewers if it meant that they would be in a higher rung of the ladder!

That's totally ugly! I can say however, I'd seen the same exact thing happen at the last to business' I'd worked at and the leadership was women. Although I've noticed in my years of working, I work better with a male boss than female, but not carte blanc. It was a female manager who had the guts to point out exactly why I was not being considered for a leadership role. Taking her advice, I finally got somewhere. For the most part, male bosses have been understanding and easy going which I think all bosses should be, male or female. I knew a guy that was quite a gossip that it floored me when I found out all the things he liked to say about others. Why was I surprised? Because I made the mistake of assuming "men aren't like that".

Originally posted by dawnstar
These were believers, these were MEN, and they destroyed a perfectly good church! Needlessly I might add since the pastor continued on for a few years and well, in the end brought his son in to lead the church. I guess they were decieved also.

The reason things are set up like they are is that men wanted to be fathers...to THEIR children. This meant that some control had to be placed onto the women....to ensure that they were HIS children! It was overdone by a large margin.

I think the main reason why this kind of toe-stepping and backstabbing included only men is because women knew they were excluded already. I say give women an equal opportunity to toe-step and backstab (like in business) instead of knowing only half of those who would. Likewise, if God calls any member of the congregation, perhaps they deserve a listen. Paul says "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) which is not "Test half, take the best pick of that group" because, "For God does not show favoritism." (Romans 2:11). Why then should we?

" 'Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly." - Leviticus 19:15

"I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism." - 1 Timothy 5:21

"But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers." - James 2:9

[edit on 21-2-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by bossman

So, what are you saying, that the world would be perfect if WOMEN ran the church. That you wouldn't tear each other to bits if you had a chance for power. Do enlighten me.



[edit on 21-2-2008 by bossman]

no, but you give me the impression that you think men aren't apt to be decieved...and these men that I am talking about were definately decieved, big time!! and, yes, if some of those women thought that they might have been considered for the imaginary position (that's all it was.....lol....they thought...)...well, they probably would have played the same game.

But tell me, why, in God's name, when it seems so hard to find good pastors and church leaders, would you opt for a not so impressive man, and yet automatically eliminate a very impressive women? This doesn't make sense to me, any more than it does for the courts to seemingly automatically eliminate a good decent man in favor of a poor example of a women when it comes to child custody. When you run with stereotypes and predestined roles and ideas...well, that is what you get....inefficiency and stupidity!

The belief that women should be silent in church etc is not a doctrine of Christ,it is a belief of Paul.The new covenant set up in Jesus' name means that all are equal,no one has authority over another;we are all to love each other etc.The Laws of Levicticus are abolished,it states this clearly in Hebrews chapter 8.

Its also interesting to note that in one of the many books removed/banned from the Bible,Mary Magdalene is visited by Christ and is given knowledge that has been hidden from his apostles and it also appears that she too preached the words of Jesus.





[edit on 21-2-2008 by jakyll]

Originally posted by bossman
So, what are you saying, that the world would be perfect if WOMEN ran the church.

Dawnstar didn't say it, though I agree it was implied.

Originally posted by dawnstar
no, but you give me the impression that you think men aren't apt to be decieved...

I got that impression from bossman as well.

Originally posted by dawnstar
..well, they probably would have played the same game.

Totally agree

Originally posted by dawnstar
But tell me, why, in God's name, when it seems so hard to find good pastors and church leaders, would you opt for a not so impressive man, and yet automatically eliminate a very impressive women?

A good questions I think.

Originally posted by dawnstar
When you run with stereotypes and predestined

One would say men were predestined to lead according to how they understand Bible. I've countered this discussion as well.

Originally posted by dawnstar
roles and ideas...well, that is what you get....inefficiency

Probably.

Originally posted by dawnstar
and stupidity!

Easy tiger.

[edit on 21-2-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by jakyll
Its also interesting to note that in one of the many books removed/banned from the Bible,Mary Magdalene is visited by Christ and is given knowledge that has been hidden from his apostles and it also appears that she too preached the words of Jesus.

Can I borrow your binoculars? It's hard to see left-field from here. *points to the thread title*

reply to post by saint4God

Can I borrow your binoculars? It's hard to see left-field from here. *points to the thread title*

The reason for my comment was to show that Jesus believed women were worthy of knowledge and were allowed to spread his teachings,therefore,it goes against what Paul said.
His quote is the only defence people use against women preaching etc.
And as this contradicts what Jesus taught,it can be disregarded!
Which means there is nothing in the Bible (or the removed/banned books) that says women can not be ministers!!

reply to post by jakyll


Indeed Jakyll. And in that same gospel. Jesus also gives a commandment that no one was to give laws that he did not give.

From the Gospel of Mary Magdalene; the rest of which can be found here;

www.webcom.com...

33) When the Blessed One had said this, He greeted them all,saying, Peace be with you. Receive my peace unto yourselves.

34) Beware that no one lead you astray saying Lo here or lo there! For the Son of Man is within you.

35) Follow after Him!

