The Mark of the Beast Identified

reply to post by jdposey


quote :grace is not liberty to sin-----re:thank you for clearing that up for me because i thought you were implying the opposite in the previous post---sorry.

Originally posted by skyshow
Nothing new here with religion...we need to move on to something new kids...

Interesting you wish to "move on". What are you afriad of?

The Basis of Idolatry

Many times after reiterating the Ten Commandments, God again warned Israel against any form of idolatry. "You shall not make idols for yourselves; neither a carved image nor a sacred pillar shall you rear up for yourselves; nor shall you set up an engraved stone in your land, to bow down to it; for I am the Lord your God" (Leviticus 26:1). God was continually against every form of idol or image used in worship. However, lest some misunderstand, let us pause at this point to note that God does not condemn art or sculpture, but rather the setting up of any picture or image or representation "to bow down to it." In the original command in Exodus 20:4–6, God is not condemning every picture and image, but, as the command continues, "you shall not bow down to them nor serve them." So it is the use of art or sculpture as a form of worship or "aid" to worship that God condemns! The real basis of all idolatry is that self-willed, rebellious mankind refuses to surrender himself to worship the true God in the way that He commands! Not really knowing the true God, then, nor having His Spirit, human beings think they need some "aid" or "representation" to help them worship their humanly devised concept of God. Notice that this second commandment is not speaking of the worship of an idol, which is forbidden in the first commandment. This second commandment forbids the use of physical "aids" or "helps" in worshiping the invisible God.

Do not Catholics "pray" to Mary and often make a big issue out of "finding the image" of the "virgin"? Is that not worship? How about praying to various "saints" for intervention?

reply to post by heliosprime


In the Old Testament...
God "glorified those who glorify Him" (I Kings 2:30),
that He is "wondrous in His saints" (Ps. 67:35)
St. James the Apostle says, "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much"(James 5:16),
even as the Three Youths who prayed in the fiery furnace attest: "Cause not Thy mercy to depart from us for Abraham's sake, Thy beloved, for Isaac's sake, Thy servant, and for Israel's, Thy holy one" (Dan
3:34).
for the angel of the Lord appeared to Abimelich and counseled him to seek Abraham's prayers, saying: "He shall pray for thee and thou shalt live" (Gen. 20:7).
In celebrating the feast of a saint, it is God Who is always worshiped,
the saint's contest and victory being the occasion for God to be worshiped. Indeed, He is worshiped and glorified in His saints; He "is wondrous in His saints" (Ps 67:35).
As He said, "I will dwell in them" (11 Cor.6:16)
and, by grace and adoption, they shall be called gods (John 10:34-35).
God Himself has granted His saints their ministry of interceding on our behalf.
quote///I supplicate them and I am in communion with them, even after their death in the flesh, since this death, according to the Apostle, cannot separate us from the love of Christ which unites us.
According
to the Lord's promise, they who believe in Him "shall never die... but are passed from death into life" (John 11:26, 5:24)

And the Smoke of the Insence~

and another in my Fathers house, there are many mansions~

helen

Hi/
I also forgot to add.....
When people pray in front of an Icon, they are not worshipping or praying to the wood or silver or the frame!
An Icon is a representation of the spiritual nature of man, not the sensual earthly body.
When one has an Icon of the Theotokos, one has high respect and love for the person depicted..it reminds one of the heavenly realms or the life lived on earth.....
The Apostle Luke.....
The tradition attributes St. Luke with painting the first icons of the Theotokos. We know of three types he painted: "Umilenie" (Our Lady of Tenderness), "Hodigitria" (She who leads the way), and a third type, of her without a child or praying to the Christ child. (The facts of the third type are confused).
source

Theologically, the icons of the Theotokos represent the first human being who realized the goal of the Incarnation: the deification of man. This is in contrast to the icons of Christ, the basis for all iconography, representing God who became man.

Icons are filled with symbolism portraying the person or the event depicted on the Icon...
....eg/Lets take the Icon of Saint George!


St George is depicted killing a 'dragon' it is not a real dragon, it is 'symbolic' of good overcoming evil....
There are also many legends to attributed to Saint George!
more on Saint George~

St. Luke, the First Iconographer of the Church
The writers of the ancient Church inform us that St. Luke, acceding to the pious desire of the early Christians, was the first to paint the image of the all-holy Theotokos, holding in her arms the pre-eternal Infant, our Lord Jesus Christ; and later painted two other icons of the all-holy Theotokos and brought them to the Mother of God for her approval. On seeing the icons, she said: "May the grace of Him Who was born of me and my mercy be with these icons!"

