“The tanks will return to Red Square on May 9th 2008”

Originally posted by paraphi
reply to post by iskander

 

I'm wide awake Islander. This obsession with US propaganda is verging on silly and seems to be something you throw into the pot every time a fact gets in the way of your point!

Illegal Mexican labour is not slavery. The Soviet Union spend their entire time bleeding the nation dry to fund the Cold War. The Soviet Union collapsed. The West won.

Borat's a joke (but with some serious themes) and the actor is a Jew. The Soviet treatment of the Jews was atrocious - typical Soviet really. If the life of a Soviet Jew was so good why did som many emigrate? Oh yes I forget, it was , "US Propaganda".

I am not entirely sure of your assertion of my ignorance about the Native Americans, but I may well be more versed in their fate than you appreciate, but to be honest that is another topic, happened a long time and this is a forum about weapons.

Regards

What are you talking about, most of the top leaders of the S.U. 80% were jews.

[edit on 20-1-2008 by Lambo Rider]

reply to post by West Coast

Well put! It is not just "why they sought to migrate from the soviet union, its why do they still? In general, Russia is running a deficit with people going out of the country, versus people going into the country.

This is exactly where chess players get separated from poker players. Russians have been posting negative birth rates and high death rates for years, all while repeating the dangers of population loss and so forth.

Russians are portrayed as heavy drinkers that drink them selves into the graves by the thousands.

The fact is that it’s only partially true. While Russia does indeed suffers from an extremely high alcoholism related deaths, the French drink more then the Russians.

Russians sure can drink and binge, but every time I’ve been there, I’ve see a very clear picture.

People that survived the 90s and people that didn’t. The ones that didn’t drink them selves to death, thus the high rate of recorded statistics.

The difference between generations is so drastic, that it just pops right at you on every street corner. You can immediately tell a 90s Russian from a 2000 Russian.

The new generation knows very little of the old Soviet Union, they flat out don’t care, and don’t even understand how drastic of a difference there was.

As an example, during my last trip I’ve seen increadinly massive reconstruction all over the place, and most of the manual labor is done by the immigrants from ex-Soviet republicks.

The situation is very similar as with Mexican slaborers in US.

The difference is that while I was in Russia in 2007, a law was passed to immediately closed down ANY employer that hires illegal, while at the same time providing a system of labor registration and office of migrating laborer rights which is funded by the taxation of the employers.

As to falling birth rates, I simply have to doubt the data that’s coming out, because with in my half year living there, all I’ve see is baby strollers and young children everywhere. Families actually provided with government grants to have more kids, and low interest rates on everything from bank loans, mortgages, etc.

The apartment building I was housed in had traditional birth parties literally all the time. Actually come to think of it, I first though about it when I was cataloguing the pictures I was taking through out my stay there.

Youth and kids are practically in every picture of towns streets.

And slavery in the US? Most of american athletes are BLACK. And we all know how americans like their sports. Slavery has ended, and has been dead for a while, only recently, a few decades ago did the discrimination of blacks die down. There are most certainly racist within the US. However, lets not paint a population of 300 mill with one brush.

Oh man, this is sheer ignorance and bigotry, and I am more then willing to stand my ground on this one.

“only recently, a few decades ago did the discrimination of blacks die down.” – GOOD GREIF, what dimension does your imaginary existence takes place in?

I can’t dignify that with a response, and unless you are some sort of a Neo-Nazi type, I’ll just let others to judge not you, but your words.

As for population of 300mil, Latinos are the ones that feed the population boom, and they have openly stated that they’ll take back California by simply out breeding the whites, which by 2020 will already be one of the minority groups, while the Latinos will be the majority.

Even Tom Clancy’s book and video games clearly portray a civil war between US citizen Latinos and their Mexican family members in Mexico verses white extremist groups.

I also find it interesting how in 2005 america accepted 50,000 meshket turks from russia because russia didnt view them as "white russians", they didnt want them.

What, you just plucked that one from a news article? Do you have any idea of the history behind this particular situation that stretches centuries into the past?

This is the problem these days, people’s memories are so empty, and attention span is so short, that they simply gobble up anything that’s fed to them.

I’m ashamed that at one point I was a part of the system, and to this day is simply amazes me how easy and simple it really is to control people’s minds.

Now instead of boring everybody with yet another history lesson which was supposed to be given in school in the first place, I’ll just post KEY words which are to be used in a search for the truth, if anybody actually cares to do so, since this is “Deny Ignorance” forum after all.

