Interesting Place to Find a Masonic Obelisk

That is why they make google...

Here you are though:

freemasonrywatch.org...

They seem to not like Masons

I could care less though. I prefer truth. No matter who looses.

Originally posted by shotinthehead
That is why they make google...

Here you are though:

Sorry that I actually asked you to list your source, my apologies. In the future, so as not to inconvience your time with my banal inquiries, try properly quoting external sources so we do not have to request them.

freemasonrywatch.org...

They seem to not like Masons

Ah, the great and enestimable Freemasonrywatch.org, purveyor of truth and knowledge throughout the world wide web. I was hoping for a source that was not so heavily biased, but if this is the best you have to offer to support your position so be it. I have a challenge for you; try to verify the facts you unearthed on this site regarding the topic being discussed with other sites that do not posit, as their prime reason for existence, rabid anti-Masonry.

...I prefer truth...

It would seem that you do not as your source is not even accepted as viable by even some of the most hardcore anti-Masons on this board.

[edit on 22-1-2008 by AugustusMasonicus]

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
try to verify the facts you unearthed on this site regarding the topic being discussed with other sites that do not posit, as their prime reason for existence, rabid anti-Masonry.

And just where do you suggest we do our research then, the local Research Lodge? Will they let us in to read your little monitors and the like? Should we gather anti-masonic information from Masonic Sites then? What references would please you?
I hope this thread gives ATS a good idea of how bad the pack of Masons on this board are, every thread, every discussion that comes up they come pouncing on it throwing anti-this and anti-that around. It really is all about hate and discrimination with you guys isn't it, regardless of the subject.
We don't have to demonize the institutions of freemasonry, they do it themselves with little more effort on my part than a colloquial "Hey look at this obelisk".
Proove the Obelisk isn't used in Freemasonry, I know you can't proove a negative (ad nauseum), but if the Obelisk isn't used, then surely you can provide us with something here other than your brotherly word, which is worthless really in the land of the less free and unacceptable and unlearned laymen such as ourselves.
I'm sure the inverted crucifix isn't a symbol used by freemasonry either, and yet there it is right in your literature...

Must be a hell of a funeral, literally.

Has anyone responded to Twichy's post form page 2?

It's extremely interesting and I was wondering if anybody has more information on it. I found this...

It was removed to Alexandria and re-erected by a Roman architect and engineer named Pontius, B.C. 22. When it was taken down in 1879 to be brought to America, all the emblems of the builders were found in the foundation. The rough Cube and the polished Cube in pure white limestone, the Square cut in syenite, an iron Trowel, a lead Plummet, the arc of a Circle, the serpent-symbols of Wisdom, a stone Trestle-board, a stone bearing the Master's Mark, and a hieroglyphic word meaning Temple—all so placed and preserved as to show, beyond doubt, that they had high symbolic meaning. [34]Whether they were in the original foundation, or were placed there when the obelisk was removed, no one can tell. Nevertheless, they were there, concrete witnesses of the fact that the builders worked in the light of a mystical faith, of which they were emblems.

www.gutenberg.org...

Why were Masonic marks hidden on this obelisk? Were they from 22 bce or 1879 ce? (is there any way to determine the age of marks?)

And like in Twitchy's article, it concludes...

Egyptian Obelisks, H.H. Gorringe. The obelisk in Central Park, the expenses for removing which were paid by W.H. Vanderbilt, was examined by the Grand Lodge of New York, and its emblems pronounced to be unmistakably Masonic.

already answered

[edit on 23-1-2008 by Fitzgibbon]

reply to post by Fitzgibbon


Then I guess you'd go for 1879. But my question remains, why were Masons hiding symbols under an obelisk in 1879?

(I for one would be thrilled if Masons could find traces of their origins all the way back to 22 ce)

I was recently involved in a thread about the possible Masonic origins of the US dollar, and some posters believed there was absolutely no way Masons would hide symbols. It seems they did, at least in this case.

