The Mark of the Beast Identified

Originally posted by AshleyD


I was being silent for a reason, I swear!

1) I've explained The Jewish Law and how it relates Christianity so many times on ATS I'm exhausted on the subject and bored with it now.

You may explain all you wish, yet the truth is that the law is for MANKIND not the jews. Again, the traditions of man, (catholic nonsense)

Originally posted by AshleyD

2) We are told in the N.T. not to judge others for whichever day they decide to hold their services, whether it be on Saturday or Sunday.

The LORD specifically requires in his commandments to keep the 7th day sabbath. It has nothing to do with "judgeing". It has to do with being faithful to what GOD asks of HIS people. Those who do not obey are not his people.

Originally posted by AshleyD

3) And the most important: Every day should be a "Sabbath" in our lives. So we're supposed to only love Jesus, worship God, and behave ourselves one day of the week? Give Him one day of reverence while we hoard the rest? No thanks. Our "Sabbath" should be celebrated Sunday through Saturday. Not Sunday or Saturday. And that is Holy Rolling defined for all.

The scripture you refer to teaches we are to "walk" in Christ each day, to emulate HIM in his perfection in the eyes of his father. We should "behave" all days but worship on the one(s) GOD requires.
Again YOU put the traditions of man above GOD for convienience, to make your life feel better, all warm and fuzzy in YOUR tradition. You set yourself above Jesus and the LORD GOD.

[edit on 1-2-2008 by heliosprime]

Originally posted by jimbo999
It should also be noted, in light of the constant barrage of christian nonsense on this board recently, that most well-informed and intelligent higher ranking members of Christ's first and most powerful church, the roman catholic church, admit privately that Jesus was just a man, and nothing more. They 'deified' him in order to diseminate his teachings with more credibility (it being a time of much superstitious belief).
[edit on 1-2-2008 by jimbo999]

Ahhh...........the Catholic Church has little to do with Christianity, everything to do with Idolatry, and false worship. Praying to "saints" and "mary" is blasphemy............a direct slap in the face of Jesus.........

In reading all these "superior" intellectual replies posted to this thread, it becomes well documented that the true sign of the beast is false worship and abandonng the commandments for the traditions of man as set forth by satan...............

God Bless those who read the truth an open their eyes..........for the rest the MARK of the BEAST you have already accepted........

Originally posted by heliosprime

Originally posted by jimbo999
It should also be noted, in light of the constant barrage of christian nonsense on this board recently, that most well-informed and intelligent higher ranking members of Christ's first and most powerful church, the roman catholic church, admit privately that Jesus was just a man, and nothing more. They 'deified' him in order to diseminate his teachings with more credibility (it being a time of much superstitious belief).
[edit on 1-2-2008 by jimbo999]

Ahhh...........the Catholic Church has little to do with Christianity, everything to do with Idolatry, and false worship. Praying to "saints" and "mary" is blasphemy............a direct slap in the face of Jesus.........

You just don't get it, do you? These guys 'invented' Jesus! Long before any other christian church existed - including yours. No-one knows more about 'Jesus' than they do And they *know* it's a fable...

J.

Originally posted by heliosprime
In reading all these "superior" intellectual replies posted to this thread, it becomes well documented that the true sign of the beast is false worship and abandonng the commandments for the traditions of man as set forth by satan...............

God Bless those who read the truth an open their eyes..........for the rest the MARK of the BEAST you have already accepted........

YAWN....yeah, right. Well, at least you recognise intellectual superiority when you see it; not something that happens at church too often huh? Perhaps you should just leave it at that then. I'm sure there are plenty of christian boards where you can snuggle down with your own kind and have a real ball enthusing about the inevitability of the coming armageddon!

Sorry if that was a difficult read...

J.

Originally posted by skyshow
reply to post by AshleyD

 

You're so close! The "AshleyD account" is actually an automatic responder bot. No person behind the curtain. "There is no Dana. Only Zu'ul." But I do... er... I mean "the bot" finds it amusing that when you cannot rebut "its" arguments you have to criticize "AshleyD" as a "person." The humor is compounded by the fact you consistently preach against judging others. Hypocrisy? The bot thinks so.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!!!!! I'm still waiting for that research from sources that are not "faith based" (in otherwords anyone can set up multiple web sites and make claims with the bible being the source...just because you have multiple web sites for your basis does not make it "multiple sources"...the only place you can get away with this is in Christendom" trust me...you have tainted sources that come with an agenda...I asked you for some sources outside of that, and yet I still wait, but you say I'm the one who doesn't rebut LOL my whole entire thread is one great big wet sloppy rebut and so are many other threads you post on, yet you can't offer up anything other than what they tell you at your church, or that is directly or based on the bible...that's fine, but we need more sources besides the very thing we are debating (does this make since? you can't argue the validity and reliability in something by using the very something to make your argument) But carry on with the very kind of thinking that drives many of us "educated heathens" farther away from such a farce.

