Do people who aren’t Christian deserve be tortured in hell?

To be honest God said he had other flock of the sheep. I believe some will be saved that didnt believe. Those that had a pure heart. Those with pure hearts are rare indeed. I just think that those that follow chrisianity are those gifts of Gods we are more holy to God than those that didnt believe. God needs us he wants us. We are so important to God we will judge angels.

Originally posted by AshleyD

Originally posted by WorldShadow
You have been rather very selective in quoting my post, and have attempted to use a spin favored by fundamentalist.

Has it ever occurred to you, that as a Christian, you maybe factually and totally be wrong yourself!.

Wrath of Descent is not a Christian. He has explained this many times on ATS and this thread.

How odd you make the above statement AshleyD when the quoted part from me was in answer to defcon365. I did suspect defcon365 and wrathofdescent wrote hauntingly similar in writing tone.

So do you know wrathofdescent as defcon365 since you replied as the two are one when reporting wrathofdescent is not Christian when I pointed the message at defcon365. Than I see wrathofdescent deleting his post right under the one I made to defcon3654 as if he maybe wrote something which would have linked the two.

Anyways, I find this thread interesting since now my suspicion is aroused even further. With that, I am compelled to now dismiss this thread in its entirety.

Regards,

reply to post by WorldShadow


I see what you are saying. No, I personally do not believe they are one and the same (no reason for me to think so, at least). The problem is this: I had a brain fart moment when you and Wrath were talking and came to his defense after seeing his comment to you before he updated it. I didn't notice you switched your focus over to Defcon while talking with Wrath. After I noticed the goof, it was too late to update it since the update feature for that comment expired and was forced to let my comment sit there, in all its glory, as a testament to my own lack of observation.

As to why Wrath updated his post after yours was because he probably misunderstood your comment in the same way I did: he assumed you were thinking he was a Christian fundamentalist. He had time to update his comment after realizing who you were talking to. I wasn't as fortunate!

[edit on 1/25/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by Critical_Mass
LOL! this is a hilarious thread.

Let's sum it up by answering the title of this thread with a NO.
There are no TRUE christians that would ever be caught dead telling someone they will go to hell if they don't accept jesus.

Anyone doing something like that is known as an extremist.

This comment intrigues me. What is a "TRUE" Christian supposed to say when asked about the concept of Hell and how to avoid going there according to Christianity? If a Christian heeds Jesus' words as recorded in the New Testament?

He says all you have to do is believe in Him for eternal life. If not, into the furnace you go (His words). So, a "true" Christian is one who follows the teachings and warnings of Jesus and that is what Jesus said. What exactly should a true Christian say? Sometimes the truth isn't pretty. If Hell is the truth, then that really isn't pretty. I agree that Hell should not be the focal point of church sermons nor should we run around telling everyone they're going to Hell. But when someone asks what Christians believe concerning Hell, what else are we supposed to say?

Originally posted by AshleyD

At least a warning was given and the way to avoid going there is immensely simple: Belief. Something no one can take away from you: Belief. Something only you can choose as to not have anything or anyone prevent you from salvation: Belief. No works just: Belief.

[edit on 1/22/2008 by AshleyD]

I've been lurking a long time here at ATS, so here is my first post.

I believe in God, though more as a spirit as opposed to someone who is a being like us albeit without human limits. I understand and welcome other peoples' varying beliefs in theological matters. Belief is a very personal matter that encompasses at once intuition, faith, and critical thinking.

I do not believe in Jesus as described by more conservative factions of the Christian church. I use all three of the above elements in arriving at that conclusion. The problem then is that I cannot force myself to believe in something if I truly do not believe it. I cannot lie to myself by saying "I don't really believe it, but I guess I'd better act like I do or else I'm damned for eternity." I wouldn't be honest with myself, and certainly this type of dishonesty would not fly past a supreme being who would care about this sort of thing.

If someone tells me that there is a book that is supposedly the literal word of God, and in this book it says that the earth is shaped like a cube, and I must believe this in order to be saved, I'm sorry, but I can't convince myself to believe this no matter what sort of punishment is meted out according to scripture. Faith has to be honest in order for it be worth anything. I don't think people are punished in any way (let alone the horrendous ways described in the Bible) for using their hearts and minds to reach a conclusion that is contrary to church teaching.

Originally posted by memory_nuke
If God wanted man to go to heaven, why did he put man on earth in the first place? Why did he not simply put man in heaven from the beginning?

Hi memory/
God created man, after(how long after, I don't know time) the Angels.

"When the stars were made, all My angels praised Me with a loud voice" (Job 38:7).
The Apostle Paul writes: "For by Him were all things created,
that are in heaven,
and that are in earth,
visible and invisible,
whether they be thrones,
or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by Him and for Him" (Col. 1:16).
also... Prophet Daniel saw the Ancient of Days in a vision, he saw that "thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousands of myriads attended upon Him" (Dan. 7:10)...thousands of thousands is a big number,we just can't guess!


