Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'

Originally posted by frank64

to all the people discusing this the UK as a whole is of christian belief and will remain so, only if we stop the bleeding hearts in society trying to make the world a better place , it wont happen, islamic law and religon are too extreme in their application, and we of the christian world are too busy loving our neibhours to the extent we dont see the storm coming,if they want sharia law the go home and have sharia law , but that wont happen either again we are not allowed to deport them , well im sorry i say kick them all out all civil war will follow enoch powell was bang on"streets running with blood"

This is very hard to understand, you say your from the UK??? lol
I'm not sure I want to understand what I think I'm reading.

reply to post by CharlesMartel


What on earth has The Right To Bear Arms got to do with the possible imposition of Sharia Law

Oh, subjects?
Are you trying to imply that we are merely subjects of The Monarchy and have to do whatever we are instructed to by them?

I'm sorry, I really don't see the relevance to either point?

Start threads on "The Right To Bear Arms" and "The Role Of The British Monarchy" and i'll gladly contribute, otherwise please try to explain how your post relates to the OP.

reply to post by Mulberry


Yes, and they didn't recently give a woman jail time for allowing a child to name his Teddy Bear Mohammad. Nope, no religious based law there.

Oops, gotta go, a pink elephant just flew over my car and dropped a load.

reply to post by _Phoenix_


Are you a practicing Muslim? Do you follow the prayer requirements? If your daughter or son, if you have one or not, were to decide to convert to another faith, would that be alright with you? If they were to marry someone who was not a Muslim, would that be alright to you. Would you still welcome them into your home, and help them when you can as a good parent would?

reply to post by poet1b


What's this got to do with anything?

reply to post by _Phoenix_


Everything and more. Why do you ask instead of simply answering these easy questions?

reply to post by poet1b


Because your asking multiple personal questions that has nothing to do with the subject of an archbishop talking about sharia law that will never happen.

[edit on 10-2-2008 by _Phoenix_]

Muslims Don't want sharia Law.
icwales.icnetwork.co.uk...

More muslims don't want Sharia Law
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/10/nsharia510.xml




Like I said before most muslims don't even talk about sharia law, and if they do most don't even want it! There is nothing more to discuss because it is never going to happen!!






[edit on 10-2-2008 by _Phoenix_]

reply to post by _Phoenix_


Just as I thought. To a Westerner like me, these are not that personal of questions, especially when you are talking about what customs you follow, in accordance with what are in my opinion far too restrictive of practices. You have answered the question adequately for me. You clearly do not follow my beliefs in Freedom of religion and freedom of speech, and I seriously doubt that you respect my beliefs.

Do you think a person should respect the beliefs of another, when that person does not respect their beliefs?

Originally posted by poet1b
And you continue to be even more predictable. The question you asked inevitably would lead to this type of discussion.

I must admit that it really hasn't been my goal to surprise you. Given the medium of the internet, even if I did manage to surprise you, you would simply call that predictable to, thus rendering the effort of the exercise pointless. Rather my goal here is just to confront you on your BS.

SO, according to you, "There is no such thing as "western culture" buddy."

Really, then why are we talking about it? Perform an internet search and see what you get. A great many people are talking about this thing that you claim does not exist. How is that?

Same reason you can find thousands of websites about how reptilian overlords live in the hollow earth under an internal sun along with the last Nazis and the empire of Atlantis, and how they all cooperate to subtly manipulate the price of baking soda as part of their arcane plan of world domination.

In a shorter response: Because there is no shortage of dumb people.

You want exact definition for broad concepts, and only someone who doesn't have a clue what they are talking about would demand such a thing, as if you have the right. You might want to re-read the definition that you posted, because nowhere in your provided definition of culture does it state that beliefs have to be universal. Cultures mix, they don't have borders like nations, once again this seems to be beyond your grasp. Different cultures mix, and sometimes they create new cultures, and then often historians will try to define the different cultural influences that created the new identified culture. In todays modern world, many cultures tend to exist in most nations. At the same time, most nations tend to be dominated by one primary culture, with a broad mix of other cultures. Go take a class at some community college, or if you are one of these overly educated types, go visit another country, like Saudi Arabia, and see how willing they are to peacefully discuss religion with you, or if you are a Muslim, as I suspect, then I suggest Eastern Germany, or Idaho.

