[HOAX]Michael Horns Billy Meier photos[HOAX] from C2C tonight

Based on my reading of the emails between HornDog and Lear on the IIGSWest website, (with Derek being CC'd), it's clear why Lear is making the statements he's expressed here - he's parroting the nonsense, lies and fabrications he's being fed by Horn-O, almost verbatim. Lear is essentially acting as Meier's sock puppet. How revealing! Thanks for posting that stuff, Derek.

The truth of the matter is that both Jeff Ritzmann, Steve Biedny and all the rest of the people attempting to debunk the Billy Meiers photos have not been able to do so.

There have been some feeble, amateurish attempts to discredit the photos but none that past muster by any informed technical expert.

The attacks on Billy Meier are the manifestation of ignorance and fear and are based on those same things.

No person on the planet earth has ever been able to duplicate any models of the Billy Meiers flying saucers including and particularly the wedding cake. (With the exception, of course, of the sports model at S-4 which according to Lazar was identical to the one of the Meier photographed saucers.)

Wild, unsupported allegations' regarding 'depth of field' and statements like "I've clearly shown, in the photo I debunked, the black cloth that the "light fixture/ship was propped on, as well as the fact that there are no light reflections on the cars beneath it" which have, in fact, no supporting evidence.

In addition, the "Image Analysts"/debunkers don't seem be able to debate like gentlemen and continually resort to insults such as:

"ANY yutz with functioning eyes and brain can take one look" (David Biedny)

"Only the most gullible yokels find this "case" to be compelling" (David Biedny)

"…you'd have to be stupid to find this image convincing." (David Biedny)

"…but there's no fool like an old fool." (David Biedny)

"Give me a f&*$^ break!" (MANNYP4)

"By arguing with morons" (jritzmann)

"You're not getting another goddamned reply." (jritzmann)

"I'm done with his sorry ass and this case" (jritzmann)

"…this case is hogwash...you're an idiot" (jritzmann)

"They want to lap up the pap spewed by the son of the jetman?" (David Biedny)

"…anyone putting any stock in this crap is an idiot." (jritzmann)

"I cannot believe the balls these people got." (jritzmann)

"My work in debunking this crap is well known." (jritzmann)

"…stop being such a B.S'.er." (jritzmann)


You will also notice that not one Mod caught or objected to any of the statements above.

Think there might be a little 'bias' here?

I am not here defending the Meiers case. I doubt if it will ever be proven or disproven. It will never be disproven if jritzmann and davidbiedny have anything to do with it.

I am here to state an opinion and my opinion is this:

The Billy Meier case was true. All of the photos were real. All of the flying saucers were real. Billy met with extraterrestrials who took him for a ride into outer space.

The Meier case, since its very beginning, has been the target of one of the biggest disinformation efforts ever launched by the U.S. Government.

reply to post by johnlear


You my dear sir, have far too much time on your hands....enjoy your retirement.
(p.s. this case is garbage. EDITED: to conform with T&C) Have a nice day!

[edit on 27-1-2008 by 1nL1ghtened]

Mod Note: One Line Post – Please Review This Link.



[edit on 27-1-2008 by elevatedone]

"Give me a f&*$^ break!" (MANNYP4)

Well in reality saying that is not an insult to anyone direclty but just an expression to illustrate frustration, and how is it that you are talking about insults (you sometimes are charming yourself) and at the same time you are defending MH in some cases? The master of insults which was banned from here because of it. Twisted logic!

I just want to say that if someone believe in Meier then ok, but to demand that we need to go to Switzerland (when you haven't gone yourself?) is just plain absurd. Also saying that the skeptics and experts haven't debunked Meier’s photos because they haven't duplicated them is just the worst logic anyone can have and it puts you in the same boat as MH. What kind of logic is that? Let me see if I understand this, as long as you don't duplicate Jeff's photos then according to your logic they must be real? Does that make sense in your world?

That's why a lot of us keep posting here because it's so absurd that it even makes the case funny somehow.

Coming here and posting that the case is real just because you believe so (practically that's how you sound) is not cutting it to anyone. David and Jeff discovered and proved that the photos they analyzed from Meier’s are all small models and fraud. May I remind you that they are experts in the field of photographic! Are you? Then why instead of saying that they haven't debunked the photos because "they haven't duplicated them" you just prove to us by illustrating the material you have that proves otherwise? David Beiny is an expert and showed us with proof may I add that the photo he analyzed is not what Meier says it was, can you debunk David’s analysis? Or do you even have any knowledge of it? I thought so!
And for the sake of argument what are you really getting for saying no one has duplicated Meier’s photos? I know that MH and you are buddies now but geez! I don’t think MH likes to share $! j/k

Ben Harris reproduced the Meier's photos and effect 1986-1990 (page 10)
www.skeptics.com.au...

www.theyfly.com... meier
www.figu.org... duplicated 1996

So much for "they haven't been duplicated". The first one shows the effect of how it was done, and the second one is the same exact thing meier produced. It’s just trickery and false perspective angles.

