“The tanks will return to Red Square on May 9th 2008”

The last Red Square May 9th Victory Day of the Great Patriotic War parade took place in the Soviet Russia, back in 1990.

For the first time in 18 years the bricks of Red Square will once again endure a full military parade with the rumble of armored regiments, PVO (Tunguska/TOR/BUK/S400?), strategic nuclear forces (Transporter Erector Launcher Topol-M), other major forces, and will feature over flights by various RuAF aircraft including Tu-160.


www.lenta.ru...

awesome!

i would love to see that.

reply to post by tomcat ha


Hopefully I’ll be in Moscow by May, so I’ll try to tape the parade.

reply to post by iskander


I am trying to think of any advanced democracies who go in for this type of display, jack boots and all that. I am sure it will be impressive, but it is just a reminder that Russia has not grown up to be an advanced democracy.

Regards

just to puff the people up internally. whats the point??

blegh

what is a advanced democracy?

If the netherlands is a advanced democracy then hurray the world is screwed.

reply to post by paraphi

I am trying to think of any advanced democracies who go in for this type of display, jack boots and all that. I am sure it will be impressive, but it is just a reminder that Russia has not grown up to be an advanced democracy..

I’ll attribute such baseless statements to the severe deficiencies of propagandized educational systems.

Russia has abolishes slavery before the Americans by the way, not to mention the fact that while Soviet women were breaking world records in supersonic fighters and flew space missions, all while in America black people were segregated, had to go to separate washrooms, drinking fountains, and sit a t the back of the bus, when they are not being chased beaten and lynched by mobs of drunken freedom loving patriots.

While to this day Americas are sold on the values of democracy, few actually know that USSR was comprised of many different republics and people of different nationalities, all of who had the opportunities of free education and carries with in the highest institutions of the state.

Out of endless examples here’s one that immediately came to mind, and with a qick search I immidiatly found his bio;

Hero of Soviet Union (31.10.1988), Honored test-pilot of USSR (1990), USSR space-pilot (1991), major general of aviation.

Born in Karaganda Region of Kazakhstan. Since 1965 served in army.

In 1969 graduated from Armavir high military aviation pilot school. Served in front-line units of Air Force (till 1974). In 1976 graduated from Test Pilot School. Same year became a test-pilot at aviation plant in Ulan-Ude city.

In 1976-92 worked as test pilot at A.I. Mikoyan EDB. Tested more than fifty plane types - MiG-23, MiG-25, MiG-27, MiG-29K and MiG-31 included.

In 1989 took the first in USSR carrier launch on MiG-29K aircraft.

In October of 1991 made a space flight on board of "Soyuz TM-12"spaceship and "Mir" orbital complex as member of international crew.

In 1992 T. Aubakirov became 1st Deputy Chairman of State Defense Committee in Republic of Kazakhstan. Since 1993 he is a General director of Kazakhstan National Aerospace Agency.

Awarded with Lenin Order, Order of October Revolution, medals.

At present Toktar is the Kazakhstan Republic President's advisor on defense, defense industry and space.

Being a Kazakh, Toktar Aubakirovs nationality would be equivalent to a Native American, and I sure as heck don’t remember any Native America test pilots, or just plain pilots for that matter.

There’s democracy for you.

reply to post by last time here

just to puff the people up internally. whats the point??

last time here, I can only hope…

In any case, the point is to proudly celebrate the victory over Nazi Germany, which took the most incredible sacrifice of all Soviet people, resulted in tens of millions of deaths, destruction of over 60% of civilian and industrial capacity, and destruction of over 80% of TOTAL Nazi forces.

It’s a matter of pride and recognition of the sacrifices made in order to survive and win the Great Patriotic War.


Pick up a book and educate your self.

"Wonder's why we don't have a military parade in America....?" I think America should have a military parade, having robots and m1a2's side by side lol.

Originally posted by iskander
I’ll attribute such baseless statements to the severe deficiencies of propagandized educational systems.