I’ll summarise first, thenfeel free to conduct further research;

1944 – Stalin deports around 100,000 Meshketians to Uzbekistan in order to prevent them from making a pact with Hitler.

1989 – Soviet Unioin is falling apart and is on the brink of civil war between various treibes.

Meshket Turks were evacuated from Uzbekistan in order to avoid a civil war, same with Krasnodar which is a Cossack region.

If you know anything about Russia, you’ll know that Cossacks pledged their allegiance to Russia and have historically fought to protect it. During “Dushman” wars it was the Cossacks that brought the most damage to the war mongering Muslim tribes.

Same happened during the Chechen war, even though Cossacks are Ukrainian, they formed their own army and went on to fight the radicalized Wahhabi Chechens and might I remind you those are the same guys Allied forces are currently fighting against, and that Osama Bin Laden is a Wahhabist.

This is a historical cycle, anytime Russia weakens, certain Muslim tribes (not all of them) begin pillaging and leading the type of life style that they have traditionally when there is nobody to oppose them.

To really simplify it, just think of them as the “Sad People” from Star Wars.

Georgia – Pankese george
Guram Mamulia/ Klara Baratashvili
Ssanzche-Ssaatabago
Timut
Achalzychsky Pashalyk
Adrianopolic Peace Treaty
Fergana Valley
Jusuf Sarvarov
Watan


Then move right to WWII and widespread Muslim support and collaboration with Nazi Germany, thus the heavy handed no questions asked Stalin deportations/breaking up of all potential Muslim collaborators which could form an underground resistance.

Was it cruel, harsh, and unfair? You bet it was, but considering CENTURIES of endless warfare with Muslims, or “Dushmani” as they were called back them by Russians/ Cossacks and the Soviet army, all such deportations were a no nonsense solution to a very real problem.


That problem is what today we know as insurgency.

The very same problem reappeared even before the collapse of the Soviet Union, when in various republics clashes between Muslim and Christians began to escalate into full blown civil wars.

Chechen war began immediately after the Chechen leaders that were imprisoned in Magand jails were released, and they began making plans for war before they even left the Far East.

Conflict between Eduard Sjevardnadse and hard core Meshket nationalist Zviad Gamsakurdia turned out as predicted.

All in all, just remember that after Pearl Harbor we put all American Japanese into concentration camps, and since all of the above is collaboration with the enemy, TRIBAL rivalry for recognition and independence and so forth, imagine this, what would happen to all American Indians if any one of them joined the Japanese to fight against USA during WWII?

I’ll tell you what, we’d be reading about Native American in history books by now, after their total extermination, regardless what tribe they were from.

There is more racial tension in russian than there is in the United states.. Even then, both pale in comparison when compared to communist china and its human rights records...

What a nice and sparkling clean, nicely wrapped OPPINIOIN, so easily consumable, yet some prefer real food to Fast Food.

Care to elaborate with something a little more concrete then just a notion?

As for the Lakota indians seceding from the US. That is proven bunk. Since you didnt bother to look further into it, the rest of your claims are to be taken as "pure bunk", iskander.

Bunk? That’s news to me, once again, please be so kind to point me in the right direction, because all I have to do to read countless articles on Lakota Indians in just type it into a search engine.

Personally I read this article;

www.nationalledger.com...

It has a name (Russell Means), a picture and everything, and if you have “insider” information that the whole thing is some sort of a media plot, heck, this is ATS share it with all of us!

Russia has much more to worry about in those regards then the US does. We all know what happened to the soviet union once its collapse....

What do you know? Tell me I’m all goose bumps because I was actually there when it was happening, I saw the tanks, the guys with chain saws cutting power and everything, what do you got?

and let us not forget russias demographic crisis that could see a 50% cut in russias population by the year 2050...Russia has a first world birth rate, combined with a third world mortality rate....

And why is that? I know the facts, do you? Share them.

russia is a country that is dieing, a nation that would like to return to the old days...where the soviet union had america as its enemy number one...where military parades were a show of force, and what would strengthen national patriotism within the Union....That is all russia is doing with these military parades, nothing more, nothing less..russia is a country that is dieing, a nation that would like to return to the old days...

Well that’s a nice load of creative writing, yet all of it is just baseless opinions.

It is your right, so all the power to you, but you know what they say, some get it from the horses mouth, while the others shovel it from the other end.

Guess who’s holding the shovel? Take it easy on you back there, since you picked your self such a massive pile.

