Interesting Place to Find a Masonic Obelisk

reply to post by twitchy


Thank you for your interpretation of the T&C twitchy but this isn't a Masonic forum. It's a forum that many members happen to be Masons. Many others aren't.

Now, can we discuss this topic civilly?

Originally posted by intrepid
this isn't a Masonic forum.

If that's an assessment, I couldn't agree more... or less.

Just a speculation on why Oppenheimer chose the name Trinity for the site, considering the quote he used from the Bhagavad gita, I think this is interesting...

en.wikipedia.org...
In 1962, General Groves wrote to Oppenheimer about the origin of the name, asking if he had chosen it because it was a name common to rivers and peaks in the West and would not attract attention. "I did suggest it, but not on [that] ground... Why I chose the name is not clear, but I know what thoughts were in my mind. There is a poem of John Donne, written just before his death, which I know and love. From it a quotation: 'As West and East / In all flatt Maps—and I am one—are on, / So death doth touch the Resurrection.'" ("Hymn to God My God, in My Sicknesses"). Oppenheimer continued, "That still does not make a Trinity, but in another, better known devotional poem Donne opens, 'Batter my heart, three person'd God;—.' Beyond this, I have no clues whatever." (Holy Sonnets XIV).[4]

www.websters-online-dictionary.org...
In Hinduism, the Trimurti (also called the Hindu trinity) are the three most important gods; in some narratives they were born from the world egg laid by Ammavaru at the beginning of time.
Brahma - the Creator
Shiva - the Destroyer
Vishnu - the Maintainer
The trimurti itself is conceived of as a deity and artistically represented as a three-faced human figure. Brahma is no longer as relevant as he once was, some would say the all-in-one goddess Devi has replaced him.

The Creator, the Destroyer, and the Maintainer perhaps a befitting metaphor for the birth of nuclear weapons. Then of course the Masonic Symbolism also involves the Trinity, considering there's a Masonic Obelisk standing there on the site, I'd say that's a likely attribution.

Here's a great High Res pic of the obelisk...
parkerlab.bio.uci.edu...

Apparently it attracts alot of unwanted attention as well...
www.saffo.com...

The site is located near the 33rd Parallel

Still can't find any references to the actual erection or dedication of the Obelisk at Trinity, still looking... Anybdoy know what Lodges would have been in the White Sands area circa 1960's?

Edit:
There hasn't been much a response to these posts from the more learned...

Originally posted by jaamaan
Well it is pretty clear that masons use the obelisk for several ritual uses.

granite obelisk was placed by the Supreme Council, 33°, to commemorate our Order's Bicentennial.
www.scottishrite.org...

Any of you intimately familiar with the symbolism employed by the Supreme Council? An Obelisk in a Masonic Order not of your own could explain alot of this debate.

Originally posted by the titor experience
A Masonic author both admit that pillars of the obelisk were used to represent sex [Hayward,Symbolic Masonry: An Interpretation of the Three Degrees, Washington, D.C., Masonic Service Association of the United States, 1923, p. 206-7 and Rollin C. Blackmer, The Lodge and the Craft: A Practical Explanation of the Work of Freemasonry, St. Louis, The Standard Masonic Publishing Co., 1923, p. 94]

Several other published works make similar claims, I assume these are viable and reliable sources, so the Obelisk is, by all I've measured, used in Freemasonry. Quite Commonly.

Originally posted by twitchy
Yurts or whatever you guys want us to call them here in my own hometown...Vance Memorial...

Purely by cooincidence of course, Zebulon Vance was a Freemason from the Mt. Hermon Lodge #118. I bet you have one in your town too, and I bet if you dig really hard you may find Freemasonry linked to it.

Got one in your town? Who erected it?

[edit on 28-1-2008 by twitchy]

Originally posted by twitchy

Got one in your town?

Perth Western Australia,Kings Park overlooks our city and the Swan River 3 pics down.

I remember laying a wreath 35 odd years ago there while in the cub scouts.

Some more pics here

Who erected it?

Hmmm

I have no idea on how to go about finding out?

Originally posted by twitchy
Any of you intimately familiar with the symbolism employed by the Supreme Council? An Obelisk in a Masonic Order not of your own could explain alot of this debate.

Not only am I intimately familiar with the symbolism employed by the Supreme Council of the Scottish Rite, but as a ritual enthusiast and collector, I have current as well as older versions of the rituals of all the degrees, as well as several rituals of other Supreme Councils besides the one in D.C.

(Info about the current rituals of the Southern Jurisdiction)

www.srmason-sj.org...

Also, this handy Ritual Monitor is now available (anyone may purchase one, not just Scottish Rite Masons) and contains full explanations of the degrees, symbolism, etc.

www.scottishritestore.org...

(For those across the pond)

www.lewismasonic.com...