Are there any Masonic Lodge meetings within US military base in the United States? Was there in 1965 at White Sands?

There's also a time capsule in the monument that is due to be open next year.


[edit on 23/1/08 by ConspiracyNut23]

As to the source... I picked one of about 40 that said the same things.

My knowlege of the brotherhood does not stem from whack jobs on an anti mason site. I just referenced that site as it was the top selection on the list that said what I already know.

If you would like I can provide the eye witness transcript of a former 2nd level 90th degree Memphis mason to coroberate the symbolism of the obelisk.

On second thought no, hows about I leave it up to the intrepid mind to seek out.

Unlike all the in the know masons here who either do not have a clue or know and can not say, I have no such limits. The treachury done to those who spill secrets of the ancient orders from the inside is the stuff of legends, so I do not want to put anyone on the spot. No sense of you guys becoming a legend.

The sheep skin covering used by Masons is a direct line from the veil in the Temple of Solomon used to shroud the Isrealites from the Holy of Holies.

Masonic symbolism is that there is one object that is in the Holy place on their body. The golden seed comes from the holiest object... Not too hard to see where I am going nor just how literal the interpretation of the phallic symbolism of Masons, and for that matter several other orders around the world, is...

As far as conspiracies go this one is of little importance. However if a Mason is vehement about denying it there are only a few possible explinations. They do not know and refuse to look into it. They know and have an obligation to deny it. Or it is not true and they should deny it.

Problem is that if it is not true there is so much denial of every single possible hidden thing and so many direct lies put out by the group as a whole that it becomes almost laughable when they start to deny anything.

So either provide some direct proof that this Trinity site obelisk is not the work of Mason's and that the Obelisk itself is not a symbol of anything of import to a Mason and have it verfiied by the higher ups in the Brotherhood or just leave us to our follie and it will all die down.


[edit on 23-1-2008 by shotinthehead]

Originally posted by twitchy
And just where do you suggest we do our research then, the local Research Lodge?

Simple, a site that presents facts without opinion. Which would preclude Freemasonrywatch.org.

Will they let us in to read your little monitors and the like?

What 'little monitors' are you refering to? I have yet to come across anything in my Masonic journeys that is not already available online or in additional forms of media.

Should we gather anti-masonic information from Masonic Sites then?

Well, if you are indeed looking to gather anti-Masonic 'information', then by all means continue to use Freemasonrywatch.org and other sites similar to it as I am certain your raging desire for negative sterotypes will be completely satisifed.

What references would please you?

Redundant, I answered that above.

I hope this thread gives ATS a good idea of how bad the pack of Masons on this board are, every thread, every discussion that comes up they come pouncing on it throwing anti-this and anti-that around. It really is all about hate and discrimination with you guys isn't it, regardless of the subject.

The only people I see acting in a hateful manner are the ones who continue to angrily agrue their positions without substantiating them, and among their number is one 'angry hippie' (oxymoron?).

We don't have to demonize the institutions of freemasonry, they do it themselves with little more effort on my part than a colloquial "Hey look at this obelisk".

In actuallity it is more along the lines of, ''Look at this obelisk at the evil Trinity bomb site that I think may be Masonic!'', and when asked why you respond without responding.

Proove the Obelisk isn't used in Freemasonry, I know you can't proove a negative (ad nauseum),

If you know it can not be proved why even ask for proof? There is no need to be more tedious than normal.

but if the Obelisk isn't used, then surely you can provide us with something here other than your brotherly word, which is worthless really in the land of the less free and unacceptable and unlearned laymen such as ourselves.

I already did, see my above post on Napoleon and the Egyptian Revival period of the 19th century. In regards to you feeling less 'free', I am sorry to hear that. Perhaps if you stopped seeing Masons in every shadow you might get out more and experience the world like the rest of us. As to you being 'unlearned', it is incumbant upon you to correct this dire situation, I for one do not have the years necessary to dedicate to your education.

