Jehovah is an Evil God!!!

reply to post by XcLuciFer



I kind of came in late on this, but here's my response.

First off what is Good and Evil, who defines it? Is humanity even in the position to ask that? Are we a hypocritical species for making such an accusation?

Looking at Nature itself, death, destruction, pain, and suffering are built into the system itself. Many people who study biology and its offshoots often become atheists, rather than entertain the idea that a Creator designed a system that includes parasites, cannibalism, disease, and various other terrible aspects of Nature. Many atheists cannot reconcile the apparent appearance of Maltheistic and Dystheistic traits in an omnipotent creator, so Atheism is seen as preferable to the belief in a Maltheistic or Dystheistic deity.

Philisophically, a Good( good being defined as some fantastic ideal of life, pleasure, and peace) Creator is impossible. An Omnipotent Creator would be beyond our concepts of Good and Evil. In a sense this Creator would be responsible for the existance of what we would call Good and Evil.

The Creator as depicted in the Jewish Bible, is beyond Good and Evil. As you quote from Isaiah He proclaims to of created Good and Evil, Light and Darkness. He uses destructive force to project His will and power. Everything from Viruses to Humanity also use destructive force to survive and project power. Violence and destruction can no more be removed from Nature than can light, color, or sound. From violent chemical reactions to the food chains that support life on this planet, violent and destructive force is a Universal Constant.

If our Universe was simply Matter and Flesh then I would agree this would make a Creator seem quite Tyrannical, Apathetic, Malevolent, Sadistic, and Cruel.

Yet, if our Universe is dualistic, in the sense that we are both Flesh and something Transcendent, everything changes. Suddenly matter and flesh are meaningless and Finite. The only thing that really matters is what is beyond the Flesh. This Transcendence is Infinite. It would be ultimate reality. This dirtball and the shells we inhabit would not be ultimate, but clearly inferior and an Illusion.

Now consider the viewpoint of the Transcendant and Ultimate being that created the finite universe. To Him our Flesh, our Pain, and our Deaths are nothing, they are an Illusion. Flesh, Pain, and Death would be Finite. Our Transcendent beings would define who we really are. This Material Universe would not be ultimate reality and would have no bearing on the Transcendent existence beyond it.

In other words, these bodies and this world do not matter. What matters is our free will. We are not defined by our flesh but by our Will. Pain and Death have no bearing upon our Will. Our Transcendent Will is who we are and all that really matters. At least in my opinion.

Evil is relative.

Imaginary friends, such as Jehovah, cannot be evil.

If I were god, however, I would kill indiscriminately. For if god were to exist, he would be as far beyond us as we are beyond an ant; and I can't fathom any of us having any qualms about killing a ant, or several million for that matter.

Seriously, if you had the power to instantaneously destroy or create life, would you really give a rat's butt if you wiped out a few hundred thousand people because they refused to abide by your rules?

Think about it.

Originally posted by boredguy

Originally posted by bakednutz
What a joke, why dont you read the the Bible and then decide if God is loving. You just went and picked a few passages to suit your thread and and base your whole argument on that? Like I said WHAT A JOKE! Should I post a ton of passages that speak of love and peace?

most are from the old testament is that why jesus came to clarify his meaning of love, compassion and peace.

How right you are! The true story of jesus is the greatest one ever told. Emperor Constantine made sure that the story was twisted, if it had been kept in its original form how different our world would be!

reply to post by MikeboydUS


not neccessarily we were given free will the option to do good and evil if we didnt have the option of evil we wouldnt have free will, because of this what is good to one person may be evil to another.

Originally posted by Osiris1953
Evil is relative.

Imaginary friends, such as Jehovah, cannot be evil.

If I were god, however, I would kill indiscriminately. For if god were to exist, he would be as far beyond us as we are beyond an ant; and I can't fathom any of us having any qualms about killing a ant, or several million for that matter.

Seriously, if you had the power to instantaneously destroy or create life, would you really give a rat's butt if you wiped out a few hundred thousand people because they refused to abide by your rules?

Think about it.

Well God being all powerful and all knowing, what would be the point of creating life if he already knew how it was going to turn out?

We do not have to abide by God's rules, it is optional also known as free will. What would be the point of having a bunch of zombies walking around obeying your every command?

Originally posted by XcLuciFer

Originally posted by boredguy

Originally posted by bakednutz
What a joke, why dont you read the the Bible and then decide if God is loving. You just went and picked a few passages to suit your thread and and base your whole argument on that? Like I said WHAT A JOKE! Should I post a ton of passages that speak of love and peace?

most are from the old testament is that why jesus came to clarify his meaning of love, compassion and peace.

How right you are! The true story of jesus is the greatest one ever told. Emperor Constantine made sure that the story was twisted, if it had been kept in its original form how different our world would be!

i mean the greatest thing you can do for another person is die for them proving compassion and love.

Originally posted by boredguy
reply to post by MikeboydUS

 

not neccessarily we were given free will the option to do good and evil if we didnt have the option of evil we wouldnt have free will, because of this what is good to one person may be evil to another.

