The 2nd Coming of Christ

Originally posted by MurderCityDevil
reply to post by AshleyD

 

haha you said rapture

jesus doesnt come til after the tribulation so there for how can he come for the people who are to be raptured?

its silly to think you are being raptured when even the chosen ones arent getting raptured

If Rapture is post-Tribulation, of whom are the great armies composed which are dressed in white robes who accompany Him on white horses (Rev 19:14)? The event known as The Second Coming is described in Revelation 20 as a setting up of a physical kingdom on Earth...are you saying, then, that the text indicates the Rapture occurs on The Messiah's and His Armies' descent from the sky? . . kind of a low-orbit revolving door effect?

As well, Revelation 3:10 makes an interesting statement which I've heard represents a direct statement of the Rapture's pre-Trib eventuality: Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. Is this definitely the context of the verse?

How could I possibly know that?

[edit on 2/10/2008 by OptionToChoose]

Originally posted by banyan
what changed my mind was the hypocrisy of the majority of those professed believers and the lack of truth provided.

But will you really let either the hypocrisy or integrity of another decide the deeper needs of your own soul? This is not meant to preach, only asking that you consider your own thoughts worthy of Being in and of themselves...your own uniqueness to simply Be, unapproved by anyone but you.

I relate to what you said, it was this same type of hypocritical crowd that drove me bananas for years, and eventually to the point of actual atheism (although overdose intellectualism briefly toured me through the latter state). However, my life has followed a course which, in hindsight, has -- against all odds -- produced the most incredible patience as well as understandings of spiritual realities, at levels I never even imagined existed, prior. I now have a relationship with Whom I know as the Creator which transcends any other living (or otherwise) being's influence or opinion of it. It would be as if people were to voice their disapproval of your being with the person you love . . it has nothing to do with people.

If you once believed in God, it was because that belief gave you some sense of hope, some sense of purpose, chances are. Even if it was a result of your parents or grandparents, or whomever forcing you to church on Sunday, if you developed a peaceful relationship with an inner-voice, an inner-guide that you named God, I'm confident that it was because that choice made you feel better -- not worse -- about life and its challenges.

My point is that Truth is not affected by insincerity of others' professed beliefs revealed false. Truth is that which you live by, that which strengthens you and all that is dear under you when applied. I'm not saying you should dig out and dust off your bible; I'm saying that if you think there may be something to enrich your life in the deeper studies of that to which you have already been introduced, why hold back?

Hoping to add, not offend.

what the hell is this doing on ATS? wow...

here's my prediction... let's see who bites.

Jesus won't return for another 2000 years. When he does he's gonna be pissed and armed to the teeth to avoid a second crucifixition. Be prepared...

that is.. be prepared to kiss your bottom goodbye when he does come.

(file 13 for this thread please... it's not even a prophecy or prediction. It's somebody trying to spread their religion (which I happen to practice... so no bias here... just this doesn't belong on a C.T. website...)

theres two kinds of replies, here at ATS, when dealing with Theology:

1) the bandwagon reply: "Christianity is stupid and so are Christians, I hope the rapture happens so the world will be a better place" *oh so slick and funny*

and,

2) the genuine reply: "_insert genuine reply here_"

please try to do the numba tew, thx.

on the subject of the rapture, it has been my longstanding opinion that the rapture does not occur at all, and that the people have misinterpreted the text. the preachers may or may not have intentionally twisted the text to their own minds and ideas. but thats what i normally say.

the reason is the text. there are only a couple of references to a rapture, none by the name of rapture, the strongest one being the first resurrection in revelation upon which 144,000 male virgin jews, equally taken from the 12 tribes of Israel, are taken up to be with God or Jesus or become a part of the Divine Host or -whatever-. Now, we can take that literally, or take it symbolically, and figure out what this symbolically meant.

I've gone into it before, so im not going to do it again, but i will just say that I feel what people call the "rapture" is going to be much more limited in its' overall scope, that so few people will be taken that no one will really even notice.

The fact of the matter is, one million people, evenly distributed amongst the Earth right now, could all instantly vaporize and disappear, and no one would care/notice/write an article about it for the news. Because there was 5.5 Billion people amongst the Earth. That is, enough that one million people to it is equal to 1 in 1,000,000 in its' own right. So there'd be so few people taken is what I'm trying to say. I don't necessarily subscribe to this.