I'm sure the inverted crucifix isn't a symbol used by freemasonry either, and yet there it is right in your literature...

Disengeniousity strikes again. If you even lifted a finger to do any research on this image you would have found that they are indicating the processional configuration of a Masonic funeral. There will always be a perspective that will be viewing it from the upside down position depending on whether the formation is approaching or receding from them.

[edit on 23-1-2008 by AugustusMasonicus]

[edit on 23-1-2008 by AugustusMasonicus]

[edit on 23-1-2008 by AugustusMasonicus]

Originally posted by shotinthehead
As to the source... I picked one of about 40 that said the same things.

My knowlege of the brotherhood does not stem from whack jobs on an anti mason site. I just referenced that site as it was the top selection on the list that said what I already know.

Shocking, I never would have guessed.

If you would like I can provide the eye witness transcript of a former 2nd level 90th degree Memphis mason to coroberate the symbolism of the obelisk.

Sure, why not, post away.

On second thought no, hows about I leave it up to the intrepid mind to seek out.

*yawn*

Unlike all the in the know masons here who either do not have a clue or know and can not say, I have no such limits. The treachury done to those who spill secrets of the ancient orders from the inside is the stuff of legends, so I do not want to put anyone on the spot. No sense of you guys becoming a legend.

Since you are so unfettered, pleae, enlighten us all with your vast reserves of esoteric and Masonic knowledge.

As far as conspiracies go this one is of little importance. However if a Mason is vehement about denying it there are only a few possible explinations. They do not know and refuse to look into it. They know and have an obligation to deny it. Or it is not true and they should deny it.

I prefer, ''It is not true so I will ask you to tell me why you think it is true.'', I still await an answer on this.

So either provide some direct proof that this Trinity site obelisk is not the work of Mason's and that the Obelisk itself is not a symbol of anything of import to a Mason and have it verfiied by the higher ups in the Brotherhood or just leave us to our follie and it will all die down.

How, oh knowledgeable one, does one prove a negative? Please instruct us in this impossibility.

Originally posted by shotinthehead
The biggest problem is that most of the Masonic appologists do not actually know the secrets of their organisation. However they have the right as a Brother to use the libraries at their disposal to find out.

Recognizing that you're new and all...

The biggest problem is that all of the anti-Masons do not actually know the secrets of the organization. This is easily proven through the continued misuse of the word "secrets."

So if anyone here is one and is not defending their position from a place of inside high level knowlege you may be deluding yourself. A 3d degree master mason will not know what a 29th degree scottish mason does nor what a 9th degree york mason will nor a 90th degree memphis mason... I purposely stop at those numbers.

...and, by extrapolation, a non-Mason will not know what an Entered Apprentice knows, what a Master Mason knows, what a 32nd Degree Scottish Rite Master of the Royal Secret knows, what a York Rite Knight Templar knows, or even what the janitor of the Masonic building knows.

The point being if you are one and that is only a blue lodge then you do not know how far the rabbit hole goes. If you are one and are higher on the totem pole then you already know and you may just be muddying the waters.

The point being ... if you're not a Mason, you don't even know if there is a rabbit hole or not.

And, if you're an anti-Mason (as you are shaping up to be), then you're nothing but a cut and paste hack.

Being able to press CTRL+C and CTRL+V does not in any way make you an authority on Masonry.

Your pal,
Meat.

Originally posted by mmmeat
Recognizing that you're new and all...

Yeah, he signed up a whole fortnight after you.

Mod Note: One Liners -- Please Review

[edit on 23-1-2008 by chissler]

I have yet to see anything new in all these arguments. Even my own words will not alter the facts surrounding the issues here.

The whole thing to think of here is if you are one and you do not know your own organization how do you plan to defend it? I would hope that the all knowing enlightened ones here would actually stop and wonder on their own with their own minds.