Thats why good and evil are ultimately irrelevant. It cannot be defined. From a Biblical point of view, our Will, our Choices are judged by Right and Wrong as defined by Deity, not by what we as humans define as relative good and evil.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

Originally posted by boredguy
reply to post by MikeboydUS

 

not neccessarily we were given free will the option to do good and evil if we didnt have the option of evil we wouldnt have free will, because of this what is good to one person may be evil to another.

Thats why good and evil are ultimately irrelevant. It cannot be defined. From a Biblical point of view, our Will, our Choices are judged by Right and Wrong as defined by Deity, not by what we as humans define as relative good and evil.

are you saying you cant depict right from wrong?

reply to post by boredguy


There is a difference between right, wrong and good, evil.

Originally posted by bakednutz

Originally posted by Osiris1953
Evil is relative.

Imaginary friends, such as Jehovah, cannot be evil.

If I were god, however, I would kill indiscriminately. For if god were to exist, he would be as far beyond us as we are beyond an ant; and I can't fathom any of us having any qualms about killing a ant, or several million for that matter.

Seriously, if you had the power to instantaneously destroy or create life, would you really give a rat's butt if you wiped out a few hundred thousand people because they refused to abide by your rules?

Think about it.

Well God being all powerful and all knowing, what would be the point of creating life if he already knew how it was going to turn out?

We do not have to abide by God's rules, it is optional also known as free will. What would be the point of having a bunch of zombies walking around obeying your every command?

OMG!!!! LOL you don't have freewill under Jahovah, do you know what freewill is, do you know what it is to be free. If some one tell you don't do this or you will die you are not FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm going to sleep will be back 2morrow. Sweatdreams

Originally posted by XcLuciFer
Ash I don't want to make you look foolish again

I have yet to see you do this once.

I never asked you anything about your religion, their is no question mark there in that quote

Review some of your posts in this thread. Seriously, the very first sentence in the original thread was a question about the Judeo-Christian God: "Does this sound like a real loving God?" Followed by multiple Bible verses.

why would I when I clearly know more about it then you do you want go over the Holy Trinity that you claim was super easy to explain again, don't make me school you sweetheart!!!

That is a sad, sad assessment if you actually believe this. I believe I utterly annihilated every argument you brought up in our last thread discussion and answered every question thoroughly that you didn't know the answer to. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not interested in an ego contest about who knows more but the arrogance blows my mind.

I would never claim to know Islam better than a Muslim or Hinduism better than a Hindu or the tenets of one's faith more than the actual believer of that faith. It boggles my mind to see people who make the most moronic statements about something, making their ignorance of a subject painfully obvious (which you have done repeatedly in multiple threads), then they claim to know more about it than someone who lives it.

I believe I even equated our last conversation with the Mad Hatter's tea party because your knowledge of Christianity and the Bible was so skewed. Come on, Luc.

[edit on 1/19/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by XcLuciFer

OMG!!!! LOL you don't have freewill under Jahovah, do you know what freewill is, do you know what it is to be free. If some one tell you don't do this or you will die you are not FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm going to sleep will be back 2morrow. Sweatdreams

Well, what is that God is telling you not to do or you will die? Everyone will die no matter what they do, even if they obey gods word, you will die. You are free to do what you want, are you not? You have the option of listening to what is said in the bible, you have the option of believing or not believing, it is all up to YOU! THIS IS FREE WILL!!! God is not telling you how to live your life. It is up to you! FREE WILL!!!!

Originally posted by boredguy

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

Originally posted by boredguy
reply to post by MikeboydUS

 

not neccessarily we were given free will the option to do good and evil if we didnt have the option of evil we wouldnt have free will, because of this what is good to one person may be evil to another.

Thats why good and evil are ultimately irrelevant. It cannot be defined. From a Biblical point of view, our Will, our Choices are judged by Right and Wrong as defined by Deity, not by what we as humans define as relative good and evil.

are you saying you cant depict right from wrong?

I am saying that the argument of good and evil is irrelevant. Good and evil cannot be defined as a whole. There are contradictions and inconsistencies.

On the other hand Law, can be defined. In the Bible the Divine created Good and Evil, but also gave Humanity Law. These Commandments are, from a Biblical point of view, what is relevant. Written Law or Divine Logos either way ultimately define Right and Wrong, which is not bound by relative human good and evil.

Look at the Biblical portrayal of humanity, the Human species is on Trial. Though it is our Will, not our Flesh being Judged. Judged by Divine Law or Logos, not by good or evil.

Note: I am talking about the Noachide Laws, not the whole Torah.



[edit on 19/1/08 by MikeboydUS]

reply to post by AshleyD


Ok Ash do you know what I'm referring to when I write about Emperor Constantine changing Christianity? Why don't you explain the Holy Trinity for us again, and while your at give us the back ground on the word israel or King Salomon?

[edit on 1/19/2008 by XcLuciFer]

In several post I have seen this scripture quoted and in doing so taking it completely out of context. Isaiah 45:7.