Its about restoring pride to a people who have no sense of direction. This is very dangerous for russia...hence the return of the military parades along with the banter coming out of moscow lately....

That pile is getting bigger, you might want to consider renting something with tracks.

This video below tells the truth, and the current mentality of many russians. There are 6 parts of it, all can be found on the side bar along with other videos. Its quite an interesting video that uses facts, rather then speculations, in regards to whats really happening to russia.

Finally! This is a great one!

This one we can really have fun with!

Let’s look into the collective works and the history of the Theroux family, writers, TV producers, etc.

Anybody cares to venture into the real world of think tanks, espionage and social engineering? A world in which such a profession is truly a family affair?

After looking into their collective works, one has to wonder, what’s with all the doom and gloom, and mainly the overwhelming focus on disempowering of the individual which is prevalent through out their literary and documentary works?

Question, what does the Paul Theroux has to do with Peace Corps , Bundesnachrichtendienst (German arm of CIA) ? How about Gloria Steinem? “The Killing of Hastings Banda,”, the list goes on.

ATS mods should jump on this and move this entire section into the conspiracy section, because guys like me are simply dying out.

West Coast, you just stepped on a land mine that’s over 60 years old, congradualtions!

Originally posted by West Coast

Originally posted by paraphi
reply to post by iskander

 

I'm wide awake Islander. This obsession with US propaganda is verging on silly and seems to be something you throw into the pot every time a fact gets in the way of your point!

Illegal Mexican labour is not slavery. The Soviet Union spend their entire time bleeding the nation dry to fund the Cold War. The Soviet Union collapsed. The West won.

Borat's a joke (but with some serious themes) and the actor is a Jew. The Soviet treatment of the Jews was atrocious - typical Soviet really. If the life of a Soviet Jew was so good why did som many emigrate? Oh yes I forget, it was , "US Propaganda".

I am not entirely sure of your assertion of my ignorance about the Native Americans, but I may well be more versed in their fate than you appreciate, but to be honest that is another topic, happened a long time and this is a forum about weapons.

Regards

Well put! It is not just "why they sought to migrate from the soviet union, its why do they still? In general, Russia is running a deficit with people going out of the country, versus people going into the country. And slavery in the US? Most of american athletes are BLACK. And we all know how americans like their sports. Slavery has ended, and has been dead for a while, only recently, a few decades ago did the discrimination of blacks die down. There are most certainly racist within the US. However, lets not paint a population of 300 mill with one brush.

I also find it interesting how in 2005 america accepted 50,000 meshket turks from russia because russia didnt view them as "white russians", they didnt want them. There is more racial tension in russian than there is in the United states.. Even then, both pale in comparison when compared to communist china and its human rights records...

As for the Lakota indians seceding from the US. That is proven bunk. Since you didnt bother to look further into it, the rest of your claims are to be taken as "pure bunk", iskander.

Russia has much more to worry about in those regards then the US does. We all know what happened to the soviet union once its collapse....and let us not forget russias demographic crisis that could see a 50% cut in russias population by the year 2050...Russia has a first world birth rate, combined with a third world mortality rate.....russia is a country that is dieing, a nation that would like to return to the old days...where the soviet union had america as its enemy number one...where military parades were a show of force, and what would strengthen national patriotism within the Union....That is all russia is doing with these military parades, nothing more, nothing less. Its about restoring pride to a people who have no sense of direction. This is very dangerous for russia...hence the return of the military parades along with the banter coming out of moscow lately....

This video below tells the truth, and the current mentality of many russians. There are 6 parts of it, all can be found on the side bar along with other videos. Its quite an interesting video that uses facts, rather then speculations, in regards to whats really happening to russia.

This is HIGHLY UNTRUE to the fullst degree, according to western sources, and western sponcered-Russian sources more than 5 million Russian died between 2003-2005, but there is NO DATA what so ever from Russian Government showing this, these are nothing but smear campains against Russia.

Iskander...long post, im going to splice it up a bit..

I never said anything about alcoholism, which is a very real thing in Russia that does put alot of people in the ground. That is somthing that the video I linkedto touched on a bit..

However, that is not the only problem facing russia in regards to demographics. There are more people leaving the country, then there are coming into it. I dont believe you touched on that, and while I might not have been clear enough, that was what i was getting at....

Now lets see.....

The difference is that while I was in Russia in 2007, a law was passed to immediately closed down ANY employer that hires illegal, while at the same time providing a system of labor registration and office of migrating laborer rights which is funded by the taxation of the employers.