I laugh at the predictable way this whole topic has gone. In fact I have been around reading all this crap for a long while now without ever joining or wanting to. However the shere ignorence, whether purposeful or in fact, of the appologists is too painful to watch.

I defy any of you to really look into your own organization. You either have not or you will never admit the truth of anything presented. So why present anything? That would be a waste of time.

This is why I can laugh at the foolishness of a for or against position. Those "in the know" do not know or will not say and those not "in the know" can not know... Right?

Does anyone see the stupidity of the arguements? Anyone see the uselessness of the fight?

So attack me if you wish but I will say what I know first hand and will laugh when you posture and get ruffled.

I could care less if you are all Mason's. However I do ever so hate the hypocrit in their hypocrisy.

Common sense should be the name of the debate but is not now and will never be. Anti Mason's should realize not all that hides is a Mason and not all that hints is a fact. Mason's should know that not all that is hidden is secret and not all that one denies is a untrue.

Oh god oh god is there no help for the widows son?



[edit on 23-1-2008 by shotinthehead]

Originally posted by shotinthehead
Let us also not forget that if one looks from the top of the obelisk down one will see a square and they usually are set inside a circle. This symbolism of the square and circle is highly occultic.

Why is this important?

I was just asking myself that same question. The answer, of course, it that it's not.

Here is a snippet I saw a while ago and went out looking for just now:

There are four major obelisks that were erected by Freemasons in the 19th century.

The first obelisk was brought to France from Thebes, Egypt, and was placed in Paris's Revolution Square the site of mass public guillotining during the Mason lead Bloody French Revolution.

First off, there's no such thing as a 'major obelisk,' anymore than there's such a thing as a 'captain obelisk,' 'colonel obelisk' or even 'seaman obelisk.'

That doesn't mean that there aren't private or general obelisks, however.

One thing that you're failing to understand in your flurry of cut-and-paste - that even I know - is that there's a whole lot of french Masonry that's not recognized or considered regular by general Freemasonry.

Further, while there were certainly Freemasons in the french revolution, it wasn't a 'Mason lead Bloody French Revolution' by any stretch of the imagination.

And, while it's probably obvious to everyone who read your quote, it is worth pointing out that the Masons neither erected nor moved the Obelisk of Luxor. It was, simply, 'the french.'

The second obelisk was brought to England from Alexandria, Egypt, and was placed next to the Thames river in London.

While it's been said that the transportation was paid for by a certain Freemason, Cleopatra's Needle was not erected by Freemasons. Your source is incorrect.

The third obelisk was brought to America in 1881 from Alexandria, Egypt, and was placed in Central Park in New York City.

Yes it was ... and a Freemason was in charge of the disassembly and reassembly of the obelisk. And there was even a Masonic Cornerstone Ceremony for this one.

ooOOOooh.

The fourth obelisk is the Washington Monument, built to commemorate our First President, George Washington(who was a Free Mason). In light of the symbols which we have just studied, which have been built into the layout of Government Center. The Washington Monument was constructed by Masons, according to Masonic tradition, as a symbol that this country was controlled by Freemasonry from the very beginning.

What a load of hooey. "In light of the" pantload attempted to be foisted on unsuspecting cut-and-paste hacks, it comes as no surprise that this little tidbit might have gone unchallenged.

Of course the stone monument was constructed by masons! OPERATIVE masons! The same freakin' guys who build retaining walls from stone and - occasionally - host TV shows on the DIY channel! You sure as heck wouldn't want an electrician erecting a 555 foot tall building! Duh!

Sometimes I swear I just don't understand how one of you silly antis can't just pick up a book or at least understand the difference between speculative and operative Masonry. I knew the difference - and that was before I read Freemasonry for Dummies!

Your pal,
Meat.

Originally posted by shotinthehead
I have yet to see anything new in all these arguments.

And yet you continue to post them. Well ... cut and paste them.

The whole thing to think of here is if you are one and you do not know your own organization how do you plan to defend it?