Christ said(The LOGOS-Word was present)...."I saw Satan, fallen from heaven as a bolt of lightning,"
Lucifer(Satan)rebelled against God.
"There occurred a war in the heavens.
Michael and his angels fought against the dragon,
and the dragon and his angels fought against them.
However they did not prevail,
and there was no room for them in heaven. The great dragon was cast down, that ancient snake, known as devil and satan … and his angels were also cast down with him" (Revelation 12:7-9)
God created Adam(first man)after a third of the Angels followed Lucifer(Satan)....fell to a lower heaven which is earth.





I find it hard to believe that man with all his capabilities, desires, and complexities was created merely to sit and bow and scrape and worship. Certainly there is not, nor ever was, a human tyrant so vain and proud that he wanted his subjects merely to bow and scrape obsequiously and subserviently before him from dawn to dusk, let alone for all eternity. I certainly can understand why Satan wanted to rebel against such a static, regimented, oppressive, boring society. From what you have told me so far, I would have had to side with Satan in the rebellion, for although I consider myself a humble man as men go, I could not bow and scrape and sing praises all day to a being who threatened me with punishment and eternal torment if I did not.

Of course; by definition he is without sin because he could not be disobedient to himself. The only real difference between the two is the degree of power. Therefore, Satan was not wrong or sinful to rebel against God, he was only wrong to lose the rebellion. For if he had won, God would be the sinner: because God would have been disobedient to Satan who would be better than God or the other angels because he could not sin against himself, that is, be disobedient to himself, and he would have proven himself all powerful. If Satan had won, he would have become God, by your definition because he would have been all powerful and without sin. Who knows but that this didn't happen? From your description of God, I begin to suspect at this point that it did. "

If God is just or merciful, how can he do this to an enemy who fought him in battle. Why did God not simply pardon Satan after defeat as men often do to a captured nation after they defeat it? Mankind would seem in victory to be more merciful than God; for they do not treat the vanquished to such terrible torments for even a lifetime, let alone for all eternity. Why did God not show the qualities that you described as his justice, mercy, compassion, and forgiveness to Satan? Certainly God's warlike nature is in marked contrast with your definition of the term God as being peaceful, merciful and all forgiving.

Should have a read at this www.jameshartforcongress.com...
Quite a good read for everyone.

slymattb

I just think that those that follow chrisianity are those gifts of Gods we are more holy to God than those that didnt believe.

Wait wait wait....... you actually think that Christians are somehow better then everyone else.....? what...?

Sounds like Hitler's chosen race...lol....


[edit on 25-1-2008 by andre18]

reply to post by andre18



And standing in a forrest makes you a tree.
Science makes you smart.
Etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.
If only the world was so cut and dry.

Originally posted by WorldShadow
reply to post by defcon365

 

You have been rather very selective in quoting my post, and have attempted to use a spin favored by fundamentalist.

Wow, when someone actually quotes you, that is considered spin??? Interesting concept!?!


[edit on 25-1-2008 by defcon365]

Originally posted by andre18

I don’t believe in your god….yep….or anyone else’s….yep….or any god for that matter…yep

Then once again, what is the point of your thread "Do people who aren’t Christian deserve be tortured in hell?"

1. You pose the thread as a question...
2. You repeatedly stated your obvious disbelief in God and/or Christ.

Most rational people, regardless of faith, can see the above makes NO SENSE WHAT SO EVER!!!

For someone who supposedly believes "logic and science" (you can read your previous posts) it appears that your logic is quite warped. At least when it comes to the logic of thinking in orderly rational ways.

reply to post by defcon365


What...lol....just because I don't believe in god, doesn't mean i can't ask question about god to people who do believe in god....

Like if a Christian asked what atheists believe in, for example, why don't atheists believe in heaven...? etc....

reply to post by andre18


Case in point andre18...

A question is a subject in dispute or that is open for discussion.

Conflict is opposing actions of incompatibility or to show antagonism or irreconcilability.

reply to post by andre18

Like if a Christian asked what atheists believe in, for example, why don't atheists believe in heaven...? etc....

And it bugs you when they bug you with their stuff right?
So how are you in the right to do the same?

reply to post by andre18


As has been stated at least a dozen times on this thread: Anyone has the right to ask questions, have questions, and dispute the beliefs of others. It only becomes a problem when that person who does the asking turns around and insults the very people who try to help by answering the thread. Even if you do not agree with the answers you do not have to basically call people idiots.

Instead, make a rebuttal without sinking to personal attacks. It's the condescending attitude you make towards everyone on this thread and your other threads that has been well noted. Eventually you will begin to wonder why the threads you make only get five replies even when the topic itself is stellar.

[edit on 1/26/2008 by AshleyD]

Since when have I insulted anyone as to call them anything even remotely close to an idiot…I’ll probably mock what someone says when they say something ridiculous like

“I just think that those that follow Christianity are those gifts of Gods we are more holy to God than those that didn’t believe.”

But I haven’t once called people names…..don’t start putting words in my bloody mouth…..

And it bugs you when they bug you with their stuff right?

Depends on what they say….the only thing that irritates me, is when replying ignorantly….like the above comment…..

