Where in the bible does it say that women cant be ministers?

reply to post by saint4God


Not every passage of Scripture refers directly to the one above it.

Isa 28:10 "here a little, and there a little"

what? why?
Mat 11:25 At that time Yahshua answered and said, I thank thee, O Father heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

www.yahweh.com

Originally posted by supermaltese
Not every passage of Scripture refers directly to the one above it.

Isa 28:10 "here a little, and there a little"

what? why?

I did not:

1.) Quote part of a verse
2.) Quote only one verse, I cross-references with multiple verses
3.) Quote only one person. I quoted Christ, Paul and Genesis
4.) Utilize a quote that is not topically related or relevant
5.) Fail to give proper explanation, context, and application of the quote

If I was unclear, ask your question.



[edit on 14-2-2008 by saint4God]

reply to post by kaferwerks


I didn't see anyone connect this thread topic to Religious Conspiracies. So I will. When the Roman Catholic Church became the world ruling religion, they indoctrinated everyone who would bow down into a form of being Roman Catholic. Part of this indoctination was/is to believe in the Queen of Heaven. Now, since not all people are comfortable with believing in a female deity there required subversion. Hence the eucharist where the priest recognizes the metamorphosis of the Queen of Heaven (the Lily) into the Man, Jesus or any deity not specifically Yahweh (remember a passage but can't quote where a prophet searched the religious scroll and found every god but no mention of Yahweh. ((cf. www.jesus-is-lord.com...)) After this they could allow people to worship the Queen of Heaven as Jesus. Paganism Baptized!

The Roman Catholic Church is the only organization today which meets all the Bible criteria for Babylon the Great (or the Great Whore)...so who is the daughters of the whore? does anyone know?

www.yahweh.com

Originally posted by sir_chancealot

Maybe MOMMY should learn (and teach to her daughters) not to breed with thugs, bad boys, and males who won't stick around to raise children.

Oh, but let's not hold women accountable for their actions! Why, women should have ALL the rights as "equal" citizens, but NONE of the responsibilities.

hold up a second bud!!!
in the bible.....reckon just how many women were stoned to death in the history of this world for adultery....
where's the men??? how many men in the bible were stoned for adultery? or, were all these women lesbians??
one judge was kind of caught in the act, the women....who was to have susposed to have been his daughter in law, but well.....the judge interferred with it, well, she kind of impersonated a prostitute, and well, he bit at her sales pitch, when she got pregnant, well.....word spread like wild fire, she had been unfaithful to her betrothed-who was never gonna marry her anyways- and well she was brought before this judge. and well, there was one little thing that stood in the way of her conviction, she swiped the judge's staff...and presented it before the court...
oooops, our bad, all charges dropped!!
it seems that throughout history, it's been the men who've managed to evade responsibility. fall out of love with you wife, no problem, just leave her.....didn't want kids to begin with...no problem...just leave them to!! you can remarry...
for most of the women in jesus's day...they could not divorce...the man could but they couldn't! when jesus explained to the deciples about adultery, divorce and well, laid part of that responsiblity on the man who leaves his wife...
well, the first thing out of peter's mouth was...
oh, it's better not to marry then.

the mom's are trying to take responsibility for the kids they produce...they are there, in the home, trying to raise them...plus many are working trying to come up with the money that's needed to. and, well, look at all the men who gripe and complain....they don't want to pay child support! and they'll come up with 150 thousand reasons why they shouldn't have to.
who's evading the responsiblity?

hey, I know, somewhere amongst the posts, I read that the women shouldn't be teaching the boys after the age of three.....
since, we aren't qualified to teach these youngsters, well, I guess we should just appoint their dads for that role! the women can take whatever girls, and the men can raise the boys...
how many men want that responsibility? my husband obviously didn't, he was gone for most of their childhood, hiding out at friends' house till he knew they were asleep...then he'd come home!

another thing......with the oh my god, women can leave the marriage now bit...
okay, you got a man and a women married....he doesn't want to break up the marriage, but well, he's spending half the time getting drunk and then well, he gets violent. has a tendancy to beat the heck out of her...
do you really expect that she's gonna stay?
I've seen where women have been advised to stay by religious men....and pray that God will change his heart.
okay....tell me this.
after 9/11, why didn't we just pray that God would change the hearts of the terrorists rather than bombing and taking over two countries??
do we expect more faith from our women than we do our men maybe?
are we expecting them to be just a tad more responsible?
a little more obedient to god's word than men are?