The whole thing to think of here is that you're (quite obviously) NOT one, so how could you possibly know anything at all about the fraternity ... much less know of a way to attack it that's based on actual fact?

I defy any of you to really look into your own organization.

I'll say it again: Dude. You're not a member of the fraternity. You have no idea at all what it is you're talking about.

This is why I can laugh at the foolishness of a for or against position. Those "in the know" do not know

According to who? Someone who doesn't know?

those not "in the know" can not know... Right?

Pretty much it in a nutshell. Not sure why you're not understanding the words typed right there on your own keyboard.

Does anyone see the stupidity of the arguements?

I know I do. I'm sure plenty of others do, too. But, hey, don't let that stop you from posting your little - as you say - 'arguements.'

So attack me if you wish but I will say what I know first hand

Okay, I call. What do you know? You haven't posted anything that comes from a position of knowledge yet. All you've done is cut-and-paste incorrect anti-Mason rhetoric. Let's see your cards. Put 'em out on the table. Let's see what you 'know first hand.'

I could care less if you are all Mason's.

I call BS. If you 'could care less' you wouldn't be posting. Duh.

Common sense should be the name of the debate but is not now and will never be.

...and yet, here you are.

Oh god oh god is there no help for the widows son?

Whether there is or not ... well, even I know what you wrote is incorrect. maybe you should try cutting and pasting from a different source.

Your pal,
Meat.

The cry of cut and paste by you strikes as insincere. If you had anything to rebuff the "obviously" horrid cut and paste job that I am doing then you would not spend all your time decrying the "obvious" C&P method and more time denying the validity of what I write.

The most that you can do is cut apart the only actual cut and paste that I did. Those were not my words cut and pasted.

I do so hope that you will try to pull your head out of the sand enough to have a look around for yourself.

You do not even have to answer me back and say that I was right. I could care less what your official public persona deems worht saying. It is likely one of two things anyway a lie or ignorence of the fact.

Kind of a damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Let us spend less time attacking me and more time in personal reflection into the greater mysteries you either know nothing about or hide.

Your choice.

[edit on 23-1-2008 by shotinthehead]

[edit on 23-1-2008 by shotinthehead]

Originally posted by shotinthehead
The cry of cut and paste by you strikes as insincere. If you had anything to rebuff the "obviously" horrid cut and paste job that I am doing then you would not spend all your time decrying the "obvious" C&P method and more time denying the validity of what I write.

What validity have you posted? You have not posited any opinion of your own relating to the topic at hand, instead you have only excised text from a highly specious and inflammatory site and reposted on this forum. What contribution other then confrontation were you hoping to generate?

If you spent any amount of time researching past threads in this forum you would have discovered that the site you rely so heavily upon for your opinion is not one that offers fact without distortion. I pose to you the same question as I did to twitchy; What makes the Trinity Mememorial Masonic? Can you answer this in your own words without resorting to extracting corrupt and incorrect data from freemasonrywatch.org?



[edit on 23-1-2008 by AugustusMasonicus]

Originally posted by twitchy
I'm sure the inverted crucifix isn't a symbol used by freemasonry either, and yet there it is right in your literature...

twitchy,

The image you show is, to be sure, NOT a Crucifix but in fact a Passion Cross as there is no Corpus Christi (Body of Christ) represented on it.

What you are failing to recognize in that diagram is LOOKING DOWN upon the setting of the funeral. Just like looking down at a map on a table or a set of blue-prints. It is showing (with a Cross being chosen...for whatever reason..to represent the casketed remains of a deceased Brother) the procession and/or formation either at the grave or in the church/chapel/funeral home, whatever.

It is indicated this way because the body is being carried foot first, head last.

This practice no doubt came from the tradition of the Episcopal or Anglican Church who, of course, got the practice from the Roman Church, of bringing the bodies of lay-people into the building foot first, and taking it out the same way. (Priest, Bishops, Nuns, and other Holy People being carried head first)

If the diagram were really an inverted Cross, it would indicate that the Chaplain was up in the air (assuming the bottom of the cross was sticking up) See what I mean?