Oh...and the US doesnt have such laws in place? Lets see how well that works out for russia...Im unconvinced that this will work.. I mean, the easy part is coming up with the law, the hard part is actually enforcing it. I dont see third world russia doing any better then america in these regards...

As to falling birth rates, I simply have to doubt the data that’s coming out, because with in my half year living there, all I’ve see is baby strollers and young children everywhere. Families actually provided with government grants to have more kids, and low interest rates on everything from bank loans, mortgages, etc.

Where abouts were you? Moscow perhaps? The "more babys for cash" is a sham that many russians see as unbeneficial. I could link sites that state exactly that...that it is a last second ditch effort to fill holes on a fast sinking ship.

Oh man, this is sheer ignorance and bigotry, and I am more then willing to stand my ground on this one.

And how exactly is it?

GOOD GREIF, what dimension does your imaginary existence takes place in?

So, your under the mistaken delusion that this still takes place today?

I can’t dignify that with a response

Perhaps, thats because you are trying your best to make a mountain out of a mole hill?

As for population of 300mil, Latinos are the ones that feed the population boom,

True and false. The US is now experiencing a "boomlet". White caucasion women are having around 2.1 babys per person, which is the gold standard, or magic number in which a population can sustain and replace itself. Hispanics are a big factor, but perhaps not as big a factor as you would like them to be?

and they have openly stated that they’ll take back California by simply out breeding the whites, which by 2020 will already be one of the minority groups, while the Latinos will be the majority.

Which is total rubbish. And your demographic statistics are preposterous.
"AZTLAN" has openly stated that they believe the southern US states were stolen from them. They are extremists who should not be taken very seriously....

Russia will and already is experiencing an influx in muslims. Perhaps in the not to distant future arabic will be russias "official language".

Bunk? That’s news to me, once again, please be so kind to point me in the right direction, because all I have to do to read countless articles on Lakota Indians in just type it into a search engine.

Personally I read this article;

www.nationalledger.com...

It has a name (Russell Means), a picture and everything, and if you have “insider” information that the whole thing is some sort of a media plot, heck, this is ATS share it with all of us!

We actually had this discussion here on ATS. The below was written by a fellow member.

Originally posted by Apsaroke
Kick this to the debunked side of the aisle.

The Lakotah have not withdrawn from their treaties. The group professing to have done this is not authorized to do so.

www.indiancountry.com...

www.rapidcityjournal.com...

As much as I was hoping for something like this to be a reality, this group seems to be more interested in destroying good-hearted people by feeding them fals hope and false information.

Be warned folks...nothing but a let down at the end of this path.

Its incredibly late where im at right now.. So im going to stop tonight.

reply to post by iskander


Isklander, you are out of order and beginning to to become hysterical. I would suggest you calm down and think about what you are posting before posting.

What you describe about Mexican slaves in the US is not slavery.

Regards

Originally posted by Lambo Rider
This is HIGHLY UNTRUE to the fullst degree, according to western sources, and western sponcered-Russian sources more than 5 million Russian died between 2003-2005, but there is NO DATA what so ever from Russian Government showing this, these are nothing but smear campains against Russia.

And perhaps you have source validation for your claims?

Its not just russia that has a demographic crisis, but the whole of europe as well.

reply to post by West Coast

Iskander...long post, im going to splice it up a bit..

Now that I see that you are serious, not a problem, my pleasure.

I never said anything about alcoholism, which is a very real thing in Russia that does put alot of people in the ground. That is somthing that the video I linkedto touched on a bit..

Alcoholism is a big problem, but it’s entirely different from the typical Western diagnosis.

There are 3 stages of alcoholisms, by the 3rd stage the patient does not eat solid foods and is able to only drink and metabolize alcohol.

Overwhelming majority of American alcoholics are in stage 2, which is a daily alcohol consumption that does not interfere with their daily duties. Just watch a TV series called “Mad Men” and see how that culture developed over the years.

Most Russian alcoholics are stage 1, or so called “functioning” alcoholics which go on binges that vary in intensity and time span.

Russian stage 3 alcoholics are usually the homeless, the desperate, etc.

By capita French consume a lot more alcohol they the Russians since they drink wine like water, while Russians drink a crap load of beer for a “casual sip”, and vodka for a “heavy hit”.

Most of the deaths by the way are attributed to drug/alcohol abuse which stems back to the late 80 through out three generations. Age groups are 50s to 30s.

