Why does there have to be a Creator, or anything created?

Ah, but the universe is not a straight line.

Originally posted by Illegal Alien
Hi all, I'm back.
Had to zoom off there for a while.

Here's my take on infinity and all that.

Thanks for all the comments, and the quote tips, by the way.

The way I understand infinity is this.....
My maths teacher at school told us that:

'Infinity is the point at which the two ends of a straight line meet.'

Therefore, as far as I can see, an infinite universe has neither a beginning or end.
The points at which the two ends of a straight line meet can be at any point along that straight line.
It's just up to the observer to choose where to make that point, in the here and now, there and then, or whatever.
Sort of an eternal now.

It's a simple explanation, but it has quietened my befuddled mind so far.
I.A.

Cheers all.

Not wishing to unquiet your befuddled mind, or anything, but you could run into a slight problem if the straight lne is on the surface of a circle

Sorry, just being slightly mischievous there

The universe was once a singularity.

Singularities can be made by a black hole.

Lets say, for arguement, we were the singularity of another universe, from a black hole.

That Universe, came from another black hole.

And that, from another

and another, and another.

Eventually, there must be a point of creation, as everything in the universe, absolutely everything, was created by something. Theres a cause and effect, nothing is ever just "is."

If these only were actually YOUR thoughts, i'd be glad to share some of mine on the subject.

LOL!!!!

Dammit! Dammit! Dammit!

I knew I'd come unstuck sooner or later. (Hmmm!, There appears to be a pattern emerging here).

Ah well, never mind. My mind is at it's most comfortable in it naturally befuddled state.

Hey, I've just finished reading that book 'The Gods of Eden'.
Got a bit lost during the history bits, what with all the dates, and names and stuff, but I did persevere, and what I did get was really interesting.
I'll have to check out that 'Conversations with God' too.
Sounds like it could do my head in a bit more.

Here's another book you could check out if you haven't already done so.
'The Book of Pleasure' by Austin Osman Spare.
It's a book about Magic/k, but the philosophical parts may be of interest in the context of this thread.
Stuff about Self, God, and duality.
Juicy!!!

WolfofWar is on the same track as Hawkings. Hard to argue with a mind like that!

Yeah!

Notice how I kept quiet on that one?

Still tryin'a work it out.

Could be that all of this stuff is contained within Self, as Austin Spare points out.
In his (and my) view as far as I understand, self contains all. Including all opposites, black holes, singularities, multiplicities etc...
Maybe it's just that we tend to see ourselves in terms of this body where our consciousness is centred, when in actuality we are all there is, infinite though it be, and our body is the seat of our perception whilst in our seperated fragmentary state.
I.e. our ACTUAL body is the multiverse.
In this scenario, self contains it's own opposite, and is free from the laws of duality.
They're my my straws, and I ain't letting go, if I can help it. (Gulp!)


[edit on 10-2-2008 by Illegal Alien]

Originally posted by WolfofWar


Eventually, there must be a point of creation, as everything in the universe, absolutely everything, was created by something. Theres a cause and effect, nothing is ever just "is."

Unfortunately your reasoning appears to contradict itself.

If everything has a cause and effect then wherever that creation point is it must have had a cause since (by your proposal) that creation point is an effect.... right?

The question then becomes... Who or what gave rise to that creation point, or in as others might put it 'Who created the creator?'

You can follow that reasoning into infinty (who created the creator of the creator of the creator, ad infinitum)

What we have then is an endless (infinite) cause and effect... and that makes even less sense than at some point something just BEING.

For something to be created it has to have a creator... Unless the creator just IS, that creator must have been created at some point too.

But then, if the creator just IS, why can't the universe just BE too... Why does it need a creator, or creation point?

WOW!!... I've just gone dizzy trying to get my head around THAT one..

Originally posted by Iseek
If these only were actually YOUR thoughts, i'd be glad to share some of mine on the subject.

Go right ahead

And when I say my thoughts I don't pretend that these concepts have never been thought of before or it's totally original thinking on my part. I read a lot, I watch a lot of SciFi, I discuss a multitude of things with friends and acquaintances, and I like to sit down sometimes and just think.

All those can influence your thinking and make you think that perhaps things are not as we think they are. ATS is a great place to discuss those things

Wow. What a great thread. Very good guys, I'm impressed.

So much so I have to add my 2 cents. Most of mine has been covered a little here and there. There are points in most of the threads that fit into my perceptions.

The main one being Human Perception. You must try to take Human Perception out of the equation. It's easier than you think.

You can't think of the universe as infinite. You have to think of it as this:

There is nothing. Nothing exists at all but little tiny atoms. Bunched together we see them as planets, stars and clouds of gas. Space is nothing. Try not to think of a huge universe. Think of it in that context.

Now, where did the gas and the planets come from? Something had to create them. If this supposed big bang spread the atoms out, where did they come from and what made them explode?

As said earlier time is a human measurement. Humans perceive things they can see, feel, and touch. We equate everything in this fashion.

If there is nothing out there except these bunches of atoms you can examine
where these atoms came from. We tend to look at them as a whole and try to explain their organization with this big explosion. If you look at the structure of an atom there is a center with with orbiting particles. Much like our solar system around the sun. More particles orbiting the center of the atom is the only thing that makes them different. Hydrogen gas has only 1 and lead has over 100 (I think, not sure the exact number).