Or, the 144,000 is actually like 1.44 billion, 14.4 million, 144 million, etc. And this is the symbolic version, but its the one I feel has more truth to it. In this theory, you do have a rapture, but probably still quite small compared to what people are originally thinking. Way more are left behind than originally thought. Way more are left ... believers in Christ, left .. because they were not completely devoid of the works of Satan. So many of us have our hands in Satan's cookie jar that it isn't even funny. So there will be many, many Christians and Monotheists not taken during the first resurrection. After Armageddon and all that, there's a 2nd resurrection don't worry.

(And yes, I realize that "Christians not being taken in rapture" flies in the face of traditional teaching. Good thing it does..)

Just when you think you're finally dead and out of this hellish rat race, you get resurrected back into your flesh lolz. Way to add injury to insult. The ultimate way of letting the evil people know that they cannot escape God even in death. This will be an awesome day, IMHO. Both good and bad are resurrected during the 2nd time because all of humanity is raised and judged. Judgment Day. It is said some awaken to awesome bodies of light, while others, evildoers, awaken to decrepit, decayed, zombie like bodies. Yikes.. I hope i'm one of the male virgin jew boys. Crap, im already down on two of those requirements, heheh.

[edit on 2/10/2008 by runetang]

reply to post by AshleyD


You bring out some great points! The only thing I would add are these scriptures:

Romans 5:9
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

I Thessalonians 1:10
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

I Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

And as you stated in your post, this time of great tribulation preceding the return of Christ and the resurrection of the saints is also called the 'Time of Jacob's Trouble': "For thus says the Lord: 'We have heard a voice of trembling, Of fear, and not of peace. Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale? Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it." (Jeremiah 30:5-7).

[Jacob was the grandson of Abraham. God changed Jacob's name to Israel (Genesis 32:28). He had twelve sons and their families became known as the children of Israel.]

I don't know but I gotta say that we are all reading it wrong! See, what if the bible( as to the large amount of people that believe it did, like me) was changed from time to time by so-called guardians of some kind. So technology then settled in, and later on learning about different things too.

What if 2012 is a time where people make their stand, to be saved (die or perhaps continue to live on the "new" earth) or all die at once or who knows?

See this is why i think in the past, we had people who knew how to change the world from time to time. And those who did probably never knew it is working. And it somewhat does, we all don't see it but history does indeed repeat itself. And to this time, now in 2008 all we can do is enjoy ourselves before it's too late...

The 2nd coming, believe it or not, can be true...i believe he will come, but just like any ordinary man, i have doubts and what if he doesn't come? What if it's a believe thing and like above, 2012 can be a time where the population lessens and maybe Jesus Christ ends his 2,000 years on earth with wars, oppressions, horrors, and etc. See people never catch onto things but I believe we all have Jesus' characteristics...characteristics pass on from time to time just like your DNA, think about it!

What if we're moving onto a new time, like the time of Aquarius. Where man controls his fate (bearer of water and air) or whatever, as oppose to Pisces (Two fish representing a battle between two things or there's two of everything for example: Love and hate, past and present, etc.) ending it's 2,000 year mark...

I' not saying Jesus is a bad guy or whatever, but in this lifetime it IS better to be alive and fight off evil doings than to give up and die for a cause. I dunno but I surely can't wait for the time and I'm prepared for any actions I may have to do...cause in the long run, we're all dead anyways...

[edit on 10-2-2008 by adkchamp]

Originally posted by jdposey
You bring out some great points! The only thing I would add are these scriptures:

Romans 5:9
I Thessalonians 1:10
I Thessalonians 5:9

Yes, there are many, many more passages (several dozen in fact) relating to a pretribulation rapture in the Bible but to list them all would have been tedious! If you check out the links in the bottom of my previous comment, they explain everything. The articles are excellent and really should erase any doubt in a Christian's mind about the rapture. I also like the article that answers frequent criticisms about the pretribulation rapture because those were the exact same arguments I had used for years to argue the doctrine. It's interesting they answered them all for me in one clean sweep. Added to the fact that Satan seems to be working overtime to explain where everyone went. That leaves me to think even he knows it's coming and soon.

reply to post by jdposey


To further your position, the Jewish people, who are still looking for their Messiah, are calling this exact time "the time of Jacob's trouble". To me, this just furthers the indication that we are indeed in the last days.

Maybe we should all stop arguing about Pre-Post-Never, and all spend the time debating, and actually doing some good work.

I am really interested in the Gospel of Thomas lately.