Younger generation (20s) do drink a lot of beer but are much less effected by the binging habits of the previous generations.

However, that is not the only problem facing russia in regards to demographics. There are more people leaving the country, then there are coming into it. I dont believe you touched on that, and while I might not have been clear enough, that was what i was getting at....

It is true, people are leaving the country, but those people are the migrant workers that are simply not longer needed. Just look at the stats. The influx of professionals on the other hand shows an incredible industry growth. A whole lot of Russians that worked for Microsoft for example went back to Moscow with in the last couple of years.

Oh...and the US doesnt have such laws in place? Lets see how well that works out for russia...Im unconvinced that this will work.. I mean, the easy part is coming up with the law, the hard part is actually enforcing it. I dont see third world russia doing any better then america in these regards...

Naturally US does have the laws, and companies naturally keep insisting on tax cuts in order for them to afford worker status checks. The law exists, yet nobody checks if it’s being properly executed.

As far as Russia, on the façade side of the building in which I lived there was a grocery market, while across the street there was a medium size mall, kind of like Fred Meyers.

At the same time, right by the cross road there was a bazaar where individuals sold their produce, eggs, fruit, etc.

Right after the law was passed the bazaar was closed entirely, both for the reason of undocumented works and violation of the health codes.

The same happed through out the city, and as news reported through out the country. A lot of illegal Chinese merchants were politely asked to pack up and leave, and mind you they sold everything from batteries, apparel, footwear, electronics, cosmetics, toys, you name it.

With in one week all of that was either gone, or businesses had to document their activity and pay proper taxation rates.

Where abouts were you? Moscow perhaps? The "more babys for cash" is a sham that many russians see as unbeneficial. I could link sites that state exactly that...that it is a last second ditch effort to fill holes on a fast sinking ship.

I did stay in Moscow, and I liked it. It’s basically New York multiplied by a factor X. For the culture go to St. Petersberg. For the most of the time I stayed in Penza, a city which by Russian standards can be called provincial, since its population it just under 1 million.

“Babies for cash” as you put it is a government aid program, which I’ve seen work in action, since one of my neighbors had a second child, and they were in the process of purchasing a new apartment.

With out government benefits they would simply not be able to get a loan. From what I’ve seen, it simply works, because they don’t just hand them cash as it’s incorrectly portrayed in Western media, they provide social benefits.

Oh man, this is sheer ignorance and bigotry, and I am more then willing to stand my ground on this one.

And how exactly is it?

Part of it is economic segregation. “BLACK athletes” issue is so depressing I’m not going to go into it. Rome always had its hunger for gladiator spectacles, and it still does.

The new fad in boxing is putting up Russian boxers against African American champions. I can only imagine the type of sick satisfaction the bookies get when they see black boxers lose.

As for slavery, what do you think the percentage o black are of the 4 million US incorporated convicts?

The truth is simple, either it is racism or blacks just genetically predisposed to criminal behavior, and since I highly doubt that any respectful scientist will attempt to make such a claim, racism which results in incarceration is by definition slavery.

“only recently, a few decades ago did the discrimination of blacks die down.”

So, your under the mistaken delusion that this still takes place today?

Mistaken? I see where you’re going with this, and I’ll do it this way, if you’ll continue to deflect most of the debate directly to me and avoid basic facts, we’ll then you’ll see what I do in such cases, but for now,

Now a new study has exposed subtle but widespread housing discrimination directed against black Hurricane Katrina survivors:

civilliberty.about.com...

Perhaps, thats because you are trying your best to make a mountain out of a mole
hill?

Perhaps, you should inform your self prior to asking questions, answers to which are readily available, unless you prefer your food to be chewed for you, or if your intent is to drag this topic down by looping diversions.

Not going to happen.

True and false. The US is now experiencing a "boomlet". White caucasion women are having around 2.1 babys per person, which is the gold standard, or magic number in which a population can sustain and replace itself. Hispanics are a big factor, but perhaps not as big a factor as you would like them to be?

Oh, this is just cute, like the eyes of a child that just had its hand in a cookie jar and hopes that nobody noticed;

“but perhaps not as big a factor as you would like them to be?”

Me? No, not me, nothing personal here, just the topic at hand, and from now on let us keep it that way, agreed?

“White caucasion women are having around 2.1 babys per person”

Have you seen the movie called “Idiocracy”? You should look into the demographics of those Caucasian births, their general income and IQ levels. It’s harsh I know, but it’s true. Hey, Britney Spears, Ashlee Simpson, the gene pool isn’t exactly stellar if you know what I mean.