Note: Does anyone else notice the lack of comments or responses to:
The fake ufo photo (ring of fire) that is being sold (new dvd)!! When it clearly shows that it’s just a man in the middle rotating a fire object over his head!! Thanks Dereck


[edit on 27-1-2008 by MANNYP4]

Btw, That wcufo picture from jeff was what he posted to let us know how the progress of the model he was making was going, but of course you and MH always fail to mention that.

It's not that hard to find this information in the thread where it was posted. Jeff never mentioned that he finished the model yet and he never said that this picture was ready for comparison. IT WAS A PICTURE HE DID TO SHOW US THE PROGRESS OF THE MODEL HE WAS MAKING!!! GOT IT!!

Dereck, it's not the first and will not be the last time MH lies to justify the mistakes, also beware that he had manipulated and deleted wrong information on his own sites (the so called prophecies).

Originally posted by MANNYP4
Note: Does anyone else notice the lack of comments or responses to:
The fake ufo photo (ring of fire) that is being sold (new dvd)!! When it clearly shows that it’s just a man in the middle rotating a fire object over his head!! Thanks Dereck

[edit on 27-1-2008 by MANNYP4]

Yes. Thats typical for the camp. After making the duplication, the discussion was not about that anymore, but making yet *another* duplication.

What was ignored, was my return challenge to submit one of Meier's originals along with mine to a 3rd party, independent analysis organization. I made that challenge at the time I finished and posted mine...and it has to this day, gone unanswered.

That says it all.

And, please do excuse my less then professional attitude about this case when dealing with the lunatic fringe. I think I've remained incredibly composed all facts considered.And, if we'd like to post every Michael Horn expletive and personal attack, I'd be happy to do so.

I'm content to leave it where I have for several months, until the C2C show...in the the realm of some folk's delusional fantasies, whilst we all move on.

[edit on 27-1-2008 by jritzmann]

Originally posted by MANNYP4

"Give me a f&*$^ break!" (MANNYP4)

This was a deliberate attempt to circumvent the T&C's.

Shame on you.

Alright... back on topic and it will be done in a civil manner, GOT IT.

No more discussing the other members, and who is or is not breaking the T&C's.

We'll Moderate the board.

Thank You.

Civil Discussion

Originally posted by johnlear
I am here to state an opinion and my opinion is this:

The Billy Meier case was true. All of the photos were real. All of the flying saucers were real. Billy met with extraterrestrials who took him for a ride into outer space.

The Meier case, since its very beginning, has been the target of one of the biggest disinformation efforts ever launched by the U.S. Government.

Partial quote.

So with such displeasure with Billy Meier, he must have something to
rattle the big guns in the science labs. Or the people piloting those
saucers around Switzerland. Darn, we have to go to a new training area.


His fuzzy moving dark blobs, on video no less, are not bugs so that
must up set people. Going slow or in hover a high voltage craft will
ionize the air giving off UV radiation.

Photos of non bug high voltage craft in hover.

So looking back, not seeing Bill Meier videos except for a few on
youtube recently, I'd say he caught some slow moving saucers.

Secret Space had numerous photo examples of saucers over Europe
in various years. Bill Meier film footage of saucers in the modern era
is not too far fetched.

Originally posted by davidbiedny
Based on my reading of the emails between HornDog and Lear on the IIGSWest website, (with Derek being CC'd), it's clear why Lear is making the statements he's expressed here - he's parroting the nonsense, lies and fabrications he's being fed by Horn-O, almost verbatim. Lear is essentially acting as Meier's sock puppet. How revealing! Thanks for posting that stuff, Derek.

Mr. Lear ought to be careful who he sides with. Another one of Horn's internetbuddies and fellow Meierite recently got sentenced to 9 months in prison for contempt of court. Maybe the Meier info does strange things to the behavior of people, I don't know. But I guess some people would say it does exactly that.

Originally posted by derekcbart
reply to post by AGENT51

 

Hi there.