Russia has abolishes slavery before the Americans by the way, not to mention the fact that while Soviet women were breaking world records in supersonic fighters and flew space missions, all while in America black people were segregated, had to go to separate washrooms, drinking fountains, and sit a t the back of the bus, when they are not being chased beaten and lynched by mobs of drunken freedom loving patriots.

[... and on and on...]

I am not an American, so this diatribe has no relevance. We all know that the US was quite late to abolish slavery, that the native Americans were dealt a poor hand and that the US was until quite recently a nation of two colours, but that is history – a long time ago. I suppose it would be inconvenient for you if I were to mention the long list of modern era affronts to civilisation that have belched forth from Moscow even if we ignored WW2 – but there are those who think Stalin was a big cuddly bear and that Soviet communism was really good for everyone.

On topic. My point (perhaps not eloquently put) was that democracies of significance don’t go in for all these goose-stepping military parades / machismo. I wonder whether these parades are more a message to the general populace that the jack boot is never far from the neck, so to speak.

Anyway, isn’t Borat the most famous Kazakh? At least he was allowed to travel to the US!

Regards

reply to post by paraphi

I am not an American, so this diatribe has no relevance. We all know that the US was quite late to abolish slavery, that the native Americans were dealt a poor hand and that the US was until quite recently a nation of two colours, but that is history – a long time ago.

Well, I’m an American, and with complete certainty I can tell you that what you’ve just said IS American propaganda.

USA has NEVER abolished slavery, it only transformed it into another concept, all while staying true to its original colonial origins.

Illegal Mexican SLAbor is literally feeding the country.

You are also SEVERLY misinformed about American Indians;

Lakota Indians Secede from the US, Break Treaty
By Lynda Johnson
Dec 21, 2007

\www.nationalledger.com...

Southwest shall secede from U.S., prof predicts

www.unm.edu...

Does Hawaii Want To Secede From The Union?

www.eagleforum.org...

I suppose it would be inconvenient for you if I were to mention the long list of modern era affronts to civilisation that have belched forth from Moscow even if we ignored WW2 – but there are those who think Stalin was a big cuddly bear and that Soviet communism was really good for everyone.

Do you have any information on post WWII 3rd world country aid and development? How about statistics of s vaccinations? Building of power plants, water systems, sewage treatment plants, and other general infrastructure?

Back in the late 80s one American official said something to this effect;

“If only Soviets did not pretend to be Mother Teresa and waste all that effort on building hospitals and power plants in all those 3rd world countries, maybe they would have enough resources left to keep their own population happy.”

By the way, before the ‘Evil empire” invaded Afghanistan, they spent 25 YEARS building the infrastructure of the ENTIRE country.

That includes; roads, housing, schools, hospitals, public transportation system, universities, power plants, water, etc.

When I for the first time looked into how much they invested into the developing world, LITERALLY, I had to question why they bother if they can just roll anything they wanted with thousands of their tanks.

When Afghani war lords were loosing power in Afghanistan, and made a deal with CIA, acts of violence began occurring first in the provinces.

Things like a bunch of angry and worked up Afghani men showing up in a Soviet built hospital, take all of their women and children out, kill and decapitate all Russian doctors/staff, and burn the building to the ground, because the “infidels” have touched their women.

Take a guess who put them up to it?

India and China are among the larger benefactors of Soviet aid, and with out it, they would have been colonized to this day.

On topic. My point (perhaps not eloquently put) was that democracies of significance don’t go in for all these goose-stepping military parades / machismo. I wonder whether these parades are more a message to the general populace that the jack boot is never far from the neck, so to speak.

Anyway, isn’t Borat the most famous Kazakh? At least he was allowed to travel to the US!

Borat is a fictional character created by an Jewish comedian who’s never BEEN to Kazakhstan, and after Kazakh people took offense in his slanderous portrayal of their country, they invited him for a visit, and naturally he declined.

In his “film” Kazakhs were actually Romanians to whom he simply lied to by not telling them the true nature of his “feature”.

The main focus point of the “comedy” was the supposed anti-Semitic and brutish/backwards nature of the Kazakhs, an image which is completely manufactured.