And I see your point and why it would be confusing to a non-member. Chiefly because, well, my Jurisdiction doesn't do it that way. The Chaplain is at the head of the casket, not the foot.

There is no Masonry, but MANY Masonries (or is it Masonrys?)

Must be a hell of a funeral, literally.

Could be indeed. I once heard a fellow mourner say that a wedding and a funeral were essentially the same except that the funeral had one less drunk.

reply to post by shotinthehead


I am still struggling to see anything innovative or new in the anti-mason arguments. Time after time, thread after thread, it ends up coming down to the same basic methodology:

(1) The assertion of symbolism which supposedly "shows" that something is either (a) masonic or (b) is masonic AND is some type of negative adjective (bad, evil, etc.). The source for such claims invariably come from the fact that the object in question appears somewhere in the masonic literature. Why people continue to make an argument from this perspective is perplexing - as large and encompassing as the masonic literature is, I am quite sure that you will find just about everything you can imagine mentioned in it. But just because text written by a masonic author mentions some shape, object, or other item does not indicate the item is masonic. The US national anthem mentions the word "star." Does this mean that the stars in the heavens and any star on any item anywhere is a national symbol for the United States? Of course not. So why do people apply this sort of logic to masonry?

(2) The assertion that there is some sort of - for lack of a better phrase - "secret cabal" involved in masonry that is always characterized as being "high level masons." I have never seen anyone claim what this cabal does, only that they are secret and are "high level." Any attempt by masons to claim that this not true results in it being said that mason don't know what's going on in masonry. Masons then claim that they would be in the cabal because the 3rd degree is the highest degree. The people who propose this theory then claim masons don't know what they are talking about and only 33rd degree masons are in this cabal. The 33rd degree masons on this board tell them there is no such thing. Then the theorists tell us that it's only people above the 33rd degree, even though no one can find or produce evidence that there exists any numeral degree above this in regular masonry. To top it all off, the people who assert this theory aren't even masons and somehow know about this secret cabal.

Except for some cases of (1) above, the sources for all these claims are more often than not from a sundry and varied list of anti-masonic websites. The anti-masons claim this is "proof" of their claim, although such claims cannot be verified or seen in any other arena of discussion. They claim that they just follow "truth," and the "truth" just so happens to coincide with whatever particular theory they are pushing.

Its one, huge argument circle. And here we go...again.

Originally posted by mmmeat
at least understand the difference between speculative and operative Masonry.

As I said before I am no Layman. You're a Blue lodger, aren't you? By all means educate us on the difference between all the Royal Arches and Brazen Serpents then.

You will notice that I am not replying to anything. There is no point as I have already said.

I met a man one time who was a 90th degree memphis mason, an occultist, a member of the illuminati, a catholic priest and a satanic high preist.

Freemasonary is but one of the many heads of this beast.

Although I wonder if anyone has looked into the round building in Switzerland? Does anyone know what three global bodies are housed there?

The U.N international headquarter, The World bank and The true Master Lodge of Freemasonary. Why the blank would freemasons be in such a place?

I could care less what Mason's think of me but the symbols they employ speak of a common mindset.

For anyone to say the higher ups are not in a "secret cabal" has never looked into the Bavarian Illuminati (started May 1st 1776 in Bavaria). Though disbanded they still managed to redirect the course of Freemasonary back to it's intended goals.

Why post what I can not prove? Was I not told to use my own words? Can any lawyer out there win a case based on the testimony of one man? Such tactics are childish. I know full well the quoted text came from a disreputable site. It does prove to my friends how easy it is to muddy the waters though.

Oh and the muddying was not from me.

Having been a moderator and Super Moderator on the net for a while now it is fun to watch the same conversations and twists of logic play out over and over.