First, Jeff was not involved in the photos on the IIG webpage. If you want to download the high-rez images (which are available, unlike the Meier photos) here are the instructions:
Go to: www.iigwest.com...
Username: meier
Password: meier
From there you can view/download all of the high resolution images taken by James Underdown, including the setup photos and the ones that didn't come out well.
If you go to: www.iigwest.com... you can see how Trey Stokes made his photographs.
.

So I checked out many of the photos, thank for sharing the hi-res images. When I asked how big the models were I meant 'both' models, not just the small one used in the grand canyon photo.

My conclusion on the Grand Canyon photo is that it is not an accurate reproduction in comparison to the photos used in the Billy Meier case. This conclusion is not based upon belief/non-belief in Billy's claims. It is based on rational science.




Your Grand canyon photo does not show any environmental hazing as shown in the background. It is quite easy for a skeptic to see this. As a skeptic myself, the claiming of Meier's photos as debunked on this photo is not adequate proof in my eyes.




In This Photo, you can tell there is 'some' degree of environmental hazing. Regardless if its a model or not, one can discern that is far enough away to be noticeable in size. This is why I asked for all the model dimensions used in your investigation. Until I can get more info. I'm still out on this one. While modern science cant prove the Meier story as real, I don't feel your photos can claim the Meier story as 'debunked' either.





[edit on 28-1-2008 by AGENT51]

Originally posted by TerraX
Another one of Horn's internetbuddies and fellow Meierite recently got sentenced to 9 months in prison for contempt of court.

What does that have to do with the topic at hand? You didn't just hit below the belt, you totally whiffed and knocked out some dude sitting in the front row. Stop resorting to cheap tactics!

Peace

reply to post by AGENT51


I do not believe that what you are seeing in the Meier photographs is environmental hazing. What you are seeing is the degradation of multiple generations of copying. If Meier were to release high resolution images (which he is either unable or unwilling to) then we would be comparing apples-to-apples, so to speak.

When viewing the Meier images you need to keep in mind that no one has ever seen the original negatives or slide positives, let alone examined them. All that has ever been published are prints and then scans of those prints and then jpegs of those scans of those prints. This degradation of the image quality tends to smooth everything out.

[edit on 28-1-2008 by derekcbart]

Derek, I respectfully disagree. its quite obvious in both photos that there is environmental hazing at varying degrees. Even if one were to copy both photos numerous times, one would still be able to get a good look at the varying degrees of hazing in both photos. The fact that Billy's photo is still in good quality after apparent numerous reproductions leaves little room for the degradation argument in my mind. If you compare the two side by side there isnt much difference in photo quality, minus the fact that the IIG photo is a bit sharper.

At the time these photos were taken, photoshop did not exist, and it is my understanding that the Employees at camera shop where where Billy purchased and had some of his film developed, corroborate that they did not manipulate the photos.

The fact that there is no mention of environmental hazing in your investigation simply means that a better series of reproductions needs to be made as this is one of a few viable ways to measure distance in a photo. That said, this skeptic does not conclude that the IIG team has successfully debunked the photos presented.


[edit on 28-1-2008 by AGENT51]

Nice Post Mr lear in capturing all the quotes that I myself would never resort to. There does seem to be a bit of prejudice on that matter..

regardless: It seems that both sides keep asking for things from the other that the other won't provide.

From the believers side:
reproduce the wedding cake and the video of the wedding cake as well as reproduce the sounds. why can't that be done if you're so gung ho in debunking? Billy has provided the proof so in the spirit of what this forum is about, you must reproduce to debunk.

Editing to add just a tad more.
I understand that some of you believe without a doubt that this has been debunked and in the process you call the believers all of the things that Mr Lear quoted.. No matter how sure you are though and no matter what things seem like, it just hasn't been properly debunked for some people. If the above requests were filled for me then I would maybe have some thoughts..

------------
But I have one questions I would sincerely like answered that doesn't pertain to photos or sounds.

How do you explain THIS WOMANS TESTIMONY
Have you watched this testimony?
I just don't see how any photographic, audio, metal sample or other argument stands up to a person of this caliber's testimony of her life experiences.
If there is anyone to contact over what the have seen or said, it's this person.

b




[edit on 28-1-2008 by Bspiracy]

Originally posted by Bspiracy
reproduce the wedding cake and the video of the wedding cake as well as reproduce the sounds. why can't that be done if you're so gung ho in debunking? Billy has provided the proof so in the spirit of what this forum is about, you must reproduce to debunk.

lol@Billy Meier yet again...

