Forbidden Egyptology

Possible yes, of course. But probably even you have to smirk at the idea of a dozen bulls walking around drilling.

Why should I smirk? This is no stranger than using said bulls to plow your fields.
If you dont like a dozen bulls, how about a dozen humans? I just said bulls because they are by default more effective than humans at this (they would equal what, like 50 humans?).

This all sounds like "Well, because they couldnt have possibly had modern technology back then, we´ll have to find another explanation".

Oh the irony

reply to post by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Its my opinion that the Sphinx AND the Pyramids are both pre-flood. This is not the mainstream theory of course.

Its also my opinion to, especially after seeing the interesting findings of Robert Bauval.
He doesn’t claim that the monuments themselves were constructed in that remote epoch, but it is defenet a striking coincidence.

This astronomical conjunction, which only occurs in c. 10,500 BC, does not, of course, mean that the monuments themselves were constructed in that remote epoch. What it does is suggest that the ancient pyramid builders of Giza wanted to define the 'beginning' and the cosmic order of the world in a grandiose architectural symbolic plan. It also adds more cogency to the argument that the ancient Egyptians not only observed and recorded the stars over vast periods of time, but that they were well-aware of the effects of Precession.

Source; www.robertbauval.co.uk...

Carbon 14 dating and the Giza Pyramids.
The only way of knowing how old the great pyramids really are is by means of the Carbon 14 dating method.
So, the question is, are their artefacts or relics available to do such investigation?
And the answer is yes, but how do we get them in our possession in the first place, and more important, are the findings of the results will publicly released?
And there you have a very big problem.

Until late in 1993, it was generally believed that no artefacts or relics of any kind were found inside the Giza pyramids that might be contemporary with the construction of the monuments.

We will all recall that in March 1993 the German Engineer, Rudolf Gantenbrink, explored the shafts of the Queen's Chamber in the Great Pyramid using a miniature robot fitted with a video camera. He was astonished to find that the northern shaft had been probed (probably by the Dixons) with a metal rod (assembled in sections by metal sleeves), the remains of which could be still seen in the shaft.

To reed all go to,

Source; www.robertbauval.co.uk...

There is organic material in the mortar the Egyptians used in pyramid construction.

These materials have been dated several times using the C14 method.

The dates found match well with what the "mainstream" Egyptologists are saying.

Harte

Here's a good video to watch called 'Land of Osiris Egypt Documentary'.

video.google.ca...

Thanks for all the source-material everyone....from both sides of the discussion.

Your contributions make this thread a hell of a read...and resource.

reply to post by Harte


Carbon dating assumed a relatively static system. One where current radiation, heat, light, and who knows what other energies which we have yet to detect, remain the same throughout our history.

I would say carbon-14 dating is analgous to the leaps of faith observed in religion and fringe lunacy. The only difference being that its' acceptance is institutionalized.

Originally posted by Rumrunner
Here's a good video to watch called 'Land of Osiris Egypt Documentary'.

video.google.ca...

Do you have some interesting time indexes for that? I just watched 5 minutes, then I got bored with his granite chipping theory.

That's completely overlooking basic caveman knowledge: a stone can chip another stone. So granite should be able to chip granite, just bash away and get a new rock once its done for.

Something I would do, having neither metallurgy or rock cutting skill, would be to make a hybrid stone/metal tool by dressing a stone in a thin metal layer. The metal would prevent it from chipping while the stone provide the weight and hardness to chip the stone you're trying to work.

Well maybe it wouldnt work. But the Egyptians didnt have the luxuary of trying one way and then giving up.

[edit on 11-2-2008 by merka]

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Your last post is a laugh-out-loud remark. Thanks for that

Btw: Didnt you want to make a remark on your peruvian research?

reply to post by Skyfloating


Thanks Skyfloating. I found another picture of the vase, it is evidently made of stone - quite an amazing piece of work if that is the case. This is a very, very interesting article theorising the level of technology that the Egyptians must have possessed. I found it made perfect sense and required 'different' technological awareness as opposed to attempting to judge it by our own standards of technology. I am sure you have read this before, but for rapidity page 5 is most pertinent.

www.theglobaleducationproject.org...

It is a mind blowing level of technology but also realistic. Slavery is also a factor of course, when life is cheap major leaps in civilisation occur.

The point that I think this thread is making very well is that we don't know and therefore it is open to debate. We cannot judge the Egyptians by modern standards and every theory is viable until proven otherwise and, some theories simply cannot be disproven. These structures represent enormous fetes and as yet no one has explained them, if the truth is not known why wouldn't the 'academic establishment' wish every avenue to be explored. Why is Hawass so exclusive? Incidently who does Hawass report to...is it the Egyptian government or does he have independence???