The holy Luke also painted on boards the images of the holy pre-eminent Apostles Peter and Paul, and was thus himself the initiator of the good work of iconography, to the glory of God, the Mother of God and all the saints, unto the adornment of the holy churches and the salvation of the faithful who piously venerate them. Amen.

IX
helen

reply to post by helen670


Thank you for your reply, BUT, none of what you post makes any sense about praying to Mary or the worship of Idols..............

Please explan more.............

Originally posted by heliosprime
reply to post by helen670

 

Thank you for your reply, BUT, none of what you post makes any sense about praying to Mary or the worship of Idols..............

Please explan more.............

When one has an Icon with the depiction of the Theotokos(Mother of God)one does not WORSHIP the icon.....one sees with the eyes and keeps that image in their mind.
When in church or a home that has Icons, they are not there because of Worship, but because it reminds one of the heavens.
To say a prayer and ask the Saint or person depicted in the Icon for their prayers,is not praying to THAT person depicted, but to say a prayer on our behalf.....their life on earth was with prayer and fasting and they done the work of God.
Although we can do the same, we are not worthy(as Saint John the Babtist said)to face God with our sinfullness.
By all means, prayers or psalms are good and should be read everyday, but when we feel unworthy, we ask for Help.....We ask the Saints or the Theotokos depicted in the Icon, to INTERCEDE on our behalf.
Similarly to when we have a fight with a friend, and we ask another friend to put in a good word for us....we ask them because we may/are ashamed of what happened and by having a third person intervene on our behalf, we feel a little better facing them!
This intercede on our behalf....From the Old Testament/

"Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints"), Psalm 149:5, 9 ("Let the saints be joyful in glory . . . this honor have all His saints"), Proverbs 2:8 ("He guards the paths of justice, and preserves the way of His saints"), and Daniel 7:22 (". . . until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom"
And a few more.......quote///"But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him".
/The parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), in which Jesus relates the conversation of Abraham, in Paradise, with the deceased rich man whose soul has descended into Hades.
/Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross: "Today you will be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43).
/The Book of the Apocalypse(Revelation)in which shows us the saints in heaven, before the Great Tribulation,
being very active indeed-falling on their faces in worship before the throne of God, casting their crowns to the King of Glory, singing His praises, and speaking to Him (Revelation 4:4, 10, 11; 5:8-10, 13; 6:9-11; 7:9-12)

And by the Intercession(the act of intervening -as to mediate a dispute on our behalf) we Humble ourselves, in the Presence of the Lord alive with His Saints.
It is done in a humble way and the way many of the Early Christians had done and still do.

Hope that was understood a little better.
IX
helen

reply to post by helen670


K, nowhere in any text did you see........pray to the saints.........pray to my mother.........How many times on TV do we see hoards of people kneeling and praying to some twisted image of the "blessed virgin" on a rock or side of a building. Nowhere does the scripture tell you to confess your sins to a "priest", or any human.

Pray to the father, and Jesus is saviour ONLY. Rosary, Idols, paintings, ICON's as you call them are "graven images".

Please explain "hail mary full of grace"? We are to worship the FATHER through his son JESUS, with the help of the HOLY SPIRIT.

No saints, virgins, beads, statues, icons, cheese sandwich that looks like mary, images of mary of buildings...........etc...........

Please show me scripture where this is OK.............

The father says worship me, on my day, the way he says..........all others are false.................and perhaps a MARK of the BEAST!!!!!!!!!!!

Please see the original post............



Rem when Jesus was seen with Moses and Elijah, the apostles wanted to erect a temple to them and GOD himself spoke out against it. "This is my son, in him I am well pleased"...........

[edit on 5-2-2008 by heliosprime]

"Man was not made for the sabbath, sabbath was made for man." Now, I wonder who might have said that.....

A bit off topic but I have 666 tattooed on my right forearm. Not on purpose though. I have a one eyed jack and the three locks of hair are curled up into a "6". So, the three curly locks of hair make 666. I just thought it was amusing. Seems I have quite a bit of work to do distracting you christians and all! Really, I'm not an A** hole.

Originally posted by AshleyD
That is an interesting point you bring up there. I always wondered about non Christians who quote the Bible to prove a point when they already think it is a work of fiction in the first place. Or to point out some passage (taken out of context 99% of the time) to point out someone's error.

Because they quote it to people who believe the source to be the inviolate word of God himself, and who purport to live by the laws and ideals represented within. You're not this dense, Ashley.

Of course, they labor under the misconception that Christians actually care what the Bible says on anything.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Again, it's not just being quoted the Bible- it's being quoted a passage that is taken horribly out of context in order to throw something in our faces. This is why I don't quote the Koran to Muslims or the Vedic Writings to Hindus in order to "correct" them because 99% of the time they will know the context better than me and can put me in my place. It always seems arrogant for people to quote anyone's religious texts thinking they will know the beliefs better than the actual believer. It seems more sound to ask ("Doesn't the Bible say this?") instead of demand ("Your Bible says this so that is what you should be doing.").