36) Those who seek Him will find Him.

37) Go then and preach the gospel of the Kingdom.

38) Do not lay down any rules beyond what I appointed you, and do not give a law like the lawgiver lest you be constrained by it.

39) When He said this He departed.

Clearly Paul violates this order. And he goes on to not only do so, but also to set himself up as a "prophet" with no one but himself and his close companion Luke to attest to that fact. Of course not all people study the historical aspects of the Bible, nor do they research the authorship of the Gospels, nor are they aware that the Bible has been revised and changed through time. Many are under the belief that the Bible is one book that has been handed down intact, with no editing.

Even if one excludes the "Gospel of Mary" due to the fact that it was not included in the Bible, it is of note that the real Apostles, those who actually lived and traveled with Jesus during his lifetime, DID NOT go on to lay down laws and commandments. Only Paul did. And although Paul claims to be a changed man from the time when he was persecuting Christians and admittedly trying to destroy Christianity, he directly contradicts Jesus in many cases. Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount says he is not doing away with Mosaic law, but rather is modifying it in some cases. (Turn the other cheek, love they enemy, etc.) Paul says it can be done away with. Jesus says faith alone is not enough, one must ACT from that faith with compassion. Paul says faith alone brings salvation.

Consider the words of Jesus at the last supper; Matthew 25:31-45

bible.oremus.org...

Very different. Jesus never teaches that women be silent and submissive, Paul says they should. It seems to me that a Christian would rather cast their lot with Jesus than with Paul. Even if he truly did reform, and we have only his own word and that of his friend that he did, he clearly did not associate with Jesus, and from his contradictions of Jesus' own teachings, he clearly did not study or follow Jesus' examples.

Both my parents are ordained pastors....thru a church (non-denomanational)....not some online website.

My mother used her "pastoralship" for the women of the church. She held Bible studies, did conseling, etc. She also did some services on Sunday - [GASP!!!!!]

Honestly, I dont see what the big deal is. At the end of the day, I think there is far more to be concerned about. Seriously, this Christian could give 2 rat's arses what Paul (just a man) has to say.



With all that said. Boy, am I really glad they are both retired. Whew!


[edit on 21-2-2008 by greeneyedleo]

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by dawnstar
and stupidity!

Easy tiger.

[edit on 21-2-2008 by saint4God]

well, let's see.....
you decide that a person, because of their sex, or the color of their skin or whatever.....is only good for keeping your home and raising your kids, or working on your plantation curing you tobacco, whatever...so, you only offer them the knowledge that they will need to do this for you. For a long time, this is how society functioned. Jewish women at one time had very little religious obligations, so, they weren't taught most of the Torah, only the parts that they needed to know to fullfill what was seen as their obligation. They weren't allowed in the main area of the temple, but rather in an area mush father away. Thus, they really couldn't hear much when the Torah was read or much of what was said. Thus they got into the habit of just chatting and gossiping, or just didn't bother. But this attitude permeated many societies. The son of the blacksmith was assumed to be a blacksmith himself, and well, was taught what he needed to know to be a blacksmith, and there many positions in the society where the simple concepts of reading and math were really not seen as necessary, so the people weren't taught.
Kind of sounds like breeding stupidity to me, doens't it?
But, I believe there's another reason why it is stupid. To me, I believe that God has provided the answer to every problem a society faces, cancer cures, resoulutions to international disputes...everything. But well...maybe God is just a bit color blind or doesn't really see the need to run his business according to our biases and belief systems. Maybe he decides to embed that cancer cure in a young black women deep in the south in the early 1800's. And, well, her master just decided that he really didn't want her to know any more than wash his dishes, so he prevented her to learn to read, or persue her interests. It's wasted potential, which I will always consider to be very stupid for a society to do!

[edit on 22-2-2008 by dawnstar]

Now who's making broad, sweeping statements.

Originally posted by bossman


Now who's making broad, sweeping statements.

well, if that was all the churches were doing was prohibiting women from being ministers, I wouldn't mind...to each their own I guess...
but they ain't. Some consider divorce so wrong, that they would prefer a women get knocked around rather than leave the abusive husband... and encourage her to do so. Ideas such as "If the husband doesn't want her working outside the home, she shouldn't." is expressed by some top politicians on televised news shows. And, of course....they are meddling within the political spectrum in an attempt to get their view of the perfect world legislated into law. No, this doesn't describe all the churches, but it describes enough of them that all the politicians are adorning themselves with holy robes so to speak to win their votes...they are enough for the politicians to take them seriously.
No man would enjoy having someone come up to him and decide, hey, you look like a good bean picker, go pick my beans today....although there are probably centuries of history where this was how labor was handled...by the decision of another. IF men wanted the freedom to decide such things so badly that they overthrew monarchies, sailed across open seas to unexplored lands, well...it just seems to reason that women wouldn't like having their life work predetermined by another either. Love your wife as yourself, do unto others as you would have done to you......any of this ring a bell? IF you don't want someone else deciding all the little intricate details of your life for you.....don't expect women to just accept that God has appointed some man to decide them for her.