Either way good thread and excellent ATS material IMO.

The reason Hawass and other countries with antiquities don't allow amateurs to digs into their monuments is simple:

1. They damage the structures - and more importantly THEY DO NOT PUBLISH.

2. Archaeology technique destroys the context of the site, if you destroy the context and then "lose" the data - all is lost

3. Historically "fringe" research have an exceeding poor record of publishing the data they have found, this is for two reasons:

a. lack of skills
b. abandonment of project when wished for results are not found
c. lack of money for negative reports

1. even real archaeologists have trouble obtaining funding for documenting finds that add little or nothing to knowledge


4. Unless fringe "researchers" can find government or respected institutions to support them they are kept out - that is pretty much a universal standard. One can see the mess one gets if you look at the sad story of the Bosnian hills.

5. Even large respected organizations sometimes fail to publish data, however I'd estimate the "fringe failure to publish rate" at over 98%.

Oh and good luck in finding traces of a "machine based" stone cutting industry, after 200 plus years of intensive archaeology, centuries of looting and overwhelming fringe desire to find it - nothing so far. Oh by the way here is a question. If they had "advanced machining", why doesn't there weaponry reflect this? You guys are realling showing unfortunate disrespect for the skills and determination of the Egyptian stone workers.

Speaking of data, publishing and bad people hiding stuff here is a twelve page review of all research dealing with the dating of the sphinx

www.davidpbillington.net...

It is written for general readership

Edited: Just got this from an associate, in regards to the earlier false claim of only Egyptians having granite working capaicity

rail-history.suite101.com...

It would seem the ancient Greeks cut parrallel grooves four miles long...in granite....I guess they had advanced machines too! LOL




[edit on 11/2/08 by Hanslune]

[edit on 11/2/08 by Hanslune]

reply to post by PhotonEffect

Now answer me this, how did the Egyptians do it with copper tools, wooden sledges, and boats?

They used stone tools to begin the process - granite chisels driven by wooden mattocks to start the cutting. They then inserted dry wooden beams, slats, or wedges into the hole made, and soaked it with water. The wood swelled and the stone would crack free. It was then dragged out of the quarry and shaped using the softer copper tools.

By the way, the only flaw of copper tools in this endeavor is that they would need to be reshaped frequently. A copper chisel at the right angle and pressure can shape pretty effectively against even a hard stone like granite. Granite is hard, but it's also brittle. This is much like how wooden and antler tools can be used to shape flint tools. It's all about angle and impact.

Holes were drilled with stone or copper drills, spun rapidly with a bow while a sand and water slurry was being added. The sand would have done most of the cutting. Think of it as high-speed erosion. They could have even done this by using a wooden drill bit, but it would have taken forever.

The block is then levered onto a sledge, and dragged by pack animals to the site. On the site other teams of animals and humans pull, lever, and roll it up the spiral ramping to the level desired and place it. If the fit isn't right, more shaping is done until it does fit correctly. If it is one of the face stones, it is hand-ground with a granite stone and sand, and perhaps even a wooden beam with river silt for a higher-gloss finish, and is then placed in the same way as the bulk stone.

It's all about leverage, impact, and friction - concepts that humans were familiar with back when we were still hunting mammoth. Just because the Egyptians were among the first to apply it on a larger scale than hand-held or household objects doesn't mean they were being coached by extraterrestrials. It simply means they were innovative.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Carbon-14 dating is still more evidence of the time something was alive, than a picture of kids wearing headdresses is evidence of ET contact and rulership over the Egyptians.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by Harte

 

Carbon dating assumed a relatively static system. One where current radiation, heat, light, and who knows what other energies which we have yet to detect, remain the same throughout our history.

"...who knows what other energies..."??

From this, I can see that you (for one) certainly don't.

The mechanism of C14 dating is very well understood. By many people. By many people that post right here at ATS, in fact.

The fact that you don't understand it is more a measure of your disinterest than it is a statement concerning C14's accuracy.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexanI would say carbon-14 dating is analgous to the leaps of faith observed in religion and fringe lunacy. The only difference being that its' acceptance is institutionalized.

Of course, you can say this. There is nothing to prevent you from saying anything at all, after all.

But you might want to consider that sometimes what you say can reveal more about yourself than it does about the subject upon which you are commenting.

Since you don't even know how C14 works, why do you presuppose that you can legitimately judge the results of multiple C14 tests?