Incidentally, this “comedy” came shortly after Kazakh government refused to fold under US government pressure to allow permanent American military bases on Kazakh territory.

paraphi , isn’t that just interesting how propaganda really works and how gullible people really get when they don’t think for them selves but let the likes of Sacha Baron Cohen to “entertain” them?

Seen “Wag the Dog” lately? They are laughing right in YOUR FACE!

This should be a sobering read for you;

The Borat Doctrine

www.newyorker.com...

If you are too lazy to do it for your self, I’ll do it for you.

BORAT – is a fictional character who is LIAR even in the realm his own fiction, manufactured specifically to propagandize the gullible masses that are slaves to their daily entertainment diet.

This is REALITY;

It was partly Borat’s casual but relentless anti-Semitism that led Vassilenko to object publicly, in a letter to The Hill, a Washington weekly. (In real life, Cohen is an observant Jew, but the Anti-Defamation League also condemned him, arguing that “the irony may have been lost on some of the audience.”) “He says things that make people think that Kazakhstan really is a backward country,” Vassilenko said last week from his office in Washington. In Borat’s Kazakhstan, Jews attack people with their claws, and “Dirty Jew” is a popular film. But the real Kazakhstan has long embraced its thriving Jewish community, according to the National Conference on Soviet Jewry, and earlier this month the country dedicated the largest synagogue in Central Asia. “The President of the country came down, as well as the chief rabbi of Israel,” Vassilenko said. “There were all kinds of rabbis from around the world, and a New Yorker. He was not a rabbi, but you might be interested to know the name. The name is Ronald Lauder.”

Are you awake yet?

reply to post by iskander


I'm wide awake Islander. This obsession with US propaganda is verging on silly and seems to be something you throw into the pot every time a fact gets in the way of your point!

Illegal Mexican labour is not slavery. The Soviet Union spend their entire time bleeding the nation dry to fund the Cold War. The Soviet Union collapsed. The West won.

Borat's a joke (but with some serious themes) and the actor is a Jew. The Soviet treatment of the Jews was atrocious - typical Soviet really. If the life of a Soviet Jew was so good why did som many emigrate? Oh yes I forget, it was , "US Propaganda".

I am not entirely sure of your assertion of my ignorance about the Native Americans, but I may well be more versed in their fate than you appreciate, but to be honest that is another topic, happened a long time and this is a forum about weapons.

Regards

Originally posted by iskander
Russia has abolishes slavery before the Americans by the way

But, more to the point.

While the styles may be different, all nation like to show off their military hardware.

reply to post by iskander



In reply to you I hope that you will be able to record it and upload it for us. Do it yourself or get it off the news, either way works. It'll be a treat for us.

Originally posted by paraphi
reply to post by iskander

 

I'm wide awake Islander. This obsession with US propaganda is verging on silly and seems to be something you throw into the pot every time a fact gets in the way of your point!

Illegal Mexican labour is not slavery. The Soviet Union spend their entire time bleeding the nation dry to fund the Cold War. The Soviet Union collapsed. The West won.

Borat's a joke (but with some serious themes) and the actor is a Jew. The Soviet treatment of the Jews was atrocious - typical Soviet really. If the life of a Soviet Jew was so good why did som many emigrate? Oh yes I forget, it was , "US Propaganda".

I am not entirely sure of your assertion of my ignorance about the Native Americans, but I may well be more versed in their fate than you appreciate, but to be honest that is another topic, happened a long time and this is a forum about weapons.

Regards

Well put! It is not just "why they sought to migrate from the soviet union, its why do they still? In general, Russia is running a deficit with people going out of the country, versus people going into the country. And slavery in the US? Most of american athletes are BLACK. And we all know how americans like their sports. Slavery has ended, and has been dead for a while, only recently, a few decades ago did the discrimination of blacks die down. There are most certainly racist within the US. However, lets not paint a population of 300 mill with one brush.

I also find it interesting how in 2005 america accepted 50,000 meshket turks from russia because russia didnt view them as "white russians", they didnt want them. There is more racial tension in russian than there is in the United states.. Even then, both pale in comparison when compared to communist china and its human rights records...

As for the Lakota indians seceding from the US. That is proven bunk. Since you didnt bother to look further into it, the rest of your claims are to be taken as "pure bunk", iskander.

