The government lied to us...and they should have

Originally posted by TXMACHINEGUNDLR
Well, I have to agree with Johnny Utah on this. I think that the governemnt should be able to keep secrets. I also dont think reporters should be allowed near a war zone, and with the exception of risking lives on US soil, should be able to create new weapon systems to help us win future conflicts. If we can warp space and time, and kill a leader of a enemy before he is born AWESOME. I dont have to know the how or why of everything......Just make me sleep safe at night, and keep my bank account fat. Sudan, NK, Iran, ect ect.......Better them than us.

So, you will gladly trade liberty for security?
"kill a leader of a enemy before he is born AWESOME" What if someone came along and killed your unborn child, claiming that he or she was going to be a troublesome person in the future? Would you be OK with that?

Hi Johnny_Utah, no offence, but would you still ask the same question, and would you still think they did the right thing,
if your own mother or father or your wife or your children where on board of that plane?
And fantasizing that they where, do you really don’t want to know
what those over 100 people saw?
what those two missile-like objects where?
and if it where really missiles,
who fired them?
and for what possible reason?

fantasy about my family on the plane? fantasy? wow...I guess I look at the wrong websites when I'm not here.

But would i still ask the same question...I don't know. Because I haven't been through the situation does that mean I am not allowed to have an opinnion? Have you ever made a car?
(I'm guessing no)
So since you haven't ever made one, does that mean you have no right to complain about how it was put together? You have no right to say or believe it could have been better this way? They are different I understand, but similar in the aspect of holding a view that you have experience with in the entirety of the picture.

So, if i had lost a family member on the plane should the government have taken a different course...No.
I am trying to look at this from an outside and objective point of view. My reason from bringing this up was to get away from the emotion and look at the idea maybe they did the right thing.

It didn't happen again (9-11 was not the same thing!). There was no disruption in the economy, not even a hick-up.

Originally posted by Shedman

Originally posted by TXMACHINEGUNDLR
Well, I have to agree with Johnny Utah on this. I think that the governemnt should be able to keep secrets. I also dont think reporters should be allowed near a war zone, and with the exception of risking lives on US soil, should be able to create new weapon systems to help us win future conflicts. If we can warp space and time, and kill a leader of a enemy before he is born AWESOME. I dont have to know the how or why of everything......Just make me sleep safe at night, and keep my bank account fat. Sudan, NK, Iran, ect ect.......Better them than us.

So, you will gladly trade liberty for security?
"kill a leader of a enemy before he is born AWESOME" What if someone came along and killed your unborn child, claiming that he or she was going to be a troublesome person in the future? Would you be OK with that?

Huh? Who is this "someone?"
You mean terrorists or rouge nations? is that a "someone?"
I'm confused. Are you equating the United States with terrorists, or are you saying the terrorists are the good ones and the United States are the true terrorists?
And I am also wondering what "liberties" have you lost? My life is pretty much the same way it was before 9-11...I smoke too many cigarettes, I still hate my ex-wife....
Sure i may have to take my shoes off at the airport now, but who cares?
I don't see black helicopter flying all over the place. People can protest on the streets like before...we can all voice our opinions right here...
So what liberties have YOU really lost?

reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_


I'd rather not live in ignorance. If we just sit back and assume the government knows whats best for us and don't question, we will end up with no freedoms. We, as American citizens are responsible for policing the government to ensure proper checks and balances.

Eternal vigilance is the price of Liberty.

reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_

The problem with liars is that once they lie to you, you can never trust anything that they say again. Governments have to be held accountable to the people that elect them. If, and I know that this is a big IF, the navy accidentally shot down the plane, wouldn't telling the truth about it, be better in the long run. Someone in the navy would have to modify procedures, so that it wouldn't happen again. Maybe they did anyhow. However, without the public pressure to force the issue, it might not happen, or be as timely. After all, why not just lie again if it happens again?
That said, there are legitimate reasons for the government to cover-up some things, certainly military secrets, etc. However, IMO, this event was not one of those legitimate times.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_

 

The problem with liars is that once they lie to you, you can never trust anything that they say again. Governments have to be held accountable to the people that elect them. If, and I know that this is a big IF, the navy accidentally shot down the plane, wouldn't telling the truth about it, be better in the long run. Someone in the navy would have to modify procedures, so that it wouldn't happen again. Maybe they did anyhow. However, without the public pressure to force the issue, it might not happen, or be as timely. After all, why not just lie again if it happens again?
That said, there are legitimate reasons for the government to cover-up some things, certainly military secrets, etc. However, IMO, this event was not one of those legitimate times.