Harte

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

I am sure you have read this before, but for rapidity page 5 is most pertinent.

www.theglobaleducationproject.org...

No, I hadnt read that yet. Excellent material and especially some of it new. Thats the spirit Im in currently: No rehash, new stuff.

The point that I think this thread is making very well is that we don't know and therefore it is open to debate. We cannot judge the Egyptians by modern standards and every theory is viable until proven otherwise and, some theories simply cannot be disproven. These structures represent enormous fetes and as yet no one has explained them, if the truth is not known why wouldn't the 'academic establishment' wish every avenue to be explored. Why is Hawass so exclusive? Incidently who does Hawass report to...is it the Egyptian government or does he have independence???

Since Egypt is one of the strictest islamic countries in the world, its difficult to trust that unbiased information will come from there. From all we know Hawass reports to the government.

So we have two filters information run through: The "consesus reality / new inquisition scientific-establishment" and islam. We´re talking about the type of people that wont even admit to extraterrestrial and alternative view in a blue moon.

Since Egypt is one of the strictest islamic countries in the world,

Hardly. The government is harsh, but it's not Islamic in nature - in fact is frequently cracks down on those who want an Islamic government. The government is also extremely big on Egyptology (for understandable reasons). Dude, really... if you don't even know basics about modern Egypt...

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
Hardly. The government is harsh, but it's not Islamic in nature - in fact is frequently cracks down on those who want an Islamic government. The government is also extremely big on Egyptology (for understandable reasons). Dude, really... if you don't even know basics about modern Egypt...

Not true at all. Ive rarely visited a stricter country as far as religion goes. The government wouldnt have anything to do with what a country is like, would it.

Some things us egyptology-skeptics believe:

Alternative Egyptology is predicated on acceptance of the concept of Cyclical History -- the belief that technology, government and other aspects of society do not move inexorably forward. Cyclical History assumes that society is fundamentally unstable and that some aspects of history will tend to repeat themselves, and that knowledge has been lost almost as often as it has been gained, over the course of human development.

Egyptologists acknowledge unsolved problems in Egyptology. Some artifacts have been found that appear to use or require 19th or 20th century technology. The precision in apparently machining the granite of the "sarcophagus" in the Great Pyramid exceeds many method available today. Alternative Egyptology emerged initially from alternative explanations of this evidence of ancient technology.

Alternative theorists note that there is little physical evidence that the pyramids were used as tombs. The great Pharaohs were entombed in the Valley of the Kings and not in the pyramids. The granite box in the Great Pyramid that traditional Egyptology refers to as a sarcophagus bears little resemblance to the sarcophaguses in the Valley of the Kings. Christopher Dunn's theories, presented in The Giza Power Plant, suggest that the Great Pyramid was designed to collect and focus energy and convert it to microwaves. It does not go as far as to suggest a final use for the collected and converted power. Dunn gained increased recognition when he made what seems to have been the most accurate prediction of what was found beyond Gantenbrink's Door.

Another important common observation in Alternative Egyptology regards problems with dating. Dr. Robert M. Schoch's work in dating construction of the Sphynx by considering the weathering of the stone in relationship to ancient climatic changes suggests construction dates significantly older than those understood by Egyptologists. Alternative Egyptology theorists conclude either that there was a previous civilization in Egypt that created certain key artifacts, or that Ancient Egypt as we know it was the successor to an even more ancient civilization.

Researchers Reference Guide to this Thread

Page 1

Hawass & The Extraterrestrials
The Giza Wall & Creightons Giza-Triangle
The Lightbulb-Question
White Powder Gold
Whats under the Sphinx?

Page 2

Hawass Ego
The Pyramids & Natural Harmonics / Geometry
Ancient Egypt, John West & Entheogens/Hallucinogens

Page 3

The Flower of Life
Towers Online - Good Info Resource

Page 4

Pre-Flood Tales, Sitchin
Sirius & Ancient Egypt
"Only 20% Cuneiform-Tablets published"...possible cover-up
Another picture of the Giza Wall
The books of Enoch as a Source
Khufu the Builder?

Page 5

Conspiracy surrounding Gantenbrink (cheops.org)
Construction questions
Intuition vs. schoolbooks
Alien Pictures of ancient egypt

Page 6

Picture of the strange object ("vase") from museum
More alien pictures
Drilling and Machining of ancient egypt
More on the Construction
Starchild Skulls & Egyptian Skulls
The Deluge

Page 7

Positive search results of cavaties under the Sphinx
Jointed corners of ae structures indicative of advanced technology

Page 8

Robert Bauval
Land of Osiris Documentary
Carbon Dating unreliable
Researcher Chris Dunn
Primer on alternative egyptology


Other than that we´ve had plenty of voices in favour of mainstream egyptology. But as this thread is in search of indicators for alternative egyptology they are not included here as they are off-topic.