The Gospel of Thomas is a New Testament-era apocryphon completely preserved in a papyrus Coptic manuscript discovered in 1945 at Nag Hammadi, Egypt. The book was bound in a method now called Coptic binding. It was written by a school of early Christians who claimed the Apostle Thomas as their founder and does not have a narrative framework, nor is it worked into any overt philosophical or rhetorical context. Unlike the four canonical gospels, which are well structured narrative accounts of the life of Jesus, Thomas is a "sayings Gospel" with short dialogues and sayings attributed to Jesus. The writer is credited in the incipit as "Didymus Judas Thomas". The words "Didymus" (Greek) and "Thomas" (Hebrew) both mean "twin" and the name Judas (or Jude) is a derivative of Judah.

I know some are against alternative canons that go against their own status quo, but I personally think to be truly Christian has nothing to with Saviors and Sins, but in His work to liberate the common man's spiritual beliefs and fought against corruption and idolatry. His healing acts would be considered 'socialized medicine' today.

To each their own, but hopefully we all can treat each other with Supreme Kindness.
DocMoreau

Originally posted by barmshadow84
Ok your right You don't have to just say you believe in Christ but that you DO HAVE TO ACCEPT CHRIST AS YOUR PERSONAL SAVIOR,
I HAVE.
Have YOU

No thanks, I'm fine, I prefer my Hedonistic ways. But your All Caps almost swayed me.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Starless night? Where does it say this? Regardless, when it is nighttime somewhere, it is broad daylight somewhere else. I have my suspicion (and suspicion only) that it seems the rapture would occur in the daylight hours for America and night time for the Eastern Hemipshere but it is only speculation on my part. America is a non entity according to the end times mentioned in the Bible so it would make sense it would occur while it would cause the most damage: when everyone is awake and moving around.

I agree with you...Here's/why.

Ive/had/a/dream/where/i/was/being/lifted/into/the/sky.

It/felt/unbelievable...I/felt/so/happy/and/i/knew/it/was/god.

I/couldnt/see/anyone/esle/with/me...I/just/remeber/being/really/high/up/but/not/afaid.

As/i/was/tumbling/upward/i/was/about/to/reach/to/the/edge/of/the/sky...
but/then/i/woke/up.

I/knew/what/i/felt/must/have/been/the/rapture.

This/all/took/place/during/the/day/like/you/mentioned/it/would.

What the heaven is this doing on ATS? Or was that "hell"? . . if "hell" I don't know, no longer deal in hellish concepts, at least not on purpose. . maybe it's here because religion as a control mechanism in the everyday life of the average citizen could very well be in line for the most destructive and deceptive conspiracy EVER award? If a thesis was prepared as to why the Hebrew/Greek bible texts aggravate some, would it not contain a lengthy list of who changed what, who added this and took that, it was written to control the masses, yada, yada, yada, ... and, really . . were you there when all that was done? Did you see or participate in these changes, or closely know someone who did? Admittedly, I myself have a tendency to trust what I consider to be reliable sources, yet even a reliable source is not conclusive proof of one side of a debate, whether my side or the opposing one.

And this is a conspiracy site, is it not? Maybe an equally daunting question is what is one doing in a thread on ATS which fails to promote one's own comfort and peace . . . Of course, if one of the Three Amigos decides that this kind of conspiracy theory should not be discussed here, that would carry greater weight. Someone posted as fact that an alleged-to-come event (rapture) would happen in a certain chronological order which I do not see the biblical texts prescribing, and I responded with questions the premise of which does not support the poster's comment. Would there have been a problem had the issue been, "Mercury is the second planet from the sun," and I replied with, "then why is it presented by the authorities as being the first planet?" If you're careful, you will realize that a post from me may simply be an ironing out of semantics. It is not now, nor ever will be (as I can presently foresee) my role to tell another what to believe. But if I notice objective curiosity about something I happen to know a bit about, I will likely respond.
***********************************
You see, it has been my longstanding opinion that the rapture may indeed be worth an intellectual look-at, considering the same book that promotes it is doing a bang-up job in describing the world we live in today. Bitterness and confusion do not alter the existence of this odd coincidence (odd because the bible is fake . . . isn't it? ). And if there was a book containing 2000-and-3000+ year-old documents which start talking about the end of the world as we know it, describe the kinds of horrors to be on the lookout for, and then it all starts happening as predicted, would I dare stand in the face of that and not even give it a look?

? ? ? ?

Why would I do that?

And since the people have misinterpreted the text, I'll be waiting with baited breath for the correct interpretation, so that all of this global madness may better be understood.

Originally posted by DocMoreau
Maybe we should all stop arguing about Pre-Post-Never, and all spend the time debating, and actually doing some good work.