Reproduce the wedding cake? LOL As far as statements like "noone on earth could make those models" go, I have 2 words for you :

Star Wars

Yup, that movie made in the late 70's and it's sequels in the early 80's, well guess what all the ships in that movie are models. You think noone can make that hilarious "wedding cake" yet they could make the Millenium Falcon look so awesome???? Get freakin' real people.

The movie model shop I worked at for years made models of spaceships and entire cities that next to a Billy Meier(the prophet lol) cake tin would just flat out blow it away.

Let's see...

He's been caught by pics of the trash can lid at his place, and his ex-wife saying it was fake... and when he was caught, the story he tried to put forward was hilarious...something along the lines of people didn't get the alien signals right and made trash can lids instead??? I mean if it were real why would he even need to put out a story like that?

Then there are the pics of the TV and paintings of dinosaurs which are hilarious. The negatives found at his place of pictures of spaceship models that according to him were made by him and his kids. C'mon the writing is on the wall.

OMG, the raygun LOL... if these things aren't HUGE red flags then how about...

Calling himself a prophet, and a cult leader,....yes one that you have to PAY to be in!

Were the lessons of Heaven's Gate, Waco, Jonestown not enough????????

Originally posted by Soloist

Originally posted by Bspiracy

As far as statements like "noone on earth could make those models" go, I have 2 words for you :

Star Wars

Yup, that movie made in the late 70's and it's sequels in the early 80's, well guess what all the ships in that movie are models. You think noone can make that hilarious "wedding cake" yet they could make the Millenium Falcon look so awesome???? Get freakin' real people.

Let's see...

He's been caught by pics of the trash can lid at his place, and his ex-wife saying it was fake... and when he was caught, the story he tried to put forward was hilarious...something along the lines of people didn't get the alien signals right and made trash can lids instead??? I mean if it were real why would he even need to put out a story like that?

Calling himself a prophet, and a cult leader,....yes one that you have to PAY to be in!

As a skeptic, you're supposed to sift through facts. You are sifting through hearsay.

1) The "trash can" lid was posted on the Figu forum from someone in Canada (not at Billy's place).

2) Yes, if given the funding, the models could be reproduced. This does not necessarily make it a hoax. That would mean Billy would have to be wealthy and know people in the Hollywood model making biz for years.

3) He's never called himself a prophet that I am aware of. He claims to share what he considers prophecies from other sources.

4) Thanks for the post, but please leave the debunking to real skeptics. You have shown no proof that Billy claimed himself to be a prophet, or a cult leader. As well, his wife is on record as confirming many of Billy's claims.



[edit on 28-1-2008 by AGENT51]

Originally posted by AGENT51

Originally posted by Soloist

Originally posted by Bspiracy

lol@Billy Meier yet again...

Reproduce the wedding cake? LOL As far as statements like "noone on earth could make those models" go, I have 2 words for you :

Star Wars

Yup, that movie made in the late 70's and it's sequels in the early 80's, well guess what all the ships in that movie are models. You think noone can make that hilarious "wedding cake" yet they could make the Millenium Falcon look so awesome???? Get freakin' real people.

Let's see...

He's been caught by pics of the trash can lid at his place, and his ex-wife saying it was fake... and when he was caught, the story he tried to put forward was hilarious...something along the lines of people didn't get the alien signals right and made trash can lids instead??? I mean if it were real why would he even need to put out a story like that?

Calling himself a prophet, and a cult leader,....yes one that you have to PAY to be in!

As a skeptic, you're supposed to sift through facts. You are sifting through hearsay.

1) The "trash can" lid was posted on the Figu forum from someone in Canada (not at Billy's place).

His ex-wife even claims it came from the farm, so....yah...

2) Yes, if given the funding, the models could be reproduced. This does not necessarily make it a hoax. That would mean Billy would have to be wealthy and know people in the Hollywood model making biz for years.

I was commenting on how people here say it's impossible anyone here on earth can make them, thanks for helping prove my point actually.

3) He's never called himself a prophet that I am aware of. He claims to share what he considers prophecies from other sources.

Oh cmon now...he is mentioned as the phopet over and over again in their culty little texts.....I don't see him going on a crusade to take that out? Like I said, there have been lessons before, anyone who "believes" in this hype should take a long hard serious look at such lessons.

4) Thanks for the post, but please leave the debunking to real skeptics.

Thanks for the humorous attempt at an insult, you should leave that up to the real comedians.


If you're going to comment on my post, comment on all of it, or don't bother. It makes you look like a billy meier "believer" otherwise.... but maybe you are? lol

LOL@you for trying to defend Billy Meier.