If you're going to type up stuff like this, please refrain from calling my post "rambling." Even though it appears you have extensive experience in the realm of long, meandering collections of half-jointed thoughts, it's my opinion that you're far better at making them than I.

Yes, I want a definition for the term that you used. You have thus far been unable to do so, and I remain firm in my belief that you yourself do not understand what "western culture" entails.

No, it doesn't have to be universal, but it does have to be definable. Now what's funny is that hte larger a cultural grouping you're using, the easier it should be to define. A culture is defined by the commonalities found in it, right? And the larger a group you're using, the fewer commonalities there will be. For instance, one could define Plains Indian culture rather quickly and concisely because they have a few common cultural traits. When you break it down to Cheyenne, Kiowa, or Lakota, the cultural definition takes more work because hte differences become greater. And then you can break it into specific bands of Lakota or whoever.

For instance your use of "Muslim culture." What is Muslim culture? It's more easily defined than "Western culture" and is, I figure, defined as a collection of the people who use the Koran as a holy text. You can then break it down further into this group that uses the Sunnah or the Hadith or both, or a group that recognizes Muslim saints or a historical emergence of the Mahdi or all this. Again as the sample size grows smaller, the cultural details grow more numerous. But hte overall culture, the "Muslim culture" remains extremely vague because of all the massive differences in the groups it includes.

By the way, please refrain from talking about how culture has no boundaries, if you're going to insist on defining a culture by its geographical placement - Western culture implies boundaries.

Yes, these things you mention, like plows, do reflect cultural influence. Ideals tend to be positive, and if you asked me to define Muslim culture, I would find other different positive things to say.

Really? Do regale me, then. And no, it reflects trade, not culture. For another example, look at the horse. Use of the horse as a tool of war or agriculture or companionship spread rapidly. But you'd have to be an idiot to argue it caused a unification of culture. The effect of the horse on Mongol culture was quite different from the effect it had on Celtic or Apache culture, or Imperial French culture even.

The reality is that Islam is a threat to not only Western Culture, but if you look around the globe, to all cultures it encounters. Your rambling responses only make you look like an idealist without a solid understanding of the world, or a propagandist whose only intent is to twist the concepts presented to make it appear that you have something to say. You have yet to make one legitimate statement to counter the facts that I have presented.

You have yet to present any facts. "Islam is a threat! Muslims are dangerous! East vs. West!" - those are opinions, not facts. How is Islam a threat to "the west" - and once again, where the hell is the border of "the west"? Gimme facts, gimme figures, tell me how the 2% of America's population that is Muslim is a threat to the 98% that aren't for instance.

The irony of you calling me a propagandist while you wriggle and squirm away from direct questions while yelling about the threat of a religion (And presumably every person in the world that believes in that religion) to an ill-defined geographical / cultural area seems to be lost on you.

The Western concept of separation of church and state, freedom of religion, balance of power, and numerous other western based beliefs are completely in opposition to the Muslim concept of religious based law.

Really? Truly? Visited America, the "bastion of the west" as I've heard it called, where the only issue with a religious law is if it's being pimped around by someone who's not a protestant fundamentalist? Ever been to Turkey, or Lebanon, or Bangladesh, Muslim-majority nations with no interest in religious law? How many Middle Eastern attempts to democratize have been quashed by interference from "the west" in fear that such movements would undercut profits?

This is the reality, and the aggressive actions of Muslims to push their beliefs on others is exactly what is creating the numerous conflicts that exist not only between the West and the Muslim world, but between the Muslim world and all other religions and cultures that they encounter.