In the Bible the idea that women were to be submissive to men was made into law by some king who summoned his wife "to show off her beauty" for his guest at a party. she didn't obey, he got ticked and made it a law that every women in the kingdom should be submissive and obedient to their husband, that's how it became a law! A law that a man made up.
That's what happens when the gov't and the religion walk hand in hand....the laws of man become the doctrines of the church, regardless of where they came from. once imbedded in the doctrine....it's very tough to get out, since well, to say it's wrong is blashphemy against the word!

reply to post by supermaltese


Great book!
Written in 1853, it STILL has beaucoups of information!

reply to post by sir_chancealot


So while children of single mothers may have a higher crime rate lets look at the reasons for this to possibly be the case

1. no strong male role model...even in a divorced family the father can be an active and integral part of the equation, in the case of a totally absent father an uncle, grandfather, or mentor can help fill some of this gap. I think that especially in boys having a good strong male role model is of the utmost importance, it doesnt have to be dad, but one needs to be provided before the kid goes out and picks their own.

2. single mothers have to work more hours in order to provide the basics to their children, Women still make less money for the same job as men.
that means more time left to the childs own devices, more time spent in the care of school or a babysitter who doesnt have the investment of a parent in the long term success of the child.

3. feelings of abandonment, lacking sense of self worth and judgment, In a divorce while the father stays an integral part of the equation many of these issues are not as prevelant.

Is it always the mothers fault the father is absent in your mind?
does every father make the effort to be an active and supportive part of the childs life both emotionally and financially?
can the parents get over their own crap and co-parent like adults?

it is such a hugely more complicated issue than simply single mothers cant teach their kids to stay out of trouble!

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Yknot
The Black family of America during Slavery AND since the late 70's.
(Bill Cosby notwithstanding)

Which you're saying is matriarchal in nature?

YES, in case you haven't taken a good look lately.

Is this the reasons for broken homes?

Again, YES. Most men will not stay too long where they are not allowed to be a leader of the family. They will eventually leave or be forced away. Of course, it is a proven fact (STUDY after STUDY) that most children of 1 parent families grow up with one hand tied behind their back figuratively speaking, , compared to their counterparts with 2 parents in the home.

How is matriarchy related to lack of a functional urban education system?

Matriarchy has nothing to do with the public education system in this country; though 2 parents will usually be able to allocate more time between themselves than one to help insure said system stays within acceptable standards and performance.


Drugs?
Crack Cocaine, for instance, was provided and sold ONLY to people of color for nearly 20 years...Only in the last few years has it been allowed to be sold and used outside of that community in any sizable amount.

Alcohol?
Still can find 3 or more liquor stores within a one block area ONLY IN THIS GROUPS neighborhoods, ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, for at least 40 years. I will also guarantee you that only 1% of those poison peddling operations, if that, are owned by these people.

Poverty?
See all the above, and below, as a START......Again, those groups of the population that have a strong male presence in the family structure stand a MUCH greater chance of rising above the poverty line (and staying above it), than families with a weak or nonexistent male presence.

How is the African-American population different to the
impoverished Italian, Polish, and/or Irish populations in the early 1900's
when they were given their fresh start?

Americans of color had their "fresh start" finally legislated into law in the mid-60's after 100 years of "freedom", and had most of THOSE rescinded within 20 years by/during the reagan administrations day's of "fear mongering" among the citizens of this country.

A 20 year "fresh start"....

Please explain, you said you have proof, not opinion and speculation.

SEE ABOVE.
Please, let's stay on track. I believe this thread is about women in the position of authority in the church.

[edit on 15-2-2008 by Yknot]

I still don't understand why, despite evidence to the contrary, anyone believes that women should be banned from taking holy orders. Nothing I have seen on this thread defeats the evidence, and my own experience, that women priests are just as capable as male ones and fill a gap in a church's ministry that has been around for some time.

It has been shown that female priests are as good as male ones, so why do some still insist on refusing to ordane them?

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned...Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression...For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they that received abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ [Romans 5:12-17]."

so much for the idea that sin entered the world through just eve!!!



"“It is better that the words of the Law should be burned than that they should be given to a woman” (jSot. 3.4; 19a).

"If a man gives his daughter a knowledge of the Law, it is as though he taught her lechery” (bSot. 4.3). "

In ancient Jewish tradition, the women had very little religious obligation.....and well, it was forbidden that they be taught the torah. The fathers were to teach their sons the torah, the mothers were to teach their daughters just those parts that pertained to them...ya know, how could a women cook a great kosher meal on the festivals, unless she was taught what was allowed and what wasn't, right?