Jeshua commanded men to love their wives AS Christ loved the church
(don't stop there)
AND Gave His Life for it!!!
That is Agape love. here

Women are loved as MUCH as men by God.
Women being seen as objects for men's use and desertion is exactly opposite of
Agape.

The issue is leadership.
In the home, in the church it is for the man to be the ultimate decision maker.
(Unless, what he wants is sin!)

1Cr 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1Cr 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Many women want a 'real' man and then try to make him into a woman
through manipulation and oppression.
Everyone has seen this.
Men are different than women and they aren't going to change.
If a woman wants to have leadership at home, let her be single and celibate.

1Cr 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.

It takes will-power and self sacrifice, but the bible also says
(if you believe it)
1Cr 7:10 And unto the married I command, [yet] not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from [her] husband:
1Cr 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to [her] husband: and let not the husband put away [his] wife.


With Christ ALL things are possible.

Originally posted by tacocheesey
If you believe so much in traditional roles of woman, and you are a woman, what are you doing on here? Shouldn't you be in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant? Isn't that a traditional role? Wow.

Barefoot and pregnant is a NOWHERE in the bible.
I don't know why you got 4 stars for this!
We're talking about leadership roles and the bible, not Sharia law.

Originally posted by helen670

Originally posted by kaferwerks
I saw this statement and was wondering if someone could point me in the right directions to see it for myself. I have a hard time believing it is in the Bible...Anyway can you help a brother out?

Kafer

Hi Kafer/

As other members here have also quoted.... "Let your women keep silence in the churches" (1 Cor. 13,34).
We have a clear understanding that, woman is created in man’s image and not in God’s image.
and some others.......The first hierarchs of the Church of Christ were the Holy Apostles, not women.
The Chief Shepherd Jesus Christ Himself appointed them to tend to God's flock, to administer the Church,
to celebrate the Holy Communion (Luke 22,18), to teach and to baptize (Mt. 28,19), to bind and to loose, to anoint and to heal (Mr. 6,13), etc.
When ordaining deacons (Acts 6,6), presbyters (Acts 14,23; Tit. 1,5) and bishops (2 Tim. 1,6) they never ordained women.
On the contrary, they instructed women to practice silence and godliness (1 Tim. 2,10-12)
Jesus Christ did not choose women among the twelve Apostles, but only men!
The bishops and clergy through the laying on of hands—a practice started by the apostles, and that this unbroken historical and physical link is an essential element of the true church (Acts 8:17, 1 Tim 4:14, Heb 6:2)
This was also present in the Old Testament.
God took Flesh and became man,and not woman.


In the Old Testament .......“The Lord appeared to Abraham… He
looked up and saw three men…”
(Genesis 18)
In the New Testament, God revealed Himself through Jesus Christ.

God is the Lord and has revealed Himself
to us; blessed is He who comes in the
Name of the Lord.” (Psalm 118:26-27)

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt
among us, full of grace and truth; we
have beheld His glory, glory as the only-
begotten Son of the Father. And from
His fullness have we all received grace
upon grace” (John 1:14-18)

Although Women are honoured, women are not allowed into the priesthood.
Christ himself honoured John the Baptist by praising him greatly and raising him higher than the Old Testament prophets and men of his time ( Matt 11:7 14; Luke 7: 24 28).
The Church honours the Saints, just as the Apostle Paul mentions men and women of the Old Testament and refers to their achievements and praises them greatly (Heb 11:4 38).
Holy Revelation, "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle" (2 Thess 2: 15).
Christ clearly chose those whom He willed (Mark 3, 13 – 14; John 6 :70).
He did so in conjunction with the Paraclete and God the Father (Acts 1 : 2) after intense prayer (Luke 6 : 12).
Male priests became intimately associated with the mission of Jesus Christ as the Incarnate Logos (Mark 16 : 14 – 15).
The Apostles also prayed before selecting and appointing their assistants (1 Timothy 3 : 1 – 13 ; 2 Timothy 1: 6).
Do times change?
Yes!
Does God change?
No.

Read more on the ~Role of Women....

IX
helen

Thank You, Helen.

First, the translation you use contains the word "churches".

I'm almost certain the words the translator of this version believes to be "church" or "minister" may have meant something else back in the day.

Probably best to allow someone that speaks Hebrew to translate from the original text and give us the literal meaning.
Why should we assume the translation is precise and correct?

I haven't read the entire thread, so I don't know if anyone has pointed it out, but saying a woman cannot minister is PURELY a misinterpretation of the scriptures. In fact, there were several women mentioned in the New Testament who shared the good news alongside the disciples. Phoebe for one...

Romans 16:1
[ Paul's Commendation of Phoebe ] I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church in Cenchreae.

Romans 16:2
I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been a great help to many people, including me.

Our Ministry has 4 women in it, so I've studied this before. I'm drawing a blank right now, but there ARE more...

reply to post by ReginaAdonnaAaron


It's not referring to ministration, but to leadership.
The Pastorate.