I think a good understanding of the subject-matter is necessary to ensure a good debate. I would hate to be the one to attempt to officially divorce the bible's significance from the Apocrypha texts (me, I don't think it's possible), or even be the one to decide that one part of it all is true, and this part over here, well, that's not true, even though I have no more knowledge of what's really going on (or what the real-world future holds) any more than the next person.

I agree with you, and to be fair, I'm not promoting religion, as I hate religion. I do have an affinity for what is called God, and I believe that objective study of this Power may be smoothly integrated into rich scientific pursuit. I don't accept the science vs. God position, as neither alone makes much sense to me. For example, I find it short-sighted to foster something like the Big Bang kind of origin for the universe, but then go silent when asked where that came from . . . my experience is that folk get real humble when a demand for the Big Bang energy's source is made.

Why is that? Seems to me all logic as we presently understand it breaks down into dust the preceding moment of the Big Bang (or whatever form cosmic manifestation took).

I can has realizies too dat JESUS has coming soon, can is has repant now plz?
A nice way to spread your message would be starting with decent spelling, op.

reply to post by runetang

the reason is the text. there are only a couple of references to a rapture, none by the name of rapture, the strongest one being the first resurrection in revelation upon which 144,000 male virgin jews,

The strongest one I've seen is 1 Thess. 4:16, and one like it: 1 Corinthians 15:51. Interestingly, the apostle writes that we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye...comfort one another with these words, he advises.
More clarity may be needed for me to see how the 144,000 are the raptured believers spared from tribulation, as in Rev. 7:4 these 144K are "sealed" for God's protection on the earth, during the tribulation, according to the text.

When Jesus returns he'll be inside a flying saucer ... seriously

Originally posted by ThreeNF
When Jesus returns he'll be inside a flying saucer ... seriously

Now thats the best reply I have read yet!!

I totally agree Three...

I believe Joah Osborne says it best in her SONg One Of Us. There's strong evidence that if 2012 is going to be the basic returning time, or end of time as the case may be, then Jesus is already Here Now. Sure, too many people focus on the "Like a flash" statement, and "every eye will see him", but they ignore the returning being like a "Thief in the night" and "Like a sheep to the shearers".

I believe 2012 is the event, and thus, I personally know Jesus is already here on earth. He's living as one of you. It gives the brotherhood a whole new meaning. You might be sitting next to him on a bus ride. He might be the guy you cut ahead in line of. He maybe the guy you flip off because you're having a bad day. You should think about that next time before interacting with anyone else. Even if it isn't Jesus, as it is said, what they have done to the least of you they have done to me.

Jesus is already here on earth. His email is empty. No one wants to have anything to do with him. They can not get anything from him, so they percieve, so they just ignore. Its stuff like that that when the second stage of his second coming comes around (the glory), he comes with a broad swoard from his mouth. There will be no asskissing at that point as you'll already have slapped him on both sides of his face.

You can argue all day long about which interpretation is right or wrong what passage means what. Thats the problem its all highly subjective to what purpose or motivation the reader wants out of it. Face it no one has any clue when or if Jesus will ever return...The Book of Revelation was written by a man(John)...who was supposedly inspired my god(Jesus?)..........well so was the Koran.....and the Torah.......and on..and on

reply to post by ThreeNF


You mean an "imitation Jesus" will arrive in a UFO. A new age book mentioned in one of my previous comments mentions the arrival of this 'being' and describes it as being like "lightening flashing across the sky" and that everyone will see it. The Bible also describes Jesus second being like lightening flashing in the sky that everyone will witness.

The rapture is also distorted in the same book. It says Christians will disappear in the "twinkling of an eye" (again, the same terminology used in the Bible to describe the rapture). The book describes Christians as being a "virus infecting mother earth" so we will be "removed by aliens in order allow the rest of humanity to advance to the next phase of enlightenment and evolution."

But don't worry about us. According to the book you will be told we have simply reached our enlightenment and have gone "home," either to another planet or dimension. If children are taken in the rapture as some Christians suspect, then it would be hard saying everyone taken was "evil." Instead, it will sound like those who were taken will now be living in bliss.

All those "crazy Christian wackos" will be gone in an instant while the "good" Christians will be left behind with the rest of "tolerant" humanity who is "willing to accept the change." After this, the world will undergo a period of tribulation and transformation (same thing mentioned in the Bible) but to not be worried because this temporary transition is necessary to bring us to the new age.

Can anyone see where I'm going with this? It's nothing but a deception being created to explain where everyone will have gone. Again, it seems even Satan knows there is a pretribulation rapture coming and he's trying to take the credit. Sorry to sound like a nut to some of you but that's the way I'm seeing this.

[edit on 2/11/2008 by AshleyD]