The authority of the man over women was claimed to have come from God, and the Torah was the holy word of God, given to man. Maybe they didn't want the subservient to be able to read those words for themselves and to figure out that well, that authority was highly questionable at best?
better to keep them ignorant to the spiritual truths and tell them only what they needed to know! But, how would keeping half of society's population subservient to the other half be beneficial to for those who were coming up with rules? Well, let's see.....God ordained that the Jews would be guided by Judges to begin with. And, there was even a women Judge! But, well.....the Jews decided that the Judges weren't good enough, and wanted a King, like all the other nations had....and God relented and gave them a king. So, now, the whole nation was subservient to a king. The wanted slaves....so many were also subservient to their masters. and well, they also had various others who held positions of power that they found themselves subservient to. Gee, you'd think that with all the time the people spent being subservient to all these people, well, they would have a hard time finding time to be subservient to God....much like in today's world where finding time to pay God a little time through the week is difficult. So, we have a kind of heirarchy, starting with a King and Priests, who appoint people to handle the various territories and areas of governorship...then the masters or in today's world bosses, then the king of the house...the husband, then the wife, then the children.....
notice that all but one person is subservient to another man? But, hey, most also get a good bribe to entice them....they get to be master over another. with the wife and children at the bottom of the chain.
But, how do you condition a person to give up their freedoms and allow another to rule them? Well, you start the process when they are children. The man is the ruler of the house, the mother is inferior and worthy of subjugation....some are worthy to rule, some are worthy to be ruled....and it is that invisible force we call God that decides such things, so if you are to be ruled by a master, don't take it up with the earthly powers, talk to God!!!
He's the one that set up this design, right?? but wait a minute, you're a slave, or your a woman...we aren't to allow you to learn to read the sacred words...so you're just have to take our word for it!!! It's there believe me...now get back to work!

But, as I pointed out before....God didn't set up this system....he appointed Judges that were to settle the everyday disputes between the people...and Priests to hear his words and relay them to the people...all the people, the men, the women, and the slaves. It was the people who wanted the kings, the governors ect....God just gave them what they wanted, knowing all the time it was a really bad idea.
the curses that came after the fall was not curses at all...they were consequences of the actions that adam and eve took. They decided to partake of the knowledge of good and evil before they had gained the wisdom necessary to really discern between the two or understand the whole picture. Thus, whatever their judgements were as far as what was good, or evil, or strong, or weak, or whatever, was flawed because of the lack of wisdom. They decided that the women was weaker, and therefore worthy of domination, they decided others amoung the men were also, and it was they who decided that their should be an early government led by a king, ruling all.....their judgements were made without wisdom, God knew it was a dumb idea, but allowed it anyways, since well, experience is one of the best teachers there are!

seems to me, the way back to the garden wouldn't be to keep running by these faulty judgements made long ago without the wisdom, or experience that the time we've spent on this planet since then has given us.
Jesus said that his sheep would hear his voice, and only him will they obey....not the kings, not the governors, not the priests, and not the husbands...but his!!!

Originally posted by dawnstar
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned...Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression...For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they that received abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ [Romans 5:12-17]."

so much for the idea that sin entered the world through just eve!!!

Not only that but Jesus Christ, the one man of the world who was ever without sin was not conceived by a man, but of a woman and God. As the gospels tell, the virgin Mary was conceived by the Holy Spirit. The lineage from David was still there, but the birth of the perfect man game from God the Father.

If a woman is called by God to teach, who are we to override God saying she is not qualified? This is reminiscent of saying Moses is not good enough to teach the law because he was a poor speaker. Is our judgement greater than God's? I'm not sure I'd want to be around to see that cage-match. It is a direct threat to God's sovereignty to say what He cannot do.

[edit on 15-2-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by blackthorne
even though i do believe in god and go to church, i think for myself. the bible was written by MEN! really, how do we KNOW that it was eve that bit the apple? who saw it? who maybe adam bit the aple and blamed eve? after all, if peter can deny christ three times before the cock crows, could not adam place the blame on eve? god asked 'who partook of the tree?" would not an all knowing god already know? so why ask?

remember, history is written by the victors. men WERE in control then. almost every thing was written by men. no matter what, we are mortal and WILL place our biases into eny thing we create.

just some thoughts. have a good day!

You KNOW more than me. I don't KNOW that it was an APPLE that Eve ate. What verse did you get that from? In all the translations that I have read: KJV, RSV, NASB, NIV, Reina-Valera (Spanish), and Luther Bibel (German) it is referred to as a fruit without specifying the type.