Russia has much more to worry about in those regards then the US does. We all know what happened to the soviet union once its collapse....and let us not forget russias demographic crisis that could see a 50% cut in russias population by the year 2050...Russia has a first world birth rate, combined with a third world mortality rate.....russia is a country that is dieing, a nation that would like to return to the old days...where the soviet union had america as its enemy number one...where military parades were a show of force, and what would strengthen national patriotism within the Union....That is all russia is doing with these military parades, nothing more, nothing less. Its about restoring pride to a people who have no sense of direction. This is very dangerous for russia...hence the return of the military parades along with the banter coming out of moscow lately....

This video below tells the truth, and the current mentality of many russians. There are 6 parts of it, all can be found on the side bar along with other videos. Its quite an interesting video that uses facts, rather then speculations, in regards to whats really happening to russia.

reply to post by paraphi

I'm wide awake Islander. This obsession with US propaganda is verging on silly and seems to be something you throw into the pot every time a fact gets in the way of your point!

paraphi, it’s not an obsession, it’s my previous profession. I used to professionally work for a propaganda making outfit called FOX networks, maybe you heard of it?

I was there during the takeover, and have seen first hand how fast a run of-the-mill media outlet is transformed into a finely tuned propaganda machine.

After WTO in Seattle, and having seen what really happened with my own eyes, I took my stand and resigned.

Years after fate brought me to people from Cinema Libre Studio and the documentary they were releasing at that very time. The film is called “Outfoxed”, I was invited to the premiere, (it was Thursday as I recall), and during Q&A expected plant from FOX accused the makers of the film of making up lies, so naturally I had to stand up and have my say.

For that I was fired from my job, since LA Times was one of my clients at the time.

You want to talk propaganda? Be careful, you just might stumble upon real life, and how fast the rug can be pulled right from under you.

Illegal Mexican labour is not slavery.

Mexican labor IS slavery, and that is a FACT. California growers hire illegal for a season, let them work, and right after the harvest is gathered, they call INS which then raids the squatter camps and simply tosses all of the Mexican workers back across the border.

That I have seen with my OWN EYES!

Mexican gangs, MS13 in particular were often “left alone” by LA gang units as long as they kept illegal squatter camps in check.

When MS13 got to big so companies started literally bussing Mexican workers across the border.

paraphi, you don’t know JACK about how bad slavery is in California, and I seriously recommend that you at least peek at what’s been going on before saying something as ridicules that illegal Mexican labor is not slavery.

The runners, Mexican mafia “coyotes” that run the border, tax the workers on the work they are supposed to do in US, and if they don’t pay up their family gets the brunt of it.

Another thing I recommend you do, is pick any American city, go to Home Depot, walk up to a Mexican and tell him that there is no slavery in USA, and stay around until it gets dark. May your confused and ill-informed soul rest in peace.

The Soviet Union spend their entire time bleeding the nation dry to fund the Cold War.

You got stats? I’ve been flying to Russia since 1991, visited factories, (and their bomb shelters) and know first hand what happened there. What do you got?

How about humanitarian aid through out the Cold War? Why don’t you give us all a tally up on that one?

The Soviet Union collapsed. The West won.

Say that to a Russian, and in order to avoid generalizing, I’ll clarify, not just any Russian, but the one who was there in 1991, building barricades and crawling up on the tanks, demanding change from his government, and he’ll just look at you in your shorts and sneakers, with out saying a darn thing, because to him you’re a just a vintage Twinkie still in its original plastic wrapping.

And by the way, what you call “the West” ceased to exist since 1991, because Europeans immediately began work on assuring their independence by creating what today is knows as EUROPIAN UNION.

I would say they did a bang up job, because while our economy resembles Titanic in a stage where the musicians are playing their last tune, all while the rich are already having their lavish life boat cocktail parties.

EU= economic growth.

Dollar = collapse of an Empire.

Up to speed yet?

Borat's a joke (but with some serious themes) and the actor is a Jew. The Soviet treatment of the Jews was atrocious - typical Soviet really.