You really don't know much about Islam, do you? Luckily you don't have to remain ignorant - we have several Muslim posters here on ATS who if you approached them with an honest desire to learn, might just agree to fill you in. There's also numerous forums and websites dedicated to the religion, its aspects, educating others about it, facts vs. fictions, so on and so forth. I've found that the WhyIslam forum is a pretty handy resource if you're curious about the outlooks and opinions of day-to-day Muslims from many parts of the world.

Originally posted by poet1b
I can't point my finger at all the examples the clearly demonstrate Muslim aggression, because I would have to be able to point my finger in all directions at once, so wide spread is the abuse that Muslims constantly rain down upon the world.

Oh of course. I can totally see how a vast amount of this occurring would make it difficult to cite examples of it happening. Or you could just be full of it. Logic tells me...

The first blows in this conflict were made Long ago. The problem is that the Muslim world insists on perpetuating conflict. The Muslim world preaches peace on one side, while calling for war on the other. The only real question is,

What will it take to end Muslim aggression?

You know, I think I might be generous in labeling you as ignorant. You come across as "just plain stupid" with this post. What conflict? When precisely? By whom? What conflicts are being perpetuated by Muslims? As I recall, the Palestinians didn't force anyone to plop a European colony-state on top of them, the Iraqis didn't coerce America into destroying their nation, and Iran didn't have a complex plot to overthrow their democratically elected leaders to be replaced by a despotic monarch. And truthfully I can't remember Morocco, Indonesia, Albania, or Yemen doing much by way of aggression...

Just as I thought. To a Westerner like me, these are not that personal of questions, especially when you are talking about what customs you follow, in accordance with what are in my opinion far too restrictive of practices. You have answered the question adequately for me. You clearly do not follow my beliefs in Freedom of religion and freedom of speech, and I seriously doubt that you respect my beliefs.

Do you think a person should respect the beliefs of another, when that person does not respect their beliefs?

Looks to me more like he just doesn't want to be subject to asinine questions based on ignorance.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


If you were to come up with something surprising, I most certainly would not call it predicable. Considering the vast amount of information on the internet, and that we can now literally have conversations with people around the globe, it is quite easy to find surprisingly interesting ideals and points of view. Somethings are surprising, some merely interesting, some good to know, and somethings boringly predictable.

Let me get this straight, because some people talk about fantastical unbelievable things, this is proof that there is no such thing as western culture? Now that is funny. I think you will find far more reliable and credible sources referring to Western Culture than you will find seriously discussing reptilian overlords.

I have provided a clear definition of Western Culture that fit well into the reference that you provided as a definition of culture. Just because you don't like my definition does not make it wrong. Just because I listed some countries and regions as examples of Western Culture does not mean that I restricted Western Culture to those nations. Do you understand what an example is? I have been consistent in my description of the values that define Western Culture. Besides trying to claim that by naming states and regions as examples of Western Culture, which is not the situation, you have yet to provide an argument of how the basic beliefs of Western Culture do not apply. You claim that culture values must be universal, and that is completely incorrect. You describe secretly conducted actions that where hidden from the people who mainly comprise Western Culture, and claim that is proof that these beliefs are not real. If these beliefs are not real, then why were the actions you describe carried out in secrecy?

Cultural influences do not create a unification of culture. Introduction of the horse to the plains Indians did not unify their culture with Europeans, but it certainly did have an immense effect, along with the introduction of metal, and other western technologies. Just as the Indians have had a great deal of effect on Europe and the world, especially their agriculture, corn, potatoes, and others. A chief is only a chief as long as others are willing to follow him. While these cultures remain distinct, they still have shared traits.

As far as Muslim violence is concerned, let me do a search on the subject.

www.townhall.com...

www.opinionjournal.com...

www.sfgate.com...

www.financialsense.com...

www.sullivan-county.com...

www.americanchronicle.com...

www.pbs.org...

www.frontpagemag.com...[6560F4B3-DCE5-4609-8845-4CD1BF0FE115]

yaleglobal.yale.edu...

www.time.com...

www.indonesiamatters.com...