I went through Pages 105-133 are entitled "Scottish Rite Symbols" and show each of the symbols of each of the degrees. There are a couple of Egyptian symbols, but not one obelisk.

The book is over 900 pages long and there doesn't appear to be an obelisk in sight. Sorry.

Other links that might be of interest.

www.aasrvalleyofjax.org...

utahscottishrite.org...

reply to post by twitchy


I can probably dissect this a little more, and perhaps I will if time permits today, but in the meantime...

Links above notwithstanding (I haven't had time to properly investigate them yet), has it occurred to anyone that the site name, "Trinity," could have something to do with the fact that there was a compound created when the bomb exploded called trinitite?

Just food for thought; I admittedly have no info to back up that idea, it just occurred to me when I was reading about the site.

Trinitite; Trinity. *shrugs* Makes sense to me.

I'll look into the links twitchy has posted about Oppenheimer and that may disprove my idea, but it certainly seems reasonable.

[edit on 1/28/08 by The Axeman]

reply to post by The Axeman


twitchy's link stating that the site was named in homage to John Donne is factual.

Originally posted by Beelzebubba
It derives from Donnes Number XIV of the Holy Sonnnets:
Batter My Heart

Batter my heart, three-personed God, for you
As yet but knock, breathe, shine, and seek to mend;
That I may rise, and stand, o'erthrow me, and bend
Your force to break, blow, burn, and make me new.
I, like an usurped town, to another due,
Labour to admit you, but Oh, to no end.
Reason, your viceroy in me, me should defend,
But is captived, and proves weak or untrue.
Yet dearly I love you, and would be loved fain,
But am betrothed unto your enemy:
Divorce me, untie or break that knot again,
Take me to you, imprison me, for I,
Except you enthrall me, never shall be free,
Nor ever chaste, except you ravish me.

Link

A great book on the subject is Peter H. Wyden's Day One.
I believe the book was also made into a TV movie.

On a related note consider this:

"In connection with the choice of this locality (Eniwetok) for the first test of the Hydrogen bomb the American author and painter Gilbert Wilson noted a strange coincidence. While he was reading Moby Dick it struck him that "only a century after Herman Melville wrote his great book our own American atonic engineers unwittingly selected almost the very spot in the broad Pacific, some thousand miles south-east off the coast of Japan, where the fictional Pequod [...] was rammed and sunk by the White Whale. ... Melville had Ahab describe the Whale with an image remarkably similar to the conventional symbol of the atom used by artists, "O trebly hooped and welded hip of power!"

Jungk

Synchronicity.








[edit on 28/1/2008 by Beelzebubba]

Originally posted by Beelzebubba
twitchy's link that states that the site was named in homage to John Donne is factual.

Well, while "factual" may be a relative term to some, to me it is not. If I may quote Twitchy's source:

Source

The exact origin of the name is unknown, but it is often attributed to laboratory leader J. Robert Oppenheimer as a reference to the poetry of John Donne.

(emphasis mine)

Am I saying NO WAY was the site named "in homage to John Donne?" No. I'm simply saying that the correlation between the term "trinitite" and the name of the site, "Trinity," is an interesting one.

I'm in the process of investigating some of twitchy's other sources, and it's not looking good for him. He has this annoying habit of using google searches to back up a claim, which is retarded at best, so I'm not counting those. I'm looking into the others, and it really seems to me that no one cares about this stone monument. I have pored over several articles, even a 300+ page book about the white sands monument... in that 300+ pages, the word "obelisk" appears only once, thus:

Source

On the occasion of the 30th anniversary of the nuclear age (1975), the Army and park service prepared a plaque for a stone obelisk constructed near Ground Zero that noted Trinity's national historic landmark status.

That's it. That's the only mention of the obelisk in 317 pages of history on the White Sands National Monument.

So, whatever Oppenheimer's reason for naming the site "trinity" it's really of no real consequence; the only person who seems to care about this particular stack of lava rocks is Twitchy.

Also, it has been demonstrated, unless you care to object, that the obelisk in question is NOT Masonic, as was twitchy's original assertion as fact.

To label his argument asinine would be to elevate its status, in my mind.

I've seen many of your posts, beelzebubba, and you have my respect. If you have evidence to either back up twitchy's claim or refute my own, I'd like to see it. Something besides wikipedia, which anyone can edit, would be great.

Regards.

P.S. The quote that attributes the naming of the site as described in wiki is:

Richard Rhodes, The Making of the Atomic Bomb (New York: Simon and Shuster, 1986). Quotes regarding the naming of the test from p. 571-572.

So, the question is where did Richard Rhodes get that information, and why isn't it reliable? If it were, perhaps the wiki article would not be prefaced with a disclaimer regarding the naming of the site? I don't have the book in question to get the context from pp. 571-572, so I can't really speak to it.