[edit on 31-1-2008 by skyshow]

Ahhh....so this guy has a little side-line in extremist christian websites huh? Hmmm...thanks for wiseing me up on that little tidbit. Do wonders ever cease??

J.

[edit on 1-2-2008 by jimbo999]

God Bless those who read the truth an open their eyes..........for the rest the MARK of the BEAST you have already accepted........

Matt. 7:1-2 Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.


To the OP:

It's sad that with all of the information on the internet about Armstrongian cults, that people such as yourself (who obviously have the internet and it's wealth of information at your fingertips) still cling to the teachings of a false prophet.

British Israelism? This false teaching has been disproven by so many different scholars its laughable to even consider. Armstrong a prophet? Scripture plainly states that just ONE false prophesy disqualifies someone from being a "prophet of God." I know the splinter groups like to say "he just got the date's wrong..." but this is just another falsehood easily proven. Armstrong made prophesies about people who are DEAD that never came true. Now, if you speak a prophesy about the wrong person, in the wrong time, it's a FALSE prophesy. The Plain Truth editions where he makes these claims are available to download at numerous sites, so it’s not “dissenting litertature.”

Another big one: Armstrong an apostle? One of the Biblical requirements for one to be rightly regarded as an apostle were those following Jesus from the time of John’s baptism. They also were to have seen the risen Lord to be witnesses of his resurrection. When the closed group of twelve became eleven, they sought another to take Judas' office: Acts 1:21-22 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time the Lord Jesus went in and among us beginning from the baptism of John to that day he was taken up from us One of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.' “ Of all the people they could have chose from they HAD to choose from those who met the requirements, and thus Mattias took Judas' position. Gal.1:1,1 as well as 1Cor.15:3 make it clear that to be an apostle one must have recieved divine truth DIRECTLY from Christ IN THE FLESH, not by some revelatory experience after he was crucified.

I’m not certain which splinter group you’re a part of, but the first thing you should do is research its leader. Gerald Flurry, leader of the Philadelphia Church of God, for example, has a nice little police record for being drunk in his vehicle on his sabbath, then and attempting to bribe the police officer who arrested him. It’s PUBLIC record. Now, I know they like to tell you that this dissenting information is just Satan trying to turn people away from the “Truth,” but I guarantee you one thing: Ask your regional director about any of the things I’ve mentioned in this post alone, and you’ll find yourself branded as having “a government problem,” and if you push it too far you’ll be disfellowshipped and marked, just for asking questions. One book that will certainly get you in hot water is Armstrong’s 1975 in Prophesy, which has dozens of ludicrous and obviously wrong “prophesies.”

A little known fact to the members of PCG, WCG, and LCG is that during their ministerial conferences, there is a seminarial course titled “Difficult Scriptures,” which entails all of the Biblical references that flat out prove their lies. The high-ranking ministers (regional director and above) are instructed to tell members that bring questions about these scriptures to “get back to basics and study Mystery of the Ages,” and if that doesn’t fix the problem, these people are to be disfellowshipped and marked because they pose the risk of “infecting” the rest of the “Brethren.” Members are not allowed to speak to those who have been "marked."

I’ve come to the conclusion that the OP is one of two things. Either he’s a well-intentioned member of one of these groups, who sincerely wants to spread what he consideres the truth; or he’s a high-ranking official attempting to prosylitize membership from those on ATS in search of answers. If it be the former, please do a simple experiment in your own home: Sit down with some of their literature (Mystery of the Ages is a perfect example) and look up every single verse listed, which supposedly “proves” what said literature says, and read it in its context. Half the time it doesn’t correllate at all with what they’re saying, and the other half, the context makes the meaning clear. If it be the latter, then it's just one more evil man attempting to line his pockets a bit more.