I underatand what you are saying about liars but...who hasn't told a lie? Is there a little section of the world where lie-less people live? I bet it is a miserable place.
Let's say the navy shot the plane down.
You think the Navy would just sit back and say, "wow, we got away with that one!" and not do anything to figure out what happned ?
Public pressure doesn't always create results...look at area 51. How many people have been trying to find out aboutthat place.
You agree there should be some military secrets. The Navy was running classified exercises in the area the night the plane went down. So if it was classified, couldn't it be, out of the sake of national security we think the plane just puffed into flames?
Don't get me wrong, i am not saying that is the case. Just like you said "if"

Originally posted by jfj123
reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_

 

I'd rather not live in ignorance. If we just sit back and assume the government knows whats best for us and don't question, we will end up with no freedoms. We, as American citizens are responsible for policing the government to ensure proper checks and balances.

Eternal vigilance is the price of Liberty.

Questioning is wonderful...even a healthy exercise for the mind. but when nothing is believed and there is conspiracy behind every corner it turns into...paranoia.

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_

Huh? Who is this "someone?"
You mean terrorists or rouge nations? is that a "someone?"
I'm confused. Are you equating the United States with terrorists, or are you saying the terrorists are the good ones and the United States are the true terrorists?
And I am also wondering what "liberties" have you lost? My life is pretty much the same way it was before 9-11...I smoke too many cigarettes, I still hate my ex-wife....
Sure i may have to take my shoes off at the airport now, but who cares?
I don't see black helicopter flying all over the place. People can protest on the streets like before...we can all voice our opinions right here...
So what liberties have YOU really lost?

If you read Mr. Machinegun's original post he was getting all excited about being able to go back in time and kill a terrorist leader before he was born. My point was that this might not be a great idea.
What liberties have we lost? How about due process if I get arrested and accused of being a terrorist. Right now I can be declared a terrorist, thrown in jail without access to an attorney, without being charged with any crime and not be granted a speedy trial. I have no rights anymore as soon as I'm declared a "terrorist" for ANY reason. We have also lost Posse Comitatus.
The Constitution is being systematically disassembled through phony bills like the Patriot Act and executive orders. All the Government has to do is to declare martial law and they can do pretty much whatever they please. They can jail whomever they want for whatever reason they want, and there is nothing we can do about it.
Our liberty will be lost because we sold it for some false security. You will do what the government tells you to do or else.
Maybe you're perfectly fine with this concept of fascism, but it makes me real nervous.

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_

Questioning is wonderful...even a healthy exercise for the mind. but when nothing is believed and there is conspiracy behind every corner it turns into...paranoia.

"Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean there aren't people out to get me".
Questioning is only half the process, getting the real answers is the hard part. And who says there is a conspiracy behind every corner? I don't believe anything until I do a lot of research on it. I wanted to disprove the collapse of the towers as a "conspiracy" to a friend of mine and found rather that the "official" version was full of holes.
If you ever hear yourself saying "It just couldn't happen in this country", know that you are stuck in a false reality. "It" can and does happen here far more than you know.

Anyone besides me see the irony here. Johnny defends lying but want us to believe he is being truthful.

reply to post by Shedman


You know you are right! Half of the people in my city have vanished! Shhhhhh! they are outside right now................please.

I don't agree with all the ways prosecution of terrorists or suspected terrorist are done. But to think there is mal intent in every action is not reasonable.
But to think there was some aim started long ago, to slowly chip away at our rights, is absurd too. If the illuminati is as much an influence as people say, why has it taken over 200 years to get to the tipping point? It was part of the plot? The first members wanted their great great grandchildren to rule and not themselves? that makes sense.

reply to post by whaaa

Good one. It reminds me of the following:

1.) Statement 2 below is FALSE.

2.) Statement 1 above is TRUE.

Originally posted by whaaa
Anyone besides me see the irony here. Johnny defends lying but want us to believe he is being truthful.

huh? I don't know that I defended lying outright...did i say that, because i would love to see where!