To say that something created these atoms is simplifying. Let's look at this planet and the animals that inhabit it. Animals do adapt to their environment. This form of evolution has been confused and manipulated into a creation evolution. If all these animals grew into the complex beings we see today from nothing, it would still be happening and wouldn't just stop. In addition
animals would still be evolving into other animals. Why is there a million missing links between all these species that supposedly grew into another?

Male and female to me completely negates the theory of evolution as creation. Are we to believe that all the animals evolved into two seperate creatures that can and have to mate to make more. If we all evolved as they
say there would be more a-sexual creatures that could make offspring without a mate. As this would be needed to continue existing. If you don't have an opposite sex to mate with your species dies with you.

So something created life on this planet. And at the molecular level. No matter how deep we dig and what temperature and pressure that exists there we have found microscopic life (bacteria,etc.) Something infused life into this planet at the molecular level.

The only question for me is not is there a creator, but who or what, and why.

The part about an energy life form is an intriguing one. Are we energy life forms in our natural state and the creator created this for us to experience a physical existence? In order for us to do so we have to forget the previous form. Does birth bring us here with a fresh consciosnous? Are angels those who come here without going through birth and can remember our true form? Is that form the Holy Ghost? The physical form we are in now is the son and the father is the creator?

I don't know. That is what your faith has to decide.

Sorry so long but it is a profound discussion you all started and contributed very well to. My hats off to all of you. Very well done.

the problem simply sprouts out at the fact that the laws of the universe go against something just "being."

Chaos theory is all about cause and effect. Things create other things and make new things or destroy old things. New matter is pumped out to replace matter thats sucked out. A constant stasis of this universe goes against everything this universe is founded on.

And I can't say I have the answers of what created the universe, or any multiverses before it. If there is a creator, I can't even say I could begin to fathom what it is, and how it was created.

And the starting point is impossible to fathom, but just based on the observable universe now, and the way it works, it seems incredibly unlikely for it to just exist for infinity.

I believe there are gods governing this world to help us see through the unknown, But we are all gods in hiding. Hiding in physical Form. Let me ask you this. What were the gods before they became Gods?

Originally posted by WolfofWar


And the starting point is impossible to fathom, but just based on the observable universe now, and the way it works, it seems incredibly unlikely for it to just exist for infinity.

I agree that the starting point is impossible to fathom. I also agree that from the point of view of everyday observation cause and effect rules everything, and the concept of infinity seems ludicrous.

I'm just trying to imagine looking at the universe without the limitations that the way we have to interact with it imposes on us.

A couple of great posts from you & thanks for replying WolfofWar

I'd say, just for a fun little arguement, let me give you my theory.

The powers of ten rule our universe. Everything acts the same, whether your looking at an electron buzzing around or a planet buzzing around.

I saw we are a universe. Everything in us works at an atomic level like a universe. We were a singularity of nothing, then we grew and expanded, like a big bang. I'd have to bet, if we expanded far enough, we'd realize we're inside the atoms of a giant galactic space slug. And he? well he's in the atoms of a gigantic space worm.

Originally posted by Skepticalap20


Male and female to me completely negates the theory of evolution as creation.

... Actually, I'm no biologist and know very little about evolution... but I was always under the impression that the cocept of male and female developed as a way of diversifying the genepool?... Please, correct me if I'm wrong, anyone?

The part about an energy life form is an intriguing one. Are we energy life forms in our natural state and the creator created this for us to experience a physical existence? In order for us to do so we have to forget the previous form. Does birth bring us here with a fresh consciosnous? Are angels those who come here without going through birth and can remember our true form? Is that form the Holy Ghost? The physical form we are in now is the son and the father is the creator?

perhaps we are slivers of one universal consciousnes, as has been already mentioned.

From that point of view what we refer to as God, or the Creator could simply be a collective us... an us that's always existed. Who knows eh?

Dont care. MUST NOT THINK ABOUT THIS. MUST NOT. MUST NOT.

This is like my thread about the concept of infinity. You will never really know what happened in the "beginning" if there is one. The Genesis just doesn't make sense in my oppinion, the Big Bang is similar to the genesis. Where did god come from, where did the first ball of matter come from?

Originally posted by WolfofWar
I'd say, just for a fun little arguement, let me give you my theory.

The powers of ten rule our universe. Everything acts the same, whether your looking at an electron buzzing around or a planet buzzing around.

I saw we are a universe. Everything in us works at an atomic level like a universe. We were a singularity of nothing, then we grew and expanded, like a big bang. I'd have to bet, if we expanded far enough, we'd realize we're inside the atoms of a giant galactic space slug. And he? well he's in the atoms of a gigantic space worm.

How do you argue against THAT?

I suppose it's as likely as anything else. In an infinite universe?...who knows eh?

reply to post by die_another_day


I must admit, I almost regret starting the thread now. It's given me a spectacular headache, just trying to get my thoughts in some sort order when typing

Some of us may be confusing our spirit form with that of being a god. Spirit does not necessarily mean we are gods. More likely, it means we contain a God within us. That would be my interpretation of the Holy Spirit. We are all spirit forms with the potential to take on the God form spirit (Holy Spirit) given the right situation. That portion is up to the reader to find out for him/herself.

The point was that how would every animal that mutated into another animal, all split into a male and female match to procreate and make another of each type of creature. Before one creature mutated into another they mutated into an opposite sex first.

We're to believe that creatures needed to diversify their gene pool and mutated into an opposite sex. There both still from the same gene pool. Or did a bunch of single cell organisms mutate into complex cell structures separately?

And why isn't this still happening? Why is there a missing link between every supposed evolutionary change?

Animals adapt to their environment. That is evolution. But this can not explain how we got here.