Isaiah 45:7 (New International Version)

7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

or if you prefer the KJV

Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Taken out of context it seems to imply that God is responsible even guilty of evil.

However no one bothered mentioning that these words were directed to Cyrus, the one used by God in overthrowing Babylon.
Cyrus was going to devastate Babylon and cause great calamity for that nation that was oppressing the nation of Judah. This is made clear in verse 4

Isaiah 45:4-7 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

4For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Babylon had enslaved Gods chosen people and carried many into exile. Cyrus was allowed by God to bring calamity on Babylon and free his people.

This was a prophesy that served to give hope to the Jewish captives that they would be liberated and their oppressors would suffer evil as a result of their own cruel behavior.

So God was saying take comfort in knowing they'll recive pain?

I doubt that, but I know the only reason why they're called God's chosen people is to give them hope.

Why would God create one race and only say they're God choosen people.

I mean there are plenty more cutures who were more spirutual then them yet they are the "choosen" ones.

That's silly.







[edit on 19-1-2008 by Shawn B.]

With regard to the use of the word, "Evil" as used in Isaiah, we should not have the narrow minded view of the word that is common today.

In order to convey the correct thought in English, the very comprehensive Hebrew word ra‛ is variously translated as “bad,” “gloomy,” “ugly,” “evil,” “calamitous,” “malignant,” “ungenerous,” and “envious,” depending upon the context.

Here are some scriptures that use the word in various ways.

Genesis 40:7 (King James Version)

7And he asked Pharaoh's officers that were with him in the ward of his lord's house, saying, Wherefore look ye so sadly to day?

Here the same word ra' is translated "sadly".

Or here in Deuteronomy 28:35

Deuteronomy 28:35 (King James Version)

35The LORD shall smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head.

Here ra' is translated, "sore".

The point is His enforcing of the penalty for sin, namely, death, has proved to be an evil, or a calamity, for mankind. So, then, evil is not always synonymous with wrongdoing.

Examples of evils or calamities created by Jehovah are the Flood of Noah’s day and the Ten Plagues visited upon Egypt. But these evils were not wrongs. Rather, the rightful administration of justice against wrongdoers was involved in both cases.

Originally posted by XcLuciFer
Ok Ash do you know what I'm referring to when I write about Emperor Constantine changing Christianity?

Yup. I know all about it. And it may surprise you to know I agree with you to an extent. Yes, under Constantine "Christianity" did a lot of merging with paganism and pagan mystery concepts. He did this to unite everyone to ease the empire's transition between paganism and Christianity. But this is where you and I part ways. This pertains mainly to Catholicism (I'm not Catholic), man made dogma (which I do not adhere to), and rites and rituals required for salvation (a concept never mentioned in the Bible).

The historical texts true "orthodox" Christians reference predate Constantine. I just finished discussing this in depth on another thread and know exactly what I'm talking about. Yes, it got twisted thanks to Constantine. He's a Catholic hero, not an original Christian hero. The church founders predate Constantine and our true foundation prior to distortion by Constantine is what I go by. You will have to research the facts for yourself after you put down your copy of the Davinci Code and get to the truth.

Start with the writings of the historians that were around centuries before Constantine was a twinkle in his mother's eye and who were witnesses to the original apostolic teachings. It will prove your conspiracy theory is baseless for Christians who adhere to what Christianity originally was- not what it came to be thanks to the corrupt Catholic church. Get it? Probably not. But it's not my problem or job to spoon feed anyone.

I think you're erroneously assuming Catholicism is the end and be all of Christianity. This is so untrue and a myth that will probably never die. Its like the old I.Q. test questions that states all zips are zoodles but not all zoodles are zips. Catholicism is an offshoot (albeit a stubborn one) of Christianity. Not the other way around. They like to say Peter was the first pope and all that nonsense and that Catholicism is the one true way but I think you and I know better.

reply to post by Shawn B.


Your missing the whole point of the Choosing. Its for a Job, not some special exemption status.

Chosen to be a beacon, an example to the world, to help the world (Tikkun Olam) and ensure the world observes the Noachide Laws.

Originally posted by Shawn B.
So God was saying take comfert in knowing they'll recive pain?

I doubt that, but I know the only reason why there called God's chosen people is to give the hope.

Why would God create one race and only say they're God choosen people.

I mean there are plenty more cultures who were more spirutual then them yet they are the "choosen" ones.

That's silly.

[edit on 19-1-2008 by Shawn B.]

Its really quite simple. God made a covenant with Abraham. Evidently Abraham worshiped Jehovah even while he lived in the land of Ur where idolatry was rampant Later he stated that that the Messiah would come from the line of Judah,..ect. God chose this nation to bring forth the promised seed (Jesus) that would eventually prove to be the savior of mankind.

You are right that there were plenty of other cultures who had their own religions. But none of them agreed to live under the Law covenant given to Moses. They worshiped false gods and practiced idolatry.

God would use a nation that kept his regulations for the fulfillment of his purpose. When Israel or Judah rebelled he allowed them to be punished, sometime severely, as when they were taken captive to Babylon.