Just my two cents.

[edit on 2/5/2008 by AshleyD]

to keep the sabbath is a part (the 4th commandment)of the 10 commandments of exodus 20 and deuteronomy 5.Messiah says He is Lord of the sabbath(matthew 12:8 )and that He didn't come to do away with the law (matthew 5:17)

you can read the scriptures from beginning to end and find no excuse to reject this law or find authority to change from observing the 7th day to observing the 1st day as a substitute.

hebrew 4:9 says there remains a sabbath rest for the people of G-D.common sense tells me that the people of G-D keep the 7th day sabbath and those that aren't G-D's people do not keep the shabbat.

reply to post by AshleyD


Yeah, it's easy to take something out of context when the context keeps changing according to the needs of whoever you're arguing with, I've noticed. You guys really need to settle on canon, 'cause this "interpret it as I like" business is nothing but problems.

The TEN commandments are to be followed....
YES!
"All that the Lord has spoken, we will do" (Exodus 19:8).

Moses spent 40 days with the Lord, Who "gave to him, when he had made an end of speaking with him upon Mt. Sinai, the two tables of the testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God" (Exodus 31:18).

In the New Testament the Whole of the Old Testament had been fullfilled By Jesus Christ.
The sermon of the Mount....Mark (12:29-31), "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might" also, "thou shalt love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandments greater than these." (cf Deut. 6:4,5; Lev. 19:18).
The Resting Day or the Lords day(Kiria-ki mera) means Sunday...which is the Day of Resurrection.
Sunday translated from the Greek means .....The Lords Day.

But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, (the women) went to the tomb, taking the spices which they had prepared (Luke 24:1)
And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone,
and sat upon it.
His appearance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow.
And for fear of him the guards trembled and became like dead men.
But the angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid; for I know that you seek Jesus Who was crucified.
He is not here; for He has risen, as He said. Come, see the place where He lay.
Then go quickly and tell His disciples that He has risen from the dead (Matt. 28-2-7).
Jesus Christ had RISEN and on this Day it becomes the New Rest day, which is the Lords day... If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins (1 Cor. 15:14, 17)
Still in your sins?
Death as it was in the Old Testament...abolished original sin?DEATH.
But Christ abolished original sin and cleansed the fallen Adam (Eph, 1:7). With His divine blood He raises man into a new creation (1 Cur. 15.13-26)
Raises man to a new creation!

IX
helen

Originally posted by yahn goodey

hebrew 4:9 says there remains a sabbath rest for the people of G-D.common sense tells me that the people of G-D keep the 7th day sabbath and those that aren't G-D's people do not keep the shabbat.

After reading all the excuses as to why people don't keep sabbath the most profound reason is stated above..........

common sense tells me that the people of G-D keep the 7th day sabbath and those that aren't G-D's people do not keep the shabbat.

Hence............they have the MARK of the BEAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BRAVO.......(author leaps to his feet cheering widely)

Hi/

I don't see where the connection with the mark of the Beast and that of the 'keeping the Sabbath' of the Old Covenant applies?
I Observe Sunday as the Lords Day...Kiriaki mera
I can still buy and sell!
Or is it because the Antichrist has not made an appearance yet!
"no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." Rev. 13:17
This totally means that when the MARK is in place, no one who has not the MARK will be able to buy or sell..therefore will probably die a slow death..hunger!
If a post is to make sense, keep it sensible!

666.....this number of the Beast has been resolved!
It is the number of man(6 being man was created on the sixth day)triple the evil of man.
When all of man is asked to unite under one Ruler, then it is HE who will be the Antichrist, working along with his false prophet and followers.
Saint John the Baptist Prophesied that one Greater will come of which he is not worthy to tie his laces,likewise one False prophet shall make welcome the Antichrist.....with Signs and great wonders to deceive the elect!

Sabbath.....

For example, the Law required animal sacrifice. But Christians approach God through the sacrifice of Jesus, the Lamb of God, thereby fulfilling the spirit of the Law. The Law required circumcision on the eighth day. We don't obey that command literally, but have a “circumcision ... of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter” (Rom. 2:29). Under the Law, it was forbidden to yoke an ox with a donkey. The application for New Covenant saints, is “Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers” (2 Cor. 6:14). The Law required a seventh-day Sabbath-rest, but we find true spiritual rest in Christ himself (Matt. 11:28-30). These are the new applications for old commandments. This is how our righteousness can exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees (Matt.5:17-20).