In all of my posts in this thread, I’ve attempted to approach this issue with tact, and scholarly responses. I have experience, as a therapist, counselling those who have been abused by Armstrong-based cults, and I recognized the theme. I’ve tried to list scriptural references, since that is what the OP used to “prove” his points. To any interested in these cults, the truth is readily at your fingertips, whether you choose to look at the Bible, or at secular sources, such as all of the court cases levied against these groups, the police and tax records, etc. etc.

Yes, I thought, although I could be mistaked here, that the credo of ATS was 'DENY IGNORANCE'? Why then I wonder, is there a sudden upsurge in bizzarre and ignorant religious nonsense being posted all over the forums here? Disturbing & irritating I say.

I whole-heartedly agree. One problem: Denying Ignorance requires critical thought. One of the first things any cult does, be it Bible based, or otherwise, is brainwash the critical thinking abilities out of the membership. -

Originally posted by jimbo999
Yes, but people do not insist on changing society to please the 'Will of Alexander the Great'. Nor do they ask people to blow themselves up in the name of 'Socrates' either.

"Blowing yourself up" is mostly a Muslim terrorist tactic that happens often in the East. Insane Christians who engage in things like abortion clinic bombings are few and far between. When such a thing happens, it is splashed all over the media because the events are so rare.

The analogy you give is inneffective and irrelevant.

Not really. There are many studied scholars who can look at the evidence and believe He existed but deny His divinity. You don't have to accept Jesus as God just because He existed. Even the Jews believe He existed but of course deny His divinity as I'm sure you know. But the easiest and most lazy way to dismiss the whole thing is to say He never existed in spite of the evidence.

To the best of my knowledge, there are no 'eyewitness' accounts of Jesus outside of those in the New Testament.

There are a few but they are still... Christians. lol Nothing you would be excited about. But the thing is, why would a Roman or Jewish historian record anything about Jesus during His life time? The "best part" didn't happen until after His death and ascension. For the time being, Jesus was just another spiritual teacher. Nothing to write home about until after it became a movement that couldn't be stopped.

the roman catholic church, admit privately that Jesus was just a man, and nothing more.

What is your source? On the flip side, at least they even acknowledge He existed. But seriously, where did you read this?

Ahhh....so this guy has a little side-line in extremist christian websites huh? Hmmm...thanks for wiseing me up on that little tidbit. Do wonders ever cease??

It goes back to another thread where we were discussing pagan origins of Christianity. The initial sites debunked the claims but they were Christian based so she/he asked me for the names of secular scholars and I gave her/him those too. Nothing "extremist" about it.

Originally posted by BlaznRob
I’ve come to the conclusion that the OP is one of two things. Either he’s a well-intentioned member of one of these groups, who sincerely wants to spread what he consideres the truth; or he’s a high-ranking official attempting to prosylitize membership from those on ATS in search of answers. If it be the former, please do a simple experiment in your own home: Sit down with some of their literature (Mystery of the Ages is a perfect example) and look up every single verse listed, which supposedly “proves” what said literature says, and read it in its context. Half the time it doesn’t correllate at all with what they’re saying, and the other half, the context makes the meaning clear. If it be the latter, then it's just one more evil man attempting to line his pockets a bit more.

Armstong was not a prophet nor apostle, I am not a member of the worldwide chruch of god nor any splnter group. I have never read the "mystery of the ages" nor "the great controversy" .

I do read and study the bible. I do agree with many of the books on WWCOG. I do think Armstrong was a GOOD man. ALL the literature from WWCOG is FREE, always has been, always will be. There was and is no "lineing of pockets".

"The Apostle John explained: "He who says, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:4). "

It would appear YOU are a member of the California cult of a splinter group..............You are rather detailed in your charges.........

The bible teaches to keep the 7th day sabbath and the commandments, and the holy days. Jesus did, the apostles did and all children of Israel should. It is not "judgment" to speak the truth and point of falsehood. It is a false teaching to keep throwing out "thou salt not judge" anythine truth shows up. Sounds a bit like satans speakng to use Jesus works against him, just as the anti-christ will.

When truth draws near, the false one screams details of mens failings but does not point to the true teaching therein..................

Those who seek the truth will find it, those who seek evil also find it...........

Yet more proof of the mark...........isn't it...............