Just tossing around ideas; I'm still in the process of investigating. I have come to no solid conclusions yet, other than that the obelisk in question is in no way, shape, form, or fashion explicitly Masonic -- which was twitchy's whole point.

[edit on 1/28/08 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by The Axeman
I don't have the book in question to get the context from pp. 571-572, so I can't really speak to it.

1. Go to the "search inside this book" on amazon, here.

2. Type in "trinity" in the search function. Listing 7 and 8 will give you links to the needed page.

7. on Page 571:
"... event and its designation therefore a name that history might remember . Oppenheimer coded the test and the test site Trinity. ..."
8. on Page 572:
"... "That still does not make a Trinity," Oppenheimer's letter to Groves goes on, "but in another, better known devotional poem Donne opens, `Batter my heart, three person'd ..."

where there's a will, there's a way...


[edit on 28/1/08 by ConspiracyNut23]

reply to post by The Axeman



Hi Axeman,

You are correct. The only source I have is Rhodes as well in his Making of the Atomic Bomb. Apparently Oppenheimer gave a lecture at the MIT on November 25 1947 in which he made this remark as well. It was titled "Physics in the Contemporary World."

I am searching for an online transcript of the lecture at the moment and am not having much luck.


[edit on 28/1/2008 by Beelzebubba]

reply to post by gps777


Source

At dawn on April 25 each year, Kings Park is more than a bushland reserve, The cenotaph at its heart becomes the focus for the annual Anzac Day dawn Service. Thousands of Western Australians gather to pay their respects to The men and women who died in their country's service. The cenotaph was unveiled in 1929 and the centenary of the founding of the colony was Celebrated by planting an avenue of red-flowering gums along Fraser Avenue.

Cenotaph:
–noun

A sepulchral monument erected in memory of a deceased person whose body is buried elsewhere.

Here's a better view of it:

The caption on the first picture reads: "The Western Australian War Memorial overlooks the Swan River, Perth and takes it's design from the AIF Divisional Memorials in France & Belgium."

Now then, I think it could be more effectively argued that Christians erected this particular monument, so are all obelisks Christian? Hmm?

Another on the grounds:


AIF Memorials in France:


First Division Memorial


Third Division Memorial


Fourth Division Memorial


Fifth Division memorial

So far as I can tell, none of these are Masonically connected in any way. The are memorials, or cenotaphs, in remembrance of Australian military personnel that have lost their lives in various conflicts. Australians erected these monuments... so, are all obelisks Australian? French?

Are you beginning to see the absurdity of the OP's position?

Another interesting oservation: We cannot logically conclude at this point that these monuments are anything but war memorials erected, ostensibly by the government of Australia and/or France and Belgium. However, on each of the monuments, this insignia appears:



Well, how about that! A sun behind the crown. Now, what was I saying earlier about obelisks in general?

So even though the applications are varied and they are placed by all kinds of people for all kinds of reasons, the symbolism attached seems to carry over and is usually applicable to whatever the obelisk commemorates; the Light of Truth, the Light of Freedom, the Light of Knowledge and Wisdom; you get the idea. Masonic or non-Masonic really has no bearing on the obelisk itself, as a symbol.

Hence, if the obelisk in question has no insignia or visible markings/writing saying "I am MASONIC," then it stands to reason that it is not, however badly people would like to think that it is.

Beelzebubba: I'll get back to your post as soon as I have the time; I have several irons in several fires at the moment.

reply to post by ConspiracyNut23


Awesome man, thanks!

[edit on 1/28/08 by The Axeman]

Looked at the ones in the test range and the other stone ones at the beginning. Its pretty obvious to me, and I know there are many of these around. The ones at the test sit end others at the beginning are sloppy natural stone work and it doesn't even look like a lackey for a brick worker put them together. This looks like park worker grade construction to me. I mean really. someone is setting corners like that? Can a real mason find out who did this work and loan them some books and tools please.

reply to post by Illahee

The appearance is intentional, it is made from black lava rock which is black and has a rough texture.

Yes the appearance of the stone is fine. Its the quality of the work that I questioned. Who would admit to that quality of work? Look at real masonry. It isn't done like that. This is a parks dept job. It looks close so props there but a working mason or freemason probably would avoid being tied to that sort of work. This is like you do in the back yard for a waterfall or barbecue. No cornerstones, no baseline....

Originally posted by Illahee
Yes the appearance of the stone is fine. Its the quality of the work that I questioned. Who would admit to that quality of work? Look at real masonry. It isn't done like that. This is a parks dept job. It looks close so props there but a working mason or freemason probably would avoid being tied to that sort of work. This is like you do in the back yard for a waterfall or barbecue. No cornerstones, no baseline....

Actually, it appears to be properly constructed, square and straight. Not sure what you're talking about.

Your pal,
Meat.