Are you freaking kidding me? Do you even know who Soviets are? How about a general description and the names of their top leaders and muscle starting from the cue of the 1918 and murder of the Romanov royal family? There was an inscription written by one of the executioners right there on the wall in front of which the Russian Royal family was ruthlessly gunned down, including the children.

What language was that inscription in and what did it say?

Or how about this one, when religion was proclaimed as the opiate of the burzhui (look it up), and who gave the order to blow up Russian Orthodox Churches through out the entire country, while not a single Synagogue was touched.

You are really clueless, and I seriously recommend that you educate your self because this debate will quickly turn into a mine field for you regardless of how much tap-dancing you’ll be willing to do.

If the life of a Soviet Jew was so good why did som many emigrate? Oh yes I forget, it was , "US Propaganda".

Why don’t you look into that one for your self, do some research as what ATS members should to do before they shoot their mouths off, and then I’ll tell you how it really was, because two of my friends just happen to be Jews that emigrated from the Soviet Union.

I am not entirely sure of your assertion of my ignorance about the Native Americans, but I may well be more versed in their fate than you appreciate, but to be honest that is another topic, happened a long time and this is a forum about weapons.

Yet again, I happen to have a friend who’s a full blooded Flathead Indian who was born on the reservation and now lives in Seattle. (Seattle, Tukwila, Tacoma, Salish – all Indian names that have a meaning, find out what they are). I’ve been to a few powwows my self to say the least.

I rode a Pinto, and I don’t mean a car, I’m talking war pint. I was in pain for days after that, even a reiner saddle feelt like a LazyBoy after that.

I’m seriously considering going to Dan and asking him for a passage right, so I can go to the Lakota in hopes for a sweat lodge invitation.

paraphi, seriously, you are way out of your element here. It’ll be the same as me talking smack about Australian aboriginals of whom I know only from National geographic, and maybe a few focumentaries/films, but watching “Crocodile Dundee” sure as heck does not give me the right to judge them as a people and pretend that I know who they are and how they live.

You are correct, this is a weapons forum, and the mind is the most fearsome and terrible weapon of them all, so start learning how to use one.

Cheers, mate.

reply to post by GradyPhilpott

But, more to the point.

While the styles may be different, all nation like to show off their military hardware.

It’s true, but we must understand how deep and fundamental this is for the Russians, because they are not just showing of their hardware, it’s the victory day parade of the Great Patriotic War.

Pride, respect and recognition of their accomplishments is what it’s going to be all about this May. That means that their new generation is strong, driven and motivated, by what exactly remains to be seen, but from my last visit it’s by far not just blind greed. They have an agenda, and they are firmly on the way to accomplishing their goals.

reply to post by amanbuthimself

In reply to you I hope that you will be able to record it and upload it for us. Do it yourself or get it off the news, either way works. It'll be a treat for us.

Man I do really hope that I can wrap up my current happenings so I can make it there in time.

The reason I want to be there personally is to get the feel if it’s going to be an attempt by the old guys to bring back the glory days, or if it’s going to be a breath of fresh air in recognition of Chechen veterans and a calculated show of a rebirth and a passage for the new generation.

I am trying to think of any advanced democracies who go in for this type of display, jack boots and all that. I am sure it will be impressive, but it is just a reminder that Russia has not grown up to be an advanced democracy..

Well in the US, there is a fair bit of martial display.
Dunno if you've ever been to a Fleet Week in NYC, but it's pretty impressive

Of course, it's hard for the US to put on a big military display like this in our capital - our forces are usually too busy invading some unfortunate Third World kleptocracy that maybe looked at us funny, and putting on an impressive military display in their capital

Russia doesn't seem to have that problem, I guess because it's forces are generally concerned with actually defending their country, unlike our own.

[edit on 1/20/08 by xmotex]

by Jamiethegreat
"Wonder's why we don't have a military parade in America....?"

We put on these type of displays ALL the time. All year round. Its called "Air Shows"




I have been to Russia - just after the fall of communism - in 1993. I visited Red Square. It would be cool to see their "parade". I wonder how different Russia is NOW from when I was there in 93. Id love to go back and find out!!