Originally posted by heliosprime
The bible teaches to keep the 7th day sabbath and the commandments, and the holy days. Jesus did, the apostles did and all children of Israel should.

Hello again, Heliosprime. I have some questions for you and they are very honest questions free of any insidious intentions.

Other than the Old Testament reference about the Sabbath being an everlasting covenant, will you please direct me to where in the New Testament it is a sin to worship on Sunday instead of Saturday? I'm sure you've answered this already but if you could offer some references about where it is a sin, I'd love to look them up and examine the contexts.

It is a false teaching to keep throwing out "thou salt not judge" anythine truth shows up. Sounds a bit like satans speakng to use Jesus works against him...

That is an interesting point you bring up there. I always wondered about non Christians who quote the Bible to prove a point when they already think it is a work of fiction in the first place. Or to point out some passage (taken out of context 99% of the time) to point out someone's error.

Yet more proof of the mark.

The original post didn't make it too clear to me. Why do you believe the mark is automatically equated with Sunday worship? It doesn't prevent us from buying and selling, I'm not sure how it is placed on our hand and forehead, I don't see anyone being put to death for worshiping on Sunday instead of Saturday, nor do I see anyone being forced to do so to survive.

Do you believe it is just a general metaphorical mark or the mark John mentions? Thanks in advance.

Originally posted by AshleyD

Other than the Old Testament reference about the Sabbath being an everlasting covenant, will you please direct me to where in the New Testament it is a sin to worship on Sunday instead of Saturday? I'm sure you've answered this already but if you could offer some references about where it is a sin, I'd love to look them up and examine the contexts.

Point-1........there is no reference in the bible to a 1st day of the week sabbath. There are many to the 7th day sabbath.

Point-2 .....It is NOT a sin to worship "GOD" on sunday, but it is a sin to ignore the 7th day sabbath.

Why and When the Weekly Sabbath was Moved
During the period 30 CE to 313 CE, Christians lived in a predominately Pagan world. There was a mosaic of Pagan religions in the Roman Empire:

The long established, official religion of the Roman Empire was Pagan. It involved worship of -- or at least nominal sacrifices to -- a pantheon of Roman deities, both Gods and Goddesses.
A strong competitor to Christianity in those days was a third religion: Mithraism. This faith involved the worship of a Persian God Mithra, and was popular among the Roman civil service and military.
There were many other smaller religions, including the Pagan religions of Greece and Egypt, and the mystery religions.

The Roman religion and Mithraism reserved Sunday as their day of religious observance. Many Christians were probably tempted to follow suit.

The Christians were also motivated to change the Sabbath day as a method of distancing themselves from the Jews. Two reasons were:

The Government intermittently persecuted the Jews at this time; it was safer for Christianity to be considered as a separate religion rather than as a sect of Judaism.
Relations between the Jews and Christians was hostile at this time. The early Christian church had suffered much persecution from the Jews.

In 321 CE, while a Pagan sun-worshiper, the Emperor Constantine declared that Sunday was to be a day of rest throughout the Roman Empire:

"On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost."

The Church Council of Laodicea circa 364 CE ordered that religious observances were to be conducted on Sunday, not Saturday. Sunday became the new Sabbath. They ruled: "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day." There are many indicators in the historical record that some Christians ignored the Church's ruling. Sabbath observance was noted in Wales as late as 1115 CE. Francis Xavier was concerned about Sabbath worship in Goa, India in 1560 CE; he called for the Inquisition to set up an office there to stamp out what he called "Jewish wickedness". A Catholic Provincial Council suppressed the practice in Norway in 1435 CE.

There is much to read in this link, please read carefully all it says.

www.religioustolerance.org...

The issue of the mark is the work done on sabbath and ignoring the LORD GOD.

It may also be the worship of pagan gods as indicated in the linked text.......