Originally posted by Dr Love
What does that have to do with the topic at hand? You didn't just hit below the belt, you totally whiffed and knocked out some dude sitting in the front row. Stop resorting to cheap tactics!
Peace

Well Dr Love, I realise it wasn't the most flattering thing to point out and it's right on the edge but the thing is it's actually spot on. Maybe I should also point out that many people have been deeply offended by Mr Horn over the years. His behavior is wellknown on the forums and a number of people have put up emails by Mr Horn on their respective homepages showing his kind of 'respect' for criticism and skepticism when dealing with other persons. Maybe I'm wrong to treat Horn like he treats others but my post was primarily directed at Mr Lear as a cautionary measure. Since Mr Lear defends Mr Horn (to a degree as far as I can see), I thought it was wise to inform him of Mr Horn's previous collaborations with other (ufological-paranormal) figures. Seeing that those collaborations can end up in tragedy (and there are a few I can point out) I mentioned this particular aspect in my post. The warning being, you can defend certain persons but your usefulness to them will only go so far. I think that's a fair warning.

Soloist:
Why would I respond point by point to your post when the -ONE- question I am asking for at this time has been ignored?
The question I am referring to is regarding the testimony I linked to in my previous post.-- 2 posts actually and no one has still responded...
I don't see the difficulty in answering this.

BUT.. I'll go ahead and be the Billy Meier champion of the day.--
I have a lot of extra time and I'm feeling like I could type a bit.

TRASH CAN LID: it is NOT a match.
It's close in form, but it really is not a match. Go study the "evidence" really hard. If I have to I'll bust out some side by side pics illustrating the differences.
--- The wife made the statement about the lid after they split. In a manner that was suspect in itself from what I understand. -- The wife is also estranged from her children because her children don't understand why she started saying Billy hoaxed this. --- Her children have gone on camera stating they have always had experiences and are confused to the route she has taken.

WEDDING CAKE / ReCREATION: - I personally have never said it was impossible to recreate. However: I mentioned that as far as Billy and his story is concerned, he's provided proof and it's the debunkers responsibility to prove him wrong. ------- There will always be a way to devise a concept in photography to emulate what Billy has done regarding his photos in general. Jeff R and DavidB are intelligent people and have the skills to do so-- That's why it's a moot point.
The intention for asking someone to recreate the ship and then recreate say a video with it where you walk in front of the camera and then zoom to the ship 300 yards away on the side of a tree is where the skeptics fail.
The really important thing is how in the heck could he do it? That just hasn't been answered.
---
I've said it before, both sides prove the other side wrong. A "hoax" like Billy's should be able to be PROVED as a hoax from A-Z with EASE. It hasn't been done though.
In general, if something has truly been debunked then it's as a general consensus. If everyone doesn't agree then it HAS NOT BEEN.

THE PROPHET COMMENT?"Culty":
He has unequivocally never called himself that. A messenger but not a prophet.
This is where people in general mess up this story. People are fallible. People will do what is wrong trying to prove a right thereby making the right a wrong.
I am not "Culty"
Do I seem culty?
Do I "preach" anything other than a general decorum on this forum?
When you say "Culty" then you are right and wrong at the same time though. Some people do follow his word with a bit more zeal than he himself has even tried to teach but I don't see anyone like that in this forum.
-- So comments like "culty" after several people on here have made rational arguments is simply a rude gesture on your part. And to tell the truth, the skeptics side really is the rude side in this forum. Why?

Regarding Horn: this is a double edged sword. I really have a problem with his personality and how he "represents" Billy. Too emotional, prone to reckless comments and decisions etc etc..
---I truthfully became a Billy believer before I ever heard of Horn though. That's the cruddy part for me.. I learned before Horn and then I find out he's drawn all the American focus towards him.. grr.. He is trying in his capacity though so I'm still in his/Billy's corner.

I'm curious as to this "ring of fire" ship in the latest video..If it's true that they claim a guy swinging the stuff around his head is a craft then I refer back to why I dislike Horn and some others in how they choose to represent.

I'd appreciate some comments on the below issues.
-------

-videoA: Billy stands in front of the camera, walks behind and zooms across a field to the wedding cake ship
-videoB: 4 ships at once
-VideoB_2: One ship on two places on one frame of film.
-Testimony I linked in my previous post and the credibility of the witness and description of her life experiences. I could possibly post the video somewhere of her exact testimony if somone wishes. The DVDs aren't copyrighted the same as usual meaning sharing is fine as long as no money is made.

There's more..a whole lot more but I'd like to hear responses to those specifically. I'm sure there are some unanswerable questions for me as well

b