This is a small sample.

Could there be a clearer example of why the West needs to start taking action against Muslim extremism?

news.yahoo.com...

"Danish police said Tuesday they have arrested several people suspected of plotting to kill one of the 12 cartoonists behind the Prophet Muhammad drawings that sparked an uproar in the Muslim world two years ago."

""There were very concrete murder plans against Kurt Westergaard," said Carsten Juste, the paper's editor-in-chief."

It doesn't look like Muslim moderates are doing anything to stop radical Muslims in their midst. They don't talk about Sharia law, they just kill people who violate it. These types of terrorist activities can not be tolerated.

The only stupid people are the ones who pretend that this is not something to get very upset about, that we should ignore this type of activity.

If I was Danish I would be calling for the deportation of every Muslim who does not swear allegiance to the state over Islam, who refuses to answer certain questions.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by _Phoenix_

 

Just as I thought. To a Westerner like me, these are not that personal of questions, especially when you are talking about what customs you follow, in accordance with what are in my opinion far too restrictive of practices. You have answered the question adequately for me. You clearly do not follow my beliefs in Freedom of religion and freedom of speech, and I seriously doubt that you respect my beliefs.

Do you think a person should respect the beliefs of another, when that person does not respect their beliefs?

Wow you're really harsh and unfair.

I respect everyone! We are all humans.

Your questions were very personal, as if you were interoggating me, I don't want to answer multiple personal questions because you seem a bit mean.

I DO follow the beliefs of freedom of religion and freedom of speech, where did that come from!?

And I do believe people should respect any belief!
Oh by the way I AM A WESTERNER! Stop trying to make sides boy.

Now stop making stuff up about me, and OPEN YOUR EYES!

No sharia law will happen!

Most muslims don't want sharia law.

I gave you my personal life details to tell you how no muslims I talk to has ever even mentioned sharia law.

Muslims are just like you, they follow the laws, and live in this country for freedom.

I gave you proof to back my point up! Those links back up the fact that most muslims don't even want sharia law!

The archbishop is the one who mentioned this, is he muslim? no!

Enough said, it's quite clear that this topic needs no more discussion, because there is nothing to talk about. It's not going to happen and muslims don't want it!

Stop attacking me and making things up! I don't appreciate it.



[edit on 12-2-2008 by _Phoenix_]

Shariah Law in Britian, sure does seem un avoidable !!


here's stage two, going on right now, today.



Title: "Britian Clears Way for Pologamy Benefits" by Al Webb

www.washingtontimes.com.../20080212/FOREIGN/288341825/1001


paraphrase;
-> the British gov't cleared the way for (Muslim) husbands
with as many as 4 wives (allowed by Shariah Law)
to claim welfare benefits for all their partners !!

Sharia Law will NEVER happen in the UK.
Has anyone taken into account the level of criticism Rowan Williams is now facing from people from every walk of British Society.

For once politicians have captured the mood of the nation.

Far too many people in this country will do whatever is necessary to ensure that this doesn't happen.

The Archbishop Of Canterbury has done nothing but unite the country against this ridiculous proposition.

Sharia Law will never happen!

Originally posted by poet1b
Essentially when I am talking about Western culture I am referring to the nations of Western Europe, USA, Canada, Japan, and S. Korea. These are the technologically advanced, first world nations that embrace representative government, market economics, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the rights of man, liberalism, a balance of power between branches of government, trial by a jury of ones peers, equal opportunity for all, the concept that all men are created equal, equal representation under the law, tolerance of others as long as they are tolerant of your own beliefs, as much as you are tolerant of their beliefs, diversity, pursuit of happiness, justice, truth, science, the scientific method, ect..

...blah, blah, blah...And then we have the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kansa, Reverend Fred Phelps presiding: www.godhatesfags.com...

Also constitutionally protected. Just so's you don't think all the religious loonies are brown...

reply to post by _Phoenix_


"Stop trying to make sides boy."