Gods Word is very clear on this subject in various verses, but one must read it in its context as well as crossed referenced with other scriptures for clearer understanding, never leaving an interpretation to our own opinion or presumption of assuming a spirit force with from with-in is revealing a true interpretation of any verse or subject outside of a through study of the scripture teaching in question. Who better to interpret Gods own Word than Himself. As the scripture teach, lean not on your own understanding. Why? because the heart is desperately wicked and who can know it. Jer. 17:9. In other words it will lie and deceive our own selves. When it comes to matters of eternal life or eternal punishment it would always be advisable to let God be true and every man a liar. Romans 3:4 Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:“ That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged.” In other words make sure what you believe is the truth. 2 Peter 2:1-3 (New King James Version)

2 Peter 2 Destructive Doctrines
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does[a] not slumber. So the deceptive word many have come to accept which is not in scripture is... Oh I think it's Ok for a women to preach. But as seen in 1 Timothy we learn...

1 Timothy 2:8-14 (New King James Version) Men and Women in the Church

8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; 9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

Now before everyone who does not like what they just read and seeks to cast off these verses, remember Gods word also teaches...

Revelation 22:18-19 (New King James Version)

A Warning
18 For[a] I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away[c] his part from the Book[d] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

If a person desires to simply say I don't believe that, then they are basically tearing Gods word out of the bible and, well, you just read the warning. If a person seeks to treat the Gods Word in that manner, then he might as well as throw the whole bible away and make up your own rules. Thus we have the modern day church and the 20 thousand religions around the world. If there is only one God, it would be wise to desire the one true God of scripture and forget supporting a religion from the ideas of man. We must remember God is also a jealous God and he will share his glory with no one. So beware.

2 Timothy 3:16-4:4 (New King James Version)

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

To Be Continued...

CONTINUED...

Well it was to be continued, but I did a go back and lost the last 4000 words I just typed. Time does not allow me to redo tonight. I'll be back... to continue with what the Timothy verses do and do not say.

In the mean time, here are a couple of links you may want to look up some of your other questions you may have. Great studies here.

monergism.com...
opc.org... (especially study the 400 year old reformation confessions of faith and look for the Q & A link)

PS. VOTE FOR RON PAUL in 2008 for liberty and freedom to continue to worship the one true God without the looming future of religious oppression and our neighbors financial destruction.

TO BE CONTINUED...

reply to post by Rumrunner


no dear you got it wrong she did know every thing

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which Jehovah God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat:
Gen 3:3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

reply to post by kaferwerks



hello

Firstly it depends on your definition of "minister" if you mean leader

then read Timothy, here is the criteria for the "elder" or "overseer" which the word for Bishop is used here

1 Timothy 3:2

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach.

As you see its for a Man not a woman.

Not to say that women have and are being used (probabbly) as prophets carerers and gospel sharers. Personally i do not belive inthe "church" as it is today in denominations so when Paul in his letters says that women should be silent in church i belive it is at bible study, the church represents the belivers.

david

Originally posted by dizziedame
You have stepped in a hornets nest in case you didn't realize it. Good luck to you Jedi.

Dizzie, don't take it so hard. woman are good for other things. they make great leaders and do wonders in the workplace controlling men. Keeping men in check. but I apologize if you think I was being mean or anything. I just don't think God wanted woman to do this job. why would god want females to work so hard preaching? when they already do enough by giving birth? gives man something to do.

Just wanted to reply that Paul was the one who said women should be silent. These words were not Jesus' words. I believe Paul perverted the truth of Jesus to gain power. Wasn't Peter the one who Jesus gave the Keys of Heaven to(who knew personally Jesus and ministered with him) in the New Testament? I believe Peter is rolling over and over in his grave while Christianity goes insane. He's got to be dizzy by now.

Originally posted by jedimiller
true. and that's because woman messed everything up for us. eating the apple. it's not that woman aren't smart, but they are too passionate and take things to heart. this does not make them appropiate to be pastors. because they would focus on personal beliefs and less on the bible. try letting a woman speak for 3 hours and you'd know what I mean.


Sorry girls. I love you!

Try telling that to your mother! Then let her give you a close shave with a straight razor! and of course you totally disregard the service of Mary in the church...but I disgress.The problem with some fundamentalist is that they take literally the word of the Bible, which in some cases was written by some guy chewing peyote!

[edit on 18-2-2008 by realmatrix]

So why do women make such good priests? Surely if the scripture is correct, female priests should be rubbish and have a negative effect on their ministry.