Originally posted by Hanslune
Oh and good luck in finding traces of a "machine based" stone cutting industry, after 200 plus years of intensive archaeology, centuries of looting and overwhelming fringe desire to find it - nothing so far. Oh by the way here is a question. If they had "advanced machining", why doesn't there weaponry reflect this? You guys are realling showing unfortunate disrespect for the skills and determination of the Egyptian stone workers.

It is a pity that you didn't read the link that I provided to Christopher Dunn's article - he is an engineer and studied the quarrying techniques based on available evidence - of which there is a significant amount. He did so unencumbered by historical record. Even to a layman's ears it makes a lot of sense..nothing about aliens or anything else, he simply theorises based on the available evidence, the 'technology' that he says would have been required is simple but brilliant. No great leaps required just the use of materials available and a little human ingenuity.

Originally posted by Hanslune
rail-history.suite101.com...

It would seem the ancient Greeks cut parrallel grooves four miles long...in granite....I guess they had advanced machines too! LOL

I don't understand the "LOL". Perhaps you would like to explain how both the Greeks and the Egyptians worked stone. The fact is that even with modern machinery we are unable to replicate to the same standard of some of the work undertaken by the Greeks. This article was posted in another thread and describes the restoration of the Parthenon. As it clearly describes we do not know how the Greeks accomplished the accuracy exhibited in the stone work, we do not understand their methods - how then can we assume that we know what the Egyptians did and didn't do.

www.smithsonianmag.com...

It is documented that the Egyptians were making highly detailed objects and funeral vessels from travatine as early as 3000BC. They were masters of stone masonry, the skills used have been lost, the knowledge of the tools has been lost. Copper is too soft, granite flints are too brittle - if copper why not silver, its harder. If granite why not diamonds, they're harder. There are infinite possibilities.

Read Christopher Dunn's analysis - with an open mind. There is nothing to be afraid of, it won't change the world...it simply adds to the debate, it offers a valid argument - certainly no less valid than any of the 'established' theories. The point is none of them would stand up in court and none of them offer definitive evidence.

I'm not personally enamoured by the alien angle, but I see no reason to dismiss it either, it could be time travellers or divine intervention - nobody knows for definate, not really. There is no need to be dismissive and there is no need for the establishment to be stuck in their ways. Great discoveries have been made by flights of the imagination, just look at the technology envisioned by Da Vinci. The weird and the wonderful mark human development, why close our minds to the possibilities? If we do not know, we can theorise and philosophise, and we may eventually reach a conclusion or not. I think therefore I am...there are no bounds, not for me anyway. All things are possible until proven otherwise.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Dr. Zahi Hawass and the Extraterrestrials

SNIP

In the early 1990s, A. Bayuk, a chiropractic from Connecticut, began “channelling extraterrestrials”. According to him and the people who started gathering at these channelling sessions, he would go into a state of trance and channel a group of extraterrestrials or an extraterrestrial entity by the name of “Elan” from a “human-grey hybrid race”. In these sessions he would talk mostly about personal empowerment, UFOs, earth changes…and also about the Egyptian Pyramids. In comparison to the overall “self-empowerment” market, the channelled material was judged by many to be of rather high quality – an evaluation I myself would agree with after having listened to dozens of taped transcripts of the sessions.

Confirmation of Andrew Bayuk's "channeling" activities:
Channeling "Elani"

That site has links to several MP3's of Bayuk's channelings of this entity. I didn't try to verify what Skyfloating said about Elani and alien influence in Ancient Egypt. Maybe someone with some time here can do this.

I had no trouble, BTW, in finding this info, so I don't understand why the admonition to "hurry" in order to verify, as if somebody was removing all the info from the internet or something.

I mean, Bayuk stopped this channelling over ten years ago, yet these audio files are still available.

Harte

Edited to add:

Emails to Bayuk at his Guardian website go unanswered. Anyone interested might contact him at Myspace or at the American Idol Underground webpage featuring his music (apparently he's also an accomplished Folk/Rock singer/songwriter.)

Bayuk's Myspace page

Bayuk's page at American Idol Underground

Post here if he answers any questions regarding his somewhat heretical background.

H.

[edit on 2/12/2008 by Harte]