Originally posted by intrepid
Thank you for your interpretation of the T&C twitchy but this isn't a Masonic forum. It's a forum that many members happen to be Masons. Many others aren't.

Now THAT is a refreshing statement. Although I have made it myself more than a dozen times in this forum.

This ISN'T a Mason forum. We are allowed to discuss Masonry, and shouldn't have to have our threads buckle under the weight of endless 'anti-mason' rhetoric. It's tiresome.

I can't be the only person who finds the Masons desperation and pack-mentallity a little grating... this thread would have ended many pages ago if they weren't on such a vendetta to 'conquer' threads. Instead of adding their opinion, voicing their disagreement etc. they pummel the thread to death

I honestly don't see anyone BUT Masons participating in this behavior. (err... and Mason wannabes I should add.)

This thread is just one big stinky sign-post of Masonic protectionism and overkill at this point. Neither the OP nor the Masons are making any progress.

/2 cents

[edit on 28-1-2008 by NewWorldOver]

Originally posted by twitchy
Brothers?
2d.) Forum Gangs: You will not engaged in an organized collaboration with other members to disrupt thread topics or interrupt the flow of normal collaborative discussion. Doing so will result in immediate termination of posting privileges.

I hate to say it... but judging by the behavior of the Masons in this forum in light of that rule, the whole lot of them should have been banned along time ago... it's one thing to add your input to a thread, it's another to doggy-pile a thread for 15+ pages for the sake of killing it.

Clear pack-behavior and bullying, and I encourage Masons to keep it up

Originally posted by NewWorldOver
this thread would have ended many pages ago if they weren't on such a vendetta to 'conquer' threads. Instead of adding their opinion, voicing their disagreement etc. they pummel the thread to death

Hmm.

- Derailing the thread off topic again in order to bash people who don't agree with you? Check.
- Continuing to post to bait people thereby ensuring the thread never ends? Check.
- Accusing everyone who disagrees with you as being a "mason" and "pummeling" a thread? Check.

Originally posted by NewWorldOver
I honestly don't see anyone BUT Masons participating in this behavior. (err... and Mason wannabes I should add.)

Oh really? I see someone else that's not a mason doing all those things.

Oh, the irony. The sheer irony.

Ahem

One last time. Stay on topic please. the sniping back and forth will cease now.

Thanks
FredT, Moderator

Originally posted by twitchy
Any of you intimately familiar with the symbolism employed by the Supreme Council? An Obelisk in a Masonic Order not of your own could explain alot of this debate.

I responded to this question directly several posts ago and twitch apparently does not like the fact that I know what I'm talking about, as he has (just like in the last 15 pages or so) rudely ignored the answer.

But for the edificaton of those actually interested in learning, rather than conjecture, I wanted to add that I took the book with me today since I had almost five hours on good ol' U.S. Interstate 55 with someone else doing the driving and I went through every page.

As amazing as it may seem....NO obelisks.

And, as I pointed out, this is an OFFICIAL publication of the Supreme Council (the very S.C. that twitchy asked about above) I would further point out (as I said previously) ANYONE can purchase the book. It's not cheap, by any means, but you don't have to be a Mason to buy it. (Secret Society, indeed)

Oh, wait. I'll bet they're covering something up because they're Masons and hence liars and/or disinformation agents.

"round and round she goes....where she stops nobody knows!"

Nothing like a late-night exercise in futility, huh?

[edit on 28-1-2008 by senrak]

Originally posted by NewWorldOver
but judging by the behavior of the Masons in this forum in light of that rule, the whole lot of them should have been banned along time ago...

You'd like that, wouldn't you?

Imagine, being banned from a forum whose mantra is "deny ignorance" for demanding that people who post things as fact actually offer something of substance to back up their claims -- i.e. denying ignorance.



I notice that you have nothing to say in regard to the numerous posts that have been made in this thread outlining the facts about obelisks, and more importantly, the FACT that the "obelisk" referenced in Twitchy's original post is not Masonic at all.

Now, would you like to offer some evidence to show that the monument is indeed Masonic, or are you just trolling and joining in in the ever honorable fight against the evil Masons and their plots to "pummel" all threads and erect all monuments on the face of the Earth?

I already know the answer, because if you had anything you would have posted it by now.

LMFAO @ us "bullying" anyone. Just because you guys are incapable of decent research and constantly get your arses handed to you in debates on the subject doesn't mean we're ganging up on you; it simply means that you're a sore loser and must resort to personal attacks and whining about the bad ol' Masons mistreating you when you lose an argument.



Get over it. Get some facts, do some decent research, or be prepared to keep getting smacked down in here, just like you would if you posted bollocks on any other forum on ATS.

I get tired of people who can't properly debate crying because we actually know how. It's on you to post intelligently, it's not on us to dumb down.

[edit on 1/28/08 by The Axeman]