Hispanics? Again, why ask such questions when the issue has been around for YEARS.

Some statistics - www.isteve.com...

And the actual forum where the issue is discussed - www.city-data.com...

Which is total rubbish. And your demographic statistics are preposterous.
"AZTLAN" has openly stated that they believe the southern US states were stolen from them. They are extremists who should not be taken very seriously....

You seem to forget the US/Mexican war, in which the freedom loving, democratic America was on a colonial conquest, and marched all the way into Mexico City. One day after forced negotiations, and California becoming a US state, gold was “found” in California which in turn initiated the great “gold rush” that we all know about.

So the US/Mexican war was about GOLD, much as US/Iraq war is about BLACK GOLD. The cycles of history are painfully predictable to the ones that care to remember.

"AZTLAN" – humm… it was (and is) their land, much as America is the land on Native Americans. Gotta love the freedom loving democratic irony of that one. Life of freedom on the stolen land soaked in the blood of its original peoples.

Russia will and already is experiencing an influx in muslims. Perhaps in the not to distant future arabic will be russias "official language".

Another convoluted opinion? How about reality. The agenda behind Muslim “awareness” is to defuse further localized conflicts, and create a positive image for Muslims, considering the mutual hatred care of the Chechen wars.

Russians switched their approached and are going with the “befriending” politics rather then demonizing all Muslims as terrorists and blood thirsty murderers.

So far it’s working out for them very well, as ironic as it may be, it’s the Russian whoa re saying “make peace man, not war!”

We actually had this discussion here on ATS. The below was written by a fellow member.

All true, and both sources note that DIFFIRENT tribes are stating their positions, and clarifying that Russell Means speaks only for his group, all while ominously agreeing with his position that US has broken every agreement made. History always needs a rebel, and if Russell Means wants to pick up where Crazy Horse left of, all the power to him!

Who knows, maybe it really does take a real American to start a revolution. If they are going to start taking their land back, maybe average Americans will start taking back their rights and their country that was stolen from them, me included.

Its incredibly late where im at right now.. So im going to stop tonight.

Same here, let’s pick it up tomorrow.

About all russians in Russia who are muslim are from turkic decent. There has been a long history betweent he Turkic people and the Russians which dates all the way back to the 5th century. While Russia managed to eventually conquer the turkic states that doesnt mean they totally forgot theire language and are now speaking arabic.

If you look at the history of the turkic people and the russians you can see that there is a good posibillity for the 2 to live together in peace like in the past.

Originally posted by West Coast

Originally posted by Lambo Rider
This is HIGHLY UNTRUE to the fullst degree, according to western sources, and western sponcered-Russian sources more than 5 million Russian died between 2003-2005, but there is NO DATA what so ever from Russian Government showing this, these are nothing but smear campains against Russia.

And perhaps you have source validation for your claims?

Its not just russia that has a demographic crisis, but the whole of europe as well.

Yes if you use Google and look at all the site,they NEVER show the Russian Gov giving you a "Official" documents that say "x-amount of million people died this year" (Death Certificates/ Obichuaries) all you see is 148 Million then its 145 Million now its 143 Million, look at the FALSE CIA fact books that are printed every year about Russia's death rate/ pop-decline where are the MILLIONS of death certificates??? if one is to believe that in 2002 there were 146+ million and in 2005 if it is 143, thats a lose of 1 million a year, for 3 years, if you bothered to do a "backtrack" record check these declines are made up nothing FACTUAL.

[edit on 20-1-2008 by Lambo Rider]

if one is to believe that in 2002 there were 146+ million and in 2005 if it is 143, thats a lose of 1 million a year, for 3 years, if you bothered to do a "backtrack" record check these declines are made up nothing FACTUAL.

Come on Lambo Rider, don’t make anybody do math, that’s just cruel. One million deaths per year for a population of around 150 mil means BIG business for mortuaries, and new burial grounds that would be seen from space.

I wonder, can anybody here calculate the square footage (meters) of ground it would take to burry one million people given the standard Russian plot size? Then multiply bu three.

Cremation is not practiced in Russia by the way, so get your calculators out.

We've all gone off on a bit of a tangent here. I hope russia nothing but good. Its people deserve it. I didnt really care to get into an in depth convo like Mr. Iskander has defended with such passion. Im simply posting on a conspiracy board, and have lost alot of the "patience" I started out with, for that I am sorry.