So how are you in the right to do the same?

If a Christian asked a question like……why shouldn’t atheists accept Jesus etc, well then, there’s no problem…and there shouldn’t be a problem…..just like if I was to ask why ‘do people who aren’t Christian deserve be tortured in hell?’…a question is put forward…..it’s relevant to people’s opinions…..it simply gets answered….etc….where’s the problem….? I’m in the right to ask a religious question, as any religious person is in the right to ask an atheist a question about their beliefs…….




[edit on 26-1-2008 by andre18]

reply to post by andre18


It's an opinion.
They have one.
You have one.
Your opinion is that they are wrong.
Your attacking their opinion like your opinion is better.

I agree with you that alot of religions are screwy.
But as long as they don't try to send this dirty unbeliever heathen to meet their devil.
Or in your belief's case oblivian.
Otherwords KILL ME.
I could care less what they are saying.
Sticks and stones, sticks and stones.

You on the other hand, are attacking.
You can sharpen words into spears just as you can a stick.
But it doesn't hurt a damn thing except if allowed to.

Simple fact is both atheists and well in this case christians have things that they feel is compelling evidence to support their stances.
But, rather than acting like sane rational adults and agreeing to disagree because your NEVER going to see eye to eye.

They attack each other and continue the BS cycle while not achieving ANYTHING beyond some sort of superior attitude and a conflict that has taken on its own life.


AND your attacking their beliefs. Pure and simple.
As if you have some glow of almost divine (of course its not divine as you don't believe in a higher being) knowledge that they don't have.

Your not in the right in a nutshell.
Your addressing what you feel to be with agression with agression and not fixing anything but making it worse.
If this BS cycle continues eventually there will be bloodshed.
It's human nature.

Oh. And please note I am not saying people shouldn't share their beliefs.
A sharing of beliefs on a respectful level is a VERY good thing.
But remember to take yourself with a grain of salt.
Even though you think your right.

[edit on 26-1-2008 by WraothAscendant]

As a practicing pantheistic pagan who attended 12 years of catholic private schools and grew up with an incredibly Liberal presbyterian Mother I have interesting perspective on Religion in its various forms. My husband was raised by a pentacostal family and his dad was a preacher and held revivals..but was a tolerant kind and accepting man. We have some interesting discussions in our house!

Upon further research Christianity is so closely linked to the older traditions it is hard to miss. This is also the reason why so many new fundamental evangelical churches use almost no decoration in there churches and downplay most of the holidays such as easter and christmas.

The hoofed and horned devil is a twisting of the traditional nature spirit of which represented both fertility (in all its various aspects) as well as being a trickster and introducing an element of chaos into the lives of people. Which nature and her cycles certainly achieve from time to time.
This older god or deity was depicted as a satyr like being with a human head, small horns and hoofed feet.
Also if i have my mythology correct Hades was the greek underworld and contained lakes and rivers of fire.

Jesus said "the only way to the father (meaning heaven in this context) is through me" Im paraphrasing but its very near a direct quote.

Well as a non christian I can still say that Jesus was a pretty cool guy, he was gentle, loving, accepting, giving, stood up for his beliefs in a non violent manner, Loved the people whom society rejected, healed the sick and gave anything that was his for the good of other people.
Most people strive to follow the Ten commandments as a rule of principle and morals regardless of their religious belief frankly its a good code of living, even taking the gods name in vain..which means a lot more than simple cursing. It also extends to using God as a way to further your personal beliefs and agenda in a way that contradicts those moral codes.

Simply accepting Christian doctrines or acting in a certain way for the reason of avoiding hell makes it then a selfish act. You dont have to believe in heaven and hell to believe in consequences to your actions and many people strive to do good things because they realize it is the right thing to do. And you reap what you sew, even if it doesnt seem that way at the time.
If the way to heaven was through Jesus than simply acting with love and grace and humility in your life while giving to those who have need would give someone the salvation that so many christians preach.

And for the poster at the beginning who said Dogs dont go to heaven....I truly think you must never have experienced the unending love loyalty and devotion of a dog. There is nothing more unconditional or pure on this earth than the love of a dog, well except for a newborn child but that is a different can of worms

I challenge you to be the person your dog thinks you are.
this could be a sure way to judge ones worthiness of everlasting salvation.

I truly believe a persons moral character can be judged in the way the treat the animals they come in contact with.

What about those who are born into a family whose religion is different?
Do they deserve to go to hell?

I don't believe anyone is born into the correct religion.

If God is just or merciful, how can he do this to an enemy who fought him in battle. Why did God not simply pardon Satan after defeat as men often do to a captured nation after they defeat it? Mankind would seem in victory to be more merciful than God; for they do not treat the vanquished to such terrible torments for even a lifetime, let alone for all eternity. Why did God not show the qualities that you described as his justice, mercy, compassion, and forgiveness to Satan? Certainly God's warlike nature is in marked contrast with your definition of the term God as being peaceful, merciful and all forgiving.

reply to post by memory_nuke


'course not.
They are all paths that we can choose which best suits us.