I began to understand that Christians are under "the law of Christ" (Gal. 6:2; 1 Cor. 9:21).

www.ukapologetics.net...

IX
helen

reply to post by helen670

When one has an Icon with the depiction of the Theotokos(Mother of God)one does not WORSHIP the icon.....one sees with the eyes and keeps that image in their mind.

Oh I see, so why was the golden calf destroyed then? Are you going to tell us that they were worshiping the material that the calf was made out of, or were they seeing with their eyes the calf and "felt" what it really represented which was quite probably Taurus the constilation?

[edit on 5-2-2008 by skyshow]

reply to post by heliosprime


Now that we've cleared that, are you done yet?

Myself, I've been "marked by the beast" ever since I accepted my totems.

reply to post by skyshow


More likely it was a representation of Hathor. Taurus was never a focus of worship by anyone, any more than the Nemean Lion. And Taurus was Greco-Roman, and the Hebrews in hte Story had just come out of Dynastic Egypt.

Originally posted by skyshow
reply to post by helen670

 

When one has an Icon with the depiction of the Theotokos(Mother of God)one does not WORSHIP the icon.....one sees with the eyes and keeps that image in their mind.

Oh I see, so why was the golden calf destroyed then? Are you going to tell us that they were worshiping the material that the calf was made out of, or were they seeing with their eyes the calf and "felt" what it really represented which was quite probably Taurus the constilation?

[edit on 5-2-2008 by skyshow]

Make yourself no graven images applies to the golden-calf type of idolatry and worshiping anything other then God,
since "no man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.
You cannot serve God and mammon." (Matthew, 6:24; Luke 16:13) Now, that's Idolatry!
Th Golden calf was an image of an earth animal....
When the Son of God took flesh and became man, He took on the appearance of man.we now have an image, whilst in the Old Testament there was no image!

An Icon, is not Idolatry!
When God instructed Moses for building the Arc of the Covenant: Ark of the Covenant "And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover.
Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.
The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them.
The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover." (Exodus, 25:18-20)This was the first Icon of the Heavenly realm.

An Icon of Jesus Christ and the Theotokos and His Saints and the Angels are all about the confirmation of the Son of God who......."became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory" (John, 1:14).
Icon exists ever since "God is revealed in the flesh" (I Tim. 3:16),
it is repeating the same good news that "a Savior has been born to you, He is Christ the Lord" (Luke 2:11)

And yet another example...."As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up that whoever believes in Him may have eternal life…." [Jn. 3:14]
"You shall not make for yourselves a graven image," and now we have one who condemned the golden calf,
now makes a bronze serpent (Num. 21:4)
The Serpent that of Which Moses lifted Up....pre-figuration of Christ.


Outside source/
"Let us go to His dwelling place; let us worship at His footstool," (Ps. 132:7) or as when the people of Israel once offered sacrifices and worshipped in His tent,
or encircled the temple in Jerusalem fixing their gaze upon it from all sides and worshipping as their kings had commanded,
or as Jacob bowed to the ground before Esau, his elder brother, (Gen. 33:3) and before Pharaoh, the ruler whose authority was established by God. (Gen. 47:7)
Joseph's brothers prostrated themselves in homage on the ground before him. (Gen. 50:18)
Other types of worship is given to show respect,
as was the case with Abraham and the sons of Nahor. (Gen. 23:7)
Either do away with worship completely, or else accept it in the manner and with the esteem it deserves......Is the Incarnate of God.The Son of God an Idol Image?

outside source/
It is clearly a prohibition of representing the invisible God.
But when you see Him who has no body become man for you, then you will make representations of His human aspect.
When the Invisible, having clothed Himself in the flesh,
becomes visible, then represent the likeness of Him who has appeared.... When He who, having been the consubstantial Image of the Father, emptied Himself by taking the form of a servant (Phil. 2: 6-7)Took Flesh and became Man.
thus becoming bound in quantity and quality, having taken on the carnal image, then paint and make visible to everyone Him who desired to become visible.
Paint His birth from the Virgin, His Baptism in the Jordan, His Transfiguration on Mt. Tabor.... Paint everything with words and colors, in books and on boards.
Thus, if God is directly revealed in the Old Testament only by word ("you heard the sound of words, but saw no form" [Dt. 4: 12]),
As Christ is the image of the Father (hos estin eikon tou Theou, II Cor. 4:4; cf. Col. 1:15)— so much so that he who has seen the Son has seen the Father...
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son [tes eikonos tou hiou autou],
that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom. 8:29)
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image [katoptrizomenoi ten auten eikona] from glory to glory,
even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (1 Cor. 3:18)
And have put on the new man,
which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him [eis epignosin kat eikona tou ktisantos auton]…(Col. 3:10)


IX
helen