Now I am sure the people who have denounced me and the cover-up of certain things are as truthful as George Washington...but some (not a whole lot here) understand it is not always in a country's (meaning the People's) best intrest to do so.

reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_


Why exactly do you believe that it was a good idea for the government to cover up the Flight 800 disaster? Feel free to provide multiple scenarios.

reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_
The best intrest of democracy is the people's ability to be involved in it. The first time a person elected a representative of this country covered up something they impeded the ability of the population to be involved.

Our biggest problem right now is the idea politicians decide we need leaders to run our country, Democracy was built to be an extension of the people and their wishes for govt., not to be paraded around by it. Politicians should all be followers, people picked randomly throughout the population to do their country a service. Not people determined to achieve power and make my decisions for me.

All representatives should be required to involve the people on all decisions before making judgments. This can't be done if they're allowed to cover up things THEY decide isn't important. Naive thinking like this is why they have gotten away with it for so long!

Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_

 

Why exactly do you believe that it was a good idea for the government to cover up the Flight 800 disaster? Feel free to provide multiple scenarios.

Unwarrented panic, to start.
economic instability, which rides on the back of the panic, since there would be a fear of flying.
An emboldening or motivating tool for those who did it.
it is never good to allow an enemy a moral boost.

Also the cause of cover-ups and conspiracies are exactly the same and for this reason they should be viewed as directly the same. They both stem from the person's involved believe they know better than the general population. This is an unacceptable practice in today's govt.! The assumption we live in a democracy alienates your views completely. Just the way our govt. was intended to be controlled by the people negates your argument completely, it holds absolutely no argument in the country we live in!!

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_

You know you are right! Half of the people in my city have vanished! Shhhhhh! they are outside right now................please.

I don't agree with all the ways prosecution of terrorists or suspected terrorist are done. But to think there is mal intent in every action is not reasonable.
But to think there was some aim started long ago, to slowly chip away at our rights, is absurd too. If the illuminati is as much an influence as people say, why has it taken over 200 years to get to the tipping point? It was part of the plot? The first members wanted their great great grandchildren to rule and not themselves? that makes sense.

Once again, you need to do your homework. None of this makes any sense until you can put it into perspective.
You have to know the history and motivations involved with this group to understand why they do what they do. These are immensely wealthy and powerful people who have been at this game for a long time. They can buy whatever obscurity they need to operate undetected. They can also buy whatever part of the government they choose to do their bidding. The also buy the best minds to help them achieve their goals.
These people want power above all else. One world government is their ultimate goal, with they themselves at the helm, of course. They use money and the control of resources to bring people under their control.
There is no energy crisis. This is a total farce perpetrated on us by these folks. The United States has huge reserves of oil and natural gas that is kept underground and out of reach. We could be energy independent any time we choose. Why aren't we? Because we couldn't be controlled and milked for exorbitant prices at the pump. We wouldn't need to go into Iraq and Afghanistan to control their strategic assets. People would not need the government as much.
These criminals are confident that they can pull all this crap off with no one the wiser. They are dead wrong, but it's going to be ugly convincing them of it.

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_


Unwarrented panic, to start.
economic instability, which rides on the back of the panic, since there would be a fear of flying.
An emboldening or motivating tool for those who did it.
it is never good to allow an enemy a moral boost.

So what? So a few people freak out. You don't know that there would be economic instability, that's just your fear talking. And what makes you think an enemy was involved?
I say tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may.

Originally posted by azblack
reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_

 

The best intrest of democracy is the people's ability to be involved in it. The first time a person elected a representative of this country covered up something they impeded the ability of the population to be involved.

Our biggest problem right now is the idea politicians decide we need leaders to run our country, Democracy was built to be an extension of the people and their wishes for govt., not to be paraded around by it. Politicians should all be followers, people picked randomly throughout the population to do their country a service. Not people determined to achieve power and make my decisions for me.

All representatives should be required to involve the people on all decisions before making judgments. This can't be done if they're allowed to cover up things THEY decide isn't important. Naive thinking like this is why they have gotten away with it for so long!

If they are there to represent us (which I agree with), we do so trustig they are the best person to do just that...represent. they are a proxy. They "SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO INVOLVE THE PEOPLE ON ALL DESCISIONS..." Are you kidding me?
Nothing would get done...nothing.
the point of a representative republic is that we are entrusting those we elect to make the hard choices. We are saying as a collective...you have our support...you are the person we trust the most to do what we think is right
naive is believing 1) we are a democracy 2) thinking it is possible to require the person we elect to consult on every issue and 3) thinking anything of any value could reached with having a country running in such a way
Seems what you want is mob rule