I see all are getting along as usual when your faith is involved. Faith is such a flimsy word when scrutinized by the masses. Applauses to all who debate your destiny. The fallen will comfort you in the days and nights to come and the carriers of souls will be there to guide your way.

reply to post by TEMELUCHUS


Yes but as to the topic, don't you think that the beast would be ONE that was WINGED?

reply to post by BlaznRob


just read your thoughts on armstrongs?

back in the late 60's and thru the 70's when i had to drive across north america as part of my job i and the truckers(heard them talking about him on their cb radios)used to listen on the radio to a garner ted armstrong-----as far as i'm concernd he made a lot more sense out of religion than anyone else i have ever heard talking to the public----at least he talked like he was normal instead of this gasping and wheezing buisness while begging for money that most preachers seem to think is necessary while trying to "convert" (fleece)us.

matter of fact until i heard him i never had a bible--he used to make me so mad that i went and got one just to try prove him wrong--i still have my bible and still am trying to learn all i can about G-D thanks to hearing him on radio years ago.

if yours was the only voice i got to hear about G-D i would have never bothered to look for a bible at all and i would have committed suicide instead of trying to make sense of this crazy world.my secular jewish parents and entire family never mentioned G-D at all when i was a kid up till 20 when i left them----it was hearing gta that got me searching for the truth--never stopped after that--now almost 61-- i miss him

reply to post by intrepid
Interesting interpretation but misguided. Not everything is what it is not. Waiting for the truth is not always a pleasing endeavor.

I don't understand why people make the Gospel so complicated? It's as easy as this:

THE LAW:
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
GRACE:
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

THE RESULT OF LAW V GRACE:
I tell you, this man (Publican) went down to his house justified rather than the other (Pharisee): for every one that exalteth himself(Law) shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself(Grace) shall be exalted.
Luke 18:9-14

No need to thank me for simplifying this matter!

reply to post by jdposey


thank you for simplifying grace and law----could you please help me to understand romans 6:12 do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you may obey its lusts and romans 6:15 ?what then ?shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? may it never be --------23 for the wages of sin is death,but the free gift of G-D is eternal life in Messiah.

my understanding is that we can be forgiven of past sins by accepting Messiahs sacrifice/dying in our place for our sins and so we come under grace---but this is not a license to continue in committing future willful sins is it ?

reply to post by yahn goodey


People who don't understand Grace, are fearful of Grace, I think. They think when someone mentions Grace, they automatically think it's a license to sin. What we have to understand is that we are under the Perfect Law of Liberty. That IS NOT liberty to sin but liberty from the power of sin over us. Does it mean we will not sin? Of course not. As long as we are in this flesh, we will sin. The day you believed, God began a work in you and will continue it until the day of Jesus Christ. It is a life time process, a life time walk and in that walk you will fall and at times fall miserably. (A just man/woman falleth seven times and riseth up again...) You will fall, but you get up, confess your sin, ask for forgiveness and move on.

As for your sins and the blood of Jesus and just how far reaching that blood is, it applies to all of your sins! When Jesus was crucified 2000 years ago, how many of your sins were in the future? You talk about past sins, in retrospect of future, willful sins. All of your sins, past present and future were there with Christ on the cross. Christ is always in heaven interceding on our behalf, non stop, His blood is continually pleading our case before the Father. You keep your faith in Christ and his blood and realize, it is not your righteousness that is ever in question, you have the imputed righteousness of Jesus. When I fall into sin and the adversary comes around to condemn or accuse me, make me feel guilty, that is IMPOSSIBLE, because I am clothed in the righteousness of Christ and the adversary can not accuse Christ of anything. That is why there is no condemnation for those in Christ.

Final note, the good news will ALWAYS be, where sin abounds, GRACE will abound EVEN MORE. You can't out do the Grace of God, lest you fail to keep your faith centered in Christ and His shed blood.

Originally posted by heliosprime

Originally posted by jimbo999
It should also be noted, in light of the constant barrage of christian nonsense on this board recently, that most well-informed and intelligent higher ranking members of Christ's first and most powerful church, the roman catholic church, admit privately that Jesus was just a man, and nothing more. They 'deified' him in order to diseminate his teachings with more credibility (it being a time of much superstitious belief).
[edit on 1-2-2008 by jimbo999]

Ahhh...........the Catholic Church has little to do with Christianity, everything to do with Idolatry, and false worship. Praying to "saints" and "mary" is blasphemy............a direct slap in the face of Jesus.........

ah....a closer look and I think you will find that the 18000 some odd denominations are also full fledged practicing idolatresses...

Hey I know...we can all meet down in the south say in like rural Coweta County Georgia down at the mud bog, and take our statues and idol crosses and stick them up in the mud, and then get down and duke it all out right there in the mud and fight to the bloodey end in so far as who is right...that aughta settle it once and for all...after all, isn't that the way they did it thousands of years ago?
Nothing new here with religion...we need to move on to something new kids...