Im not even an american per say, Im actually a german! I live in the US though for the time being, and am going to school here. I have russian roots as well. Beleive it or not, im related to Ivan the terrible.

Getting back on the thread topic. If russia wants to do there little military parades so be it. Iskander if you can take pics that would be awesome. Be sure to post them for us all to see. Good luck.

Whoever says that Russia is dying as a nation is completely wrong. Its rapidly turning into a capitalist country... and beware of that, because as capitalists they be able to do things they could have never done as the so-called "evil government" that was communism. Iskander your making great points here, keep it up.

reply to post by West Coast

We've all gone off on a bit of a tangent here. I hope russia nothing but good. Its people deserve it. I didnt really care to get into an in depth convo like Mr. Iskander has defended with such passion.

Passion? Wow, thanks, I didn’t know that these days speaking common sense and conveying first hand knowledge is considered passionate. As for defending, I’m just saying what I know, but I’m always wiling to get into an in-depth convo, with the ones that care to venture out of their familiar grounds to have a taste of that big scary foul smelling world.

Getting back on the thread topic. If russia wants to do there little military parades so be it.

Dare I ask if this explains such belittlement of the greatest victory and sacrifice of the 20th century?

Im not even an american per say, Im actually a german!

Is that it?

What’s totally ridiculous is what our (American) children are tough in schools about WWII. In fact, most of the documentary footage of Berlin they show was filmed by the Soviets. Remember that Swastika blown up on the Reichstag? Well, it’s the Russian that blew it up and filled it, yet not a single word is spoken about.

How about the victory parade in Berlin, when waves of Red Army soldier carried and through down the flags of the entire German Army, since over 80% of total German forces were annihilated by the Soviets?

No Mr. West Coast, for the Russians it’s not just a “little military parade”, it’s a day of remembrance of unimaginable sacrifices, heroism, and sheer will to survive.

Originally posted by iskander
reply to post by paraphi

 

I am trying to think of any advanced democracies who go in for this type of display, jack boots and all that. I am sure it will be impressive, but it is just a reminder that Russia has not grown up to be an advanced democracy..

I’ll attribute such baseless statements to the severe deficiencies of propagandized educational systems.

OK, here we go with iskander (aka russian, no soviet sycophant) again ...

Would that be your educational system you are referring to?

And then this just in. How does this info square with all your assertions?

article

There was no immediate comment from Nato about the exercise.

Mr Putin has used military manoeuvres, including controversial North Sea overflights, to revive domestic and international respect for Russia’s armed forces which were shattered by the chaos of the 1990s.

He has also boosted military spending, renewed long-range bomber missions and approved a plan to upgrade Russia’s nuclear attack forces, which he said was needed after Nato built up its forces close to Russia’s borders.

But some analysts note that while the sabre-rattling is popular at home, Russian military spending in absolute terms is substantially lower than that of China, Britain or France and less than a tenth of that of the United States.

Discipline is also still a major problem for Russia’s armed forces, which rely heavily on conscripts and outdated equipment.

So, based on this assessment, I would think NATO commanders would welcome russian er, soviet war games and parades. Why? Simple, after spending scarce military resources on all of those activities, the russians er, soviets wouldn't have much left to actually fight with.



[edit on 1/22/2008 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by iskander
reply to post by paraphi

 

I am trying to think of any advanced democracies who go in for this type of display, jack boots and all that. I am sure it will be impressive, but it is just a reminder that Russia has not grown up to be an advanced democracy..

I’ll attribute such baseless statements to the severe deficiencies of propagandized educational systems.

Russia has abolishes slavery before the Americans by the way, not to mention the fact that while Soviet women were breaking world records in supersonic fighters and flew space missions, all while in America black people were segregated, had to go to separate washrooms, drinking fountains, and sit a t the back of the bus, when they are not being chased beaten and lynched by mobs of drunken freedom loving patriots.

While to this day Americas are sold on the values of democracy, few actually know that USSR was comprised of many different republics and people of different nationalities, all of who had the opportunities of free education and carries with in the highest institutions of the state.

Out of endless examples here’s one that immediately came to mind, and with a qick search I immidiatly found his bio;

Hero of Soviet Union (31.10.1988), Honored test-pilot of USSR (1990), USSR space-pilot (1991), major general of aviation.

Born in Karaganda Region of Kazakhstan. Since 1965 served in army.