I don't have to make sides, these division were created long ago. Stop trying to pretend that this is not real, that people are not getting murdered because of their beliefs. What you consider personal questions I consider critical questions to determine whether or not someone is being honest or deceptive, and you clearly proved to me that you are being deceptive.

People who can not answer questions like this are people who live in fear. What I wonder is, are you a sheep or a wolf. Anyone who finds these questions harsh and personal, lives in a world that I do not want to live in.

You keep repeating that Muslims do not talk about Sharia law, but what does that mean? It could mean that these things they do not talk about is not important, and does not interest them, or is just not something they have thought about for awhile and do not think about regularly, and when that is the case, those people are willing to talk about such things when the subject comes up. It could also mean that they do not talk about these things because talking about these things can be dangerous to them. When I ask you these question that pertain to Sharia law and you refuse to answer them, it is clear why you do not talk about them.

When you say, "Most muslims don't want sharia law," I believe you. The problem is, that most Muslims are not willing to take the necessary action to escape from Sharia law. You can't even answer basic questions about your relationship to Sharia Law on a forum under an anonymous name!!!!!!!

Are you capable of recognizing how significant that is?

I feel for most Muslim, but I am not willing to sacrifice my freedom, and live in fear of criticizing Muhammad in order to respect your religion. If Muslims do not want people to pick sides, then they had better stop attacking others, and they had better start rooting out the radicals in their midst who are inciting the hatred that is building inside of people every time they read about the atrocities committed by Muslims in the name of Muhammad.

If you do not want me to chose a side, then stop insulting me, and stop trying to play me for a fool, because I, like most others, will only tolerate this for so long before I take action, and I will do everything that needs to be done to protect myself and my loved ones from having to live in fear. You will then find out what this Yank can do.

I dont think anyone can be positive that Sharia law will never be enforced in Britian as, over a long enough time, anything is possible. I for one doubt i will see it im my lifetime and will go down fighting if it is ever seriously considered. As ive said many times this country need not take a step back, our culture certainly isnt perfect but, it is far from barbaric (sorry but i cant say the same about most Muslim theocracy's).

One thing i do not agree with is the assumption that most Muslims "do not even want Sharia law". Well i think you will find as part of the religion, Muslim's must obey Sharia law and see it as perfect. If Muslims didnt want Sharia law they would cease to be Muslims.

Back on topic, im becoming really upset with the bahaviour of some Muslim's in this country. The same people protesting on the street about insults to their imaginary prophet and calling for the heads of my fellow countrymen are driving around in flash cars, benefiting and enjoying all the freedoms this country offers them.

Another opinion, Muslim's inciting violence should be jailed, the only reason this isnt the case is due to the fear factor. Putting a muslim in prison for defending his prophet is like stirring a hornets nest.

They can stand in our capital city with offensive banners draped around themselves, calling for the head of all who insult muhammad.

Calling for death anyone who insults a fabled prophet who might i add, is already long dead.

Muslims show more respect to a dead prophet than actual human life. How about British people defend and protest against the total lack of respect shown by Muslims toward our right to freedom of speech. We are already becoming conditioned to accept various Islamic customs.

Personally i find the Islamic religion to be ignorant and stuck in the past. The religion should modernise and adapt to western culture not the other way around. How would a country like Iran act if we started protesting in the streets burnin copies of the Qu'ran because some Muslim extremist had bombed an Isreali Bus.

We put up with and dance around Islamic religion too much already.


[edit on 12/2/08 by Grenade]

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


As long as those religious nutcases don't start plotting to kill cartoonist because they disagree with their views, or start beating up and killing gays, or inciting people to do these things, they can say what they want, but once they step over that line, they are no longer acceptable to western culture, and will find themselves locked up in a cage with the other animals until they pay society for their crimes, and even after that, their rights will be permanently restricted.

Just because you live in a western nation, does not necessarily mean you are a westerner. Plenty of people choose to continue living in the dark ages, even when they do not have to.