In 1969 graduated from Armavir high military aviation pilot school. Served in front-line units of Air Force (till 1974). In 1976 graduated from Test Pilot School. Same year became a test-pilot at aviation plant in Ulan-Ude city.

In 1976-92 worked as test pilot at A.I. Mikoyan EDB. Tested more than fifty plane types - MiG-23, MiG-25, MiG-27, MiG-29K and MiG-31 included.

In 1989 took the first in USSR carrier launch on MiG-29K aircraft.

In October of 1991 made a space flight on board of "Soyuz TM-12"spaceship and "Mir" orbital complex as member of international crew.

In 1992 T. Aubakirov became 1st Deputy Chairman of State Defense Committee in Republic of Kazakhstan. Since 1993 he is a General director of Kazakhstan National Aerospace Agency.

Awarded with Lenin Order, Order of October Revolution, medals.

At present Toktar is the Kazakhstan Republic President's advisor on defense, defense industry and space.

Being a Kazakh, Toktar Aubakirovs nationality would be equivalent to a Native American, and I sure as heck don’t remember any Native America test pilots, or just plain pilots for that matter.

There’s democracy for you.

That's one of the best posts I have read in a long time, on any message board. Good job.

-Vin

reply to post by centurion1211

OK, here we go with iskander (aka russian, no soviet sycophant) again ...

Pardon me? I’m not exactly following you here;

Also known as Russian, no soviet sycophant?

How do you mean? As a swindler, slanderer, self serving suck-up?

Ws that supposed to be an insult of some sort?

If it was, at least please make clear enough to follow.

Would that be your educational system you are referring to?

No, when I went to school we were expected to actually learn and do things like homework.

And then this just in. How does this info square with all your assertions?

Well, I’d like to know who those “some analysts” are, would you?

Because “some experts” say that Rome was built by pillaging and stealing.

So, based on this assessment, I would think NATO commanders would welcome russian er, soviet war games and parades.

“russian er, soviet war games and parades”? - What that sarcasm or confusion?

It is rather strange, but here on ATS there are a few members that to this day can’t tell the difference between Russia and USSR.

Is this your predicament?

Why? Simple, after spending scarce military resources on all of those activities, the russians er, soviets wouldn't have much left to actually fight with.

That is very interesting, because as per CIA fact book, Russian defense budget is classified, and nobody actually any figures that can even remotely tell how much is spent and on what.

Do you have the budget numbers?

p.s. While you at it, can you check the Russian economy growth rate for me, because today our (American) market keeps falling and the Canadian dollar is actually worth more then a US dollar, and I’m thinking of investing into Russian energy companies, or maybe metals, copper or aluminum, who knows, all those possibilities!

Originally posted by iskander
Passion? Wow, thanks, I didn’t know that these days speaking common sense and conveying first hand knowledge is considered passionate. As for defending, I’m just saying what I know, but I’m always wiling to get into an in-depth convo, with the ones that care to venture out of their familiar grounds to have a taste of that big scary foul smelling world.

That was a compliment..you turned it into an argument..

Russia does face a demographic crisis...thats fact. Russia, though still very much so powerful, will also never rival america for supreme power ever again. That is fact...

Is that it?

What’s totally ridiculous is what our (American) children are tough in schools about WWII. In fact, most of the documentary footage of Berlin they show was filmed by the Soviets. Remember that Swastika blown up on the Reichstag? Well, it’s the Russian that blew it up and filled it, yet not a single word is spoken about.

How about the victory parade in Berlin, when waves of Red Army soldier carried and through down the flags of the entire German Army, since over 80% of total German forces were annihilated by the Soviets?

No Mr. West Coast, for the Russians it’s not just a “little military parade”, it’s a day of remembrance of unimaginable sacrifices, heroism, and sheer will to survive.

I also recall hearing stories of how soviet soldiers raped and tortured german women, as a "pay back" to what german soldiers did to russian women. And eye for an eye right? I also remember soviet union dictating what germans could and couldnt do....The soviet union was far from being a "pussy cat".

reply to post by vinrock


Thank you! It really is refreshing to her something positive on this forum!

p.s. just to cover by behind a bit, as I mentioned in other posts I use a word processor because ATS post window is just a bit to small for my eyes, I’ve always been a bit dyslexic, and I have to use a wireless keyboard (Gyration model, the keys do not always respond as I type very fast), so unfortunately typos and auto spelling errors pop-up rather frequently, and as much as I would like to catch and edit them out, waving this wireless mouse around is a bit